Spreading the art II: THE REVENGE.....

[Rich Parsons]

Question to the Professors and to the teachers

Could there be good teachers with out any formal training or long exposure and trial and error?

Yes, a leading question, for I was a professional tutor in high school. Yes, I got paid for it. The teachers approached me to teach some other students who were having problems. I was moved to sit by other trouble students, to be able to quietly answer some of their questions in class. I did not advertise, only by referral.

I also was a professional tutor in college. At the U of Mich - Flint, you had to have an A in the class to tutor. I was only signed up to tutor computer science classes as these were the classes I had A's in. Well the Math department approached me to also be a math tutor. Yes it had somehtign to do with the issue that they were short staffed, it was also an issue that I could apply the mathematics I had learned in the computer science classes. (* some even being cross listed *) So, I was able to tutor, because I could relate and teach to people. Yet, I have had no formal training. By far do I not consider myself to be the only exception to the rule.

Thoughts?

 

[loki09789]

There was a comment, but it is futile...

 

[loki09789]

So, with all the mis-understandings, another one has occurred because they (I) could not see your smile when you said it. Ok

Other than the voices in your head , who else are you referring to as 'they?'

I tend to speak for myself. I remember what happened to the mouth of Sauron (at least in the novel, the movie totally took him out of the story. Too bad, one of my favorite moments in the story) and don't want to see the same end.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Other than the voices in your head , who else are you referring to as 'they?'

I tend to speak for myself. I remember what happened to the mouth of Sauron (at least in the novel, the movie totally took him out of the story. Too bad, one of my favorite moments in the story) and don't want to see the same end.

They could be the Mod staff who were wondering why? this topic would not die? Why would a person choose such a title for a topic, just coming from anotehr hot thread? Yet, it could be the people forwarding me PM's about being questioned about their profile and who they really are. It could be the voices in my head, and I will tell you again to get your own voices these are mine. As to they end, and not coming to that, I cannot for see. It all depends upon the events between here and the end. When ever or where ever it may be. I also remember the rebirth of Gandalf/Mithrander/Olrion after his batter with the balrog, and then he went as saw Suraman who was no longer white. One of my favorites from the book(s) as well.

 

[loki09789]

They could be the Mod staff who were wondering why? this topic would not die? Why would a person choose such a title for a topic, just coming from anotehr hot thread? Yet, it could be the people forwarding me PM's about being questioned about their profile and who they really are. It could be the voices in my head, and I will tell you again to get your own voices these are mine. As to they end, and not coming to that, I cannot for see. It all depends upon the events between here and the end. When ever or where ever it may be. I also remember the rebirth of Gandalf/Mithrander/Olrion after his batter with the balrog, and then he went as saw Suraman who was no longer white. One of my favorites from the book(s) as well.

All questions that could be answered by the person (me) with some direct contact via PM/email so as not to hijack a thread, make public statements about private interpretations or dredge up old sheets of history that is better served by remaining exactly that, history. As Tom pointed out in the past, and I agreed/supported the wisdom in the statement, defamations/libel and threats via internet forums have gotten so crazy as to go to court (THAT IS NOT A THREAT BTW), and I believe it was Paul J's and your recommendation in the past to go off the public forum if there were any questions that might be construed as character bashing. Seems like any concerns over this stuff could have been handled that way.

Questions lead to assumptions and suspicions when they go unasked. Assumptions lead to prejudice and all that other good stuff.

 

[Seig]

Get it back on topic, take the personal stuff off line.

Seig
MT Admin

 

[loki09789]

Get it back on topic, take the personal stuff off line.

Seig
MT Admin

My point exactly, thank you.

Teaching, IMO, is a skill like Martial arts, there will be those who demonstrate a natural affinity and skill but without proper training, they will spend a lot of time flailing about or making needless mistakes (in teaching that can be at the expense of student safety, esteem or development and business). They will develop bad habits, good habits and 'tricks' but won't have the benefit of heritage and history to draw from outside of their artistic track. It happens even in 'trained' teacher/coach groups.

It seems logical to say that if you (generic 'you', Rich, don't take it personal) truly love and respect your art/fellow students and want to continue it in a way that represents quality and integrity, some form of training in how to teach would be part of the instructor apprenticeship. In most cases, I don't really notice it as present. In professional martial artist venues like LEO/Military, as has been mentioned, there is instructor training because they train for a purpose and poor quality instruction or training is associated with injury, liability and unnecessary death. As hobbyists/enthusiasts and businessmