OK.
Sure, and I agree that cross-training is an excellent idea to be able to view the shortcomings of an art through a less-filtered lens. Many people don't get that perspective that one can only get from training something else.
I don't have much CMA experience, but I have trained with others enough to know that there can be fairly different ways to create power in strikes. Some styles typically show kicks starting from the foot or knee, and others show them starting from the hip - or even the shoulders.
I'll try to give a brief description of how we generate power in the system I study, Tibetan White Crane. We use a turning and pivot of the entire body, starting with the feet, to drive our various punches. We really do hit with the entire body. I know that most systems will claim that they pivot and put the body behind their punches, and it's true, they do that. But I think in White Crane we emphasize this to a greater extent, pay a lot of attention to it, and drill it to a more extreme extent than other systems do. Once you learn to do this with large, almost exaggerated movements, you are then able to shorten the movement while still generating the same type of power. But you need to go thru the learning and developmental stages of the big movements first, before you can be effective with the smaller movements. Getting the stances right, so you don't wobble and you stay rooted is extremely important in how we generate this power.
I feel that my experience in the Chinese arts gives me some advantages that can carry into my kenpo as well. Kenpo forms are kind of funny. Many of them are actually made up of the self defense techs that comprise the curriculum. Doing Short 3? Start with Two-Headed Serpent to 12:00, then Circling Elbows stepping to 3:00...etc. (Tracy's background, you might not recognize our tech names). It's easy to mentally compartmentalize these pieces of the form and just think of them as the SD tech. While doing this, it's easy to forget to pay attention to the details, while thinking, "Ok, now I do tech XYZ to this angle..."
Chinese forms are different. Chinese systems do not typically have a list of SD techs like kenpo has. Instead, we have our basic techniques and methods of generating power, and we have our forms. The movements and combinations in the forms have definite useful interpretations, but you do not go into learning the form having already learned what that particular combo is for. It's looser, with more room for creative interpretation of how to apply it. I think that creates a different mindset. It encourages the analyzation of every little movement, to make it just right, rather than thinking about plunking a chunk of previously learned movement into the next part the way kenpo forms can do. Not sure if I'm describing this clearly. But I feel my analyzation of my Chinese forms has been more thorough, because of how they are taught.
But once I woke up to this, I started taking the same analytical approach with my kenpo kata. This isn't to say that my kenpo instructor glosses over these details or doesn't go in depth with the form. It's just that the emphasis is different, and I think it took, like you mention, the different perspective to reinforce for me, the best way of looking at it.
Interesting point here, and this may be where the kata/no kata point gets lost. Perhaps this isn't a either/or scenario, but one of timing (hello ToD!
). My experience really has been pretty much the opposite ie; seeing people that have some kata but no bag work do poorly when striking the bag. You seem to be coming from a bit more advanced point, where one has some kata AND some bag work, and use the kata to reinforce your bag work. Does that sound right? If so, then I can more understand your POV here, although we are approaching it from differing 'timings'.
It seems to me that these are exercises that need to be ongoing and simultaneous, but somehow the base needs to be established first. You work basics and kata to develop the base, then you strengthen the base and develop the ability to hit, on the bag. You keep working the basics and kata to continue the development, and keep working the bag to put the basics under pressure of contact. They work hand-in-hand. I feel that you need to take the time to develop the base first, however, before you jump on the bag. If you hit the bag before you have some level of base, then you don't understand how to root, when you hit the bag. I think that is the main difference in how we are looking at it. Initially, develop the base without the bag. But then, bagwork goes hand-in-hand with the other stuff. Fundamentals of all kinds, hand strikes, kicks, combos, need to be worked on the bag, but you need to make sure you are rooted with a strong foundation for every strike you land, or your founation is weak and you bleed away your power.
I think the same goes with sparring and other partnering drills. If you do that too soon, without a foundation, it all falls apart because the chaos of that kind of encounter makes it difficult to hold the foundation together. You end up jumping around and throwing random stuff that does not follow the methods and techniques of your system. As I said earlier, it just becomes brawling, which can be effective in its own way, but isn't kenpo. If you have a strong foundation, you can hold it together better, while sparring or partnering
I can agree with this to a point, but realizing that martial power requires something other than kata. This is where I personally see other methods being more useful. I suppose you could say I regard it as "cutting out the middle man".
again, I never said kata alone. It all goes hand-in-hand, but I think the order in which it is trained is important. Train basics, stances and footwork, punches, kicks, as a solo exercise to develop the base. Then work the bag to learn how to maintain integrity of the techniques while actually striking something. Then you can partner and spar, and maintain the integrity of the techniques while under the more chaotic pressure of that kind of engagement.
I guess I feel that the foundations built in kata, compared to other, more resistant work, are so fundamentally different that they are not really comparable.
It is my opinion that they are so different because people throw them out the window when they start to spar. If people are going to learn a sophisticated system like kenpo, then they should figure out how to use their kenpo in their sparring. If they throw out their kenpo and just spar like a kickboxer or something, then they have given up on their kenpo.
Sparring is a weird thing, and there are different types of sparring. I think the open, duellist sparring isn't always the best kind for kenpo, because kenpo was really a self-defense art and the SD techs are designed with that in mind. I think partnering drills that take a more SD focused approach make more sense, considering what kenpo was designed to deal with. When you get into a ring to compete, or spar in that manner, the kenpo methodologies just don't work so well in that approach. So kenpo people turn into kickboxers instead, and they throw their kenpo out the window.
Thank you. I hope this has clarified my position for you.
I think we've still got a difference in how we look at things, but I appreciate the discussion. It's more fun to share ideas and perspectives than argue about perceived insults that may or may not have been intended. Thanks.
