What is it with you people and "formal instruction"?

[SwordSoulSteve]

I see no purpose in continuing this conversation in its current direction. I know that many of you feel that I am a stupid, self centered delinquent, but perhaps as I get older I'll grow up a bit and see that you are indeed right, and I must learn in the way that it is intended to be taught. Chances are that I simply haven't reached that level of maturity yet, and I might never.

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

By the way, does anyone know of any links for clips of students/masters of sword arts sparring or practicing kata?

 

[Gene Williams]

Find a sword school, I mean a real one, traditional. Go there and tell one of the seniors that you would like to do some kumitachi and that you believe that your made up sword stuff is superior to his. Be serious, not flippant, and be courteous (this may be difficult for you). Many will probably refuse you, but there will be one somewhere who will take you up on it. You will use bokken (that's a wooden sword), so you won't get cut. Then you can prove to yourself and at least one traditionalist that your made up stuff is superior. It won't take long...a step or two and you'll be on your way to the ER. Do you have medical insurance? A will?

ps If you can't find any traditional swordsmen who will take you up on it, I know of several who are maverick and mean enough to do so (most swordsmen are polite and do not accept challenges). I can direct you to them or give you their information (with their permission, of course)

 

[Shu2jack]

Steve, I understand what you are saying and I think you are on the right track, but you are missing a piece to the puzzle that others on this forum are trying to give you.

"Traditionalists" should not be arrogent or look down on someone just because of how they train. They can disagree with it and thing it is flat-out wrong, but nobody should simply be putting you down without cause. (Though you are giving people great cause to do so.)

You are also correct that one should train and fight in a way that suits your body and that martial artists change the arts all the time. The difference between you and them is that they have a solid base to work from and can articulate what they know and WHY it works. Yes, you could get decent at training yourself, but you would develop slower, lack certain knowledge, and not have a strong foundation to grow from other than "IT JUST WORKS!!".

My suggestion is to go to a school and train in an instructor's method, wheather you agree with it or not. Continue to do this and trust in your instructor untill you reach the rank of black belt or equiviliant. In most schools, a black belts means you have "mastered" or at least understand the basics. From there, you can grow and start to make the art work for you.

I say this from personal expereince. I have been studying TKD for 12 years since I was 11. For a long time I did everything like my instructor. How I kicked, block, struck, moved, etc. After about 6 years I watched other instructors in the school and started really exploring the techniques myself. I noticed that other instructors under my instructor kicked slightly different. I started kicking slightly different than my instructor. I used to prefer to shorten my chamber for a side kick (shorter than what my instructor, thus I used to) so I could deliver the kick faster. For me, the sacrifice of a small amount of power was worth it because I could deliver the kick faster. It worked for me because of my body. About 2 1/2 months ago I tore part of my muscle from my leg. There is no need for an operation, but my leg speed, strength, flexiblity, balance, etc. is reduced along with leg endurance.

If I had to suffer an injury like this at any point of my life, I am glad it is now. I am young enough to overcome it (22 years old), and because I have spent 12 years studying my art under a traditional system I know the basics well enough to know how to modify my kick and still have it be effective. Because I studied formally I gained a solid base under good instruction, I understand why a kick works and the principles of kicking/power, and I learned how to modifiy techniques to suit different people from my expereince in teaching different people. So while I am a "gimp" at times, after I warm up I can still give someone a bloody nose with my kicks. Not only has my "formal" training helped me overcome my injury, it will help me as I explore the arts and continue to gain knowledge and figure out how to make techniques work for me.

 

[arnisador]

With whom are you working out? You must need practice partners, right? You surely couldn't develop a useful sword system without someone to test it against--and they'd need to be skilled for it to be useful training. If you're practicing in the air or against untrained teenagers, you can't be learning much.

 

[Hyaku]

Lol well the forum has me posted as a white belt but I'm happy with that. I wear mine to hold my saya and give me good back support with all the heavy hip work we do

Because its an MA baord I suppose people tend to come over rather strong.
I did Karate for quite a while and myself though there was a a bit of an egotistical macho image I felt was unnecessary. Perhaps this was just my particular group. Then I went to a Kendo class. shaking hands, big smiles all round. "Ah come in take of your shoes and socks come in, join in" etc.
Then they put on Bogu and I was shocked at the ferociousness that was shown. Then they took of the bogu and sure enough two gentlemen were still there. No arrogancy whatsoever. Wow I thought I want some more of this (and I still do).

Also there has always been this talk of Kobudo snobbery. Some will even tell say, "You cant learn outside Japan or dish out lessons like sacred pieces of information or an expensive medicine. Those that do power trips and like the certificates etc

Its simply not the case. Find a good Dojo, get stuck and you will make some good friends.

Hundreds and hundreds of years have shown there are in actuall fact tried and tested methods of practice. If you really have a lot a of natural ability you can channel it in and will go far. If you want to learn something new, learn some thing old. Pop along somewhere and practice for a while then post here and tell us what you think.

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

Ok guys, Thank you for your posts, but I'm done here. It seems I have directly offended some of you, and for that, I'm sorry. I have no intention of bringing up a topic of debate so disagreeable as this or debating a topic in such a way again(meant honestly, not sarcastically, in case that went unnoticed).

 

[arnisador]

This indicates you are unable to respect those in authority or with more knowledge and ability than you such that you might receive knowledge from them.

I think this is much too harsh. Different people have different learning styles--even if they don't have a further issue, like ADHD or something--and I respect those who recognize what their learning style is and adapt to it. The typical approach works for most of us, but it won't work for all of us. How many stories are there of self-taught geniuses (or otherwise distinguished individuals)? Einstein and Lincoln spring readily to mind. A given person is probably not a genius, but might still do better under a different system.

Still, those who were self-taught taught themselves existing knowledge rather than creating their own versions.

Some styles do have traditions of one-on-one training (e.g., Balintawak) and of tailoring the art to the person, and those arts might be appropriate.

 

[shesulsa]

I think this is much too harsh. Different people have different learning styles--even if they don't have a further issue, like ADHD or something--and I respect those who recognize what their learning style is and adapt to it. The typical approach works for most of us, but it won't work for all of us. How many stories are there of self-taught geniuses (or otherwise distinguished individuals)? Einstein and Lincoln spring readily to mind. A given person is probably not a genius, but might still do better under a different system.

Still, those who were self-taught taught themselves existing knowledge rather than creating their own versions.

Some styles do have traditions of one-on-one training (e.g., Balintawak) and of tailoring the art to the person, and those arts might be appropriate.

Perhaps I didn't convey my meaning and ... honestly I'm not sure I can without offending someone. But while you do make a very good point, Jeff, I still wonder, however, about this statement by Steve:

Generally, however, I don't believe in the right way. I believe in me, my way, and where possible and in agreement with my own mind, learning from the ways of others as well.

This led me to the likelihood of plain old youth and disregard. Could be age (and it most probably is), but this particular statement could belie a common problem.

 

[arnisador]

Well, you could very well be right. It does sound a lot like youthful hubris. I'm saying there's more than one possible explanation. I'll grant that yours is the more likely, but I'd be reluctant to label someone with that until I was sure that was the right explanation.

 

[Drifter]

That's funny, because martial arts instructors the world over have been changing martial arts for thousands of years, coming up with new ideas that may be more effective or creating a new style that branches off of an old one if certain points of their new style conflict with the old. Should they never be allowed to use a weapon because they had more faith in their new ideas than those of their masters?

People are adapting a style in that example. Rarely, a new martial art is created, but more often, it's someone copying the style they previously studied. coughSCARScough...

And as for use of a weapon? Most arts include that aspect. Kung Fu (broadsword, butterfly knives, staff), Kenpo (Staff set, Mr. Pick), Karate (Sais, nunchaku), Jujitsu (tonfa), Arnis (sticks, knives, staff, anything that can be swung ) etc. all have weapons training. If you are looking for PRACTICAL, as you described yourself and your methods, how often are you carrying DOUBLE SHORT SWORDS? Nonetheless at 15? How often are you near objects that could be improvised into double short swords?

A more poignant question might be 'why do you desire to learn double short swords'?

Today we were working on kicking shields in class, and as one instructor walked by, they said, "Sam, that's a horrible roundhouse". Okay, mental note, I need to work more on my left leg roundhouses. Who gives you the critique of your technique other than yourself?

If you want to learn how to fight practically, in a manner which is fairly free form, and can be personalized to you, look at Modern Arnis. Look at the FMA in general.

Here's a shortened version of my take on this whole mess:

If you can't take the time to be instructed for a while, how can you possibly have the patience to create an entire system?

 

[shesulsa]

Steve - allow me to backpeddle a bit and ask you a question or two ....

Where are you learning what you're learning from? Do you have videotapes? Books? Train from videogames? Movies?

 

[Ojiisan]

Wow.... I am impressed with Steve... He is only 15 and already a legend in his own mind. I am only 60 and am still on the path to enlightenment.

 

[Don Roley]

I hate to sound so condescending, but it seems to me that those with "formal instruction" do not hesitate to condescend those without it. You are not automatically more knowledgable, more skilled, or more fit to teach others than me just because you learned from someone else. Get over it.

We are better than you. Get over it.

Here is some hard telling that you should listen to. I have had the experience of trying to learn things on my own. I have also had the experience of training under sword masters here in Japan. So I have experienced what you have gone through, but you have not gone through mine.

So when I say that there is no subsitute for a good teacher, I speak from a viewpoint that you can't even imagine.

Have you ever killed anyone at all? Let alone with a sword? People have killed to learn the stuff they pass down through living traditions. Do you think that at age 15 you think hitting your friends in your back yard with toy swords is going to equal the lesson of actually killing someone?

15 is a tough time. You think you know everything. Again, I speak from experience here. I also know from experiences that you have not had that a 15 year old is not considered fully responsibile for their decisions for a damn good reason.

The first step in mastering the sword is mastering your ego. If you can't do that, if you can't accept the discipline of someone with a link to a tradition born in blood, you are doomed for the rest of your life to be one of the jokes in the martial arts.

 

[Mark Barlow]

When all is said and done, the kid is gonna do what he wants to do. Age and experience don't matter to him at this point in his life and nothing we say or do will change that. I've had several kids come in my dojo and think that rasslin' in the backyard with their buddies after watching UFC tapes somehow equals legitimate Jujutsu training. Each and every one became defensive and snotty when it came time to actually learn something from folks who actually know something. None of them lasted because it's easier to be a master in your own neighborhood then it is to be a student in the dojo.

My sincere hope is that Steve grows out of his arrogance and ignorance before he hurts someone.

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

Actually, I've read all the posts over again, in a third-person type of view point, though the word I'm trying to think of to describe it escapes me, and I've been out of line. I realize now that I really do need an instructor to be the best I can hope to be, to teach me the new things I don't know, help me refine the things I do know, and tell me what I need to work on.
If I can find one willing to train me in some weapons styles, I would like to learn from them, but I still have no interest in unarmed combat. That will never change. So, I'll look around and try to keep an open mind, and try to trust in my instructor as best I can, if I find one, though I'll always be a "Why should it be done this way?" and overall inquisitive type of learner.
I want to learn the ways of swords for many reasons, some of which I really can't explain. Simply holding one, the feel of it, the flow of it, the sound of it through the air makes me feel as one with it. Practicing swordsmanship brings me peace of mind and makes me feel complete; it gives me purpose. This is why I get angry when someone tells me that I am unfit to have a sword because I don't know how to properly use it.
Now I guess it's time to try and focus my abilities and learn from someone who is more experienced than myself, even though I never saw a need before.

 

[Ceicei]

If I can find one willing to train me in some weapons styles, I would like to learn from them, but I still have no interest in unarmed combat. That will never change. So, I'll look around and try to keep an open mind, and try to trust in my instructor as best I can, if I find one, though I'll always be a "Why should it be done this way?" and overall inquisitive type of learner.

You might not have any interest in unarmed combat, but you will find this very practical to learn how.

Many of the martial arts that teach swordmanship also teach unarmed combat. Why? Because you need to know what to do if you ever become disarmed. How will you defend yourself, especially if the opponent decides to use your weapon against you?

If your interest is strictly on using swords and nothing else, you might want to look into competitive sword-fighting (fencing). They learn how to use different types of swords in a competitive environment. If you love footwork and being able to use swords from different angles, then there are styles that teach katas and forms on how to display the handling of swords. What you want to do depends on what your goal is with learning swords.

What is your goal with using swords? This may help with deciding which direction you may want to go with studying swordsmanship.

- Ceicei

 

[Blindside]

Now I guess it's time to try and focus my abilities and learn from someone who is more experienced than myself, even though I never saw a need before.

Where are you? Perhaps we can point you towards some good instruction.

Lamont

 

[Gene Williams]

Did someone say that Stevie is only 15? Oh, this is too good! Does he even use a safety razor yet? So, he's out in the back yard playing Musashi with a stick. And we're giving him this much attention? Talk about a "child oriented society."

 

[arnisador]

People have killed to learn the stuff they pass down through living traditions.

Or, people have passed down the stuff they learned when they killed someone.

Don Roley makes an important point. Just swinging toy swords may not be enough to learn how to deliver a stroke that will really deliver a maiming or killing strike. (How many martial artists spar in a touch-fighting way that's more a game than about delivering combative blows?) It also may not be enough to develop blocks that'll work against a determined opponent who's swinging to kill you.

You can't get swordfighting experience without fighting with swords--and a real sword differs from a wooden one in important ways. Traditional swordfighting schools pass down that accumulated real-life experience.

Remy Presas fought in real stick matches to develop his stick-fighting skills. (He had plenty of training too.) People were really hit with sticks--hard. That's experience. But even one person's experience is biased by his or her own skills and preferences--something that a style that's benefitted from the experience of many practitioners may overcome.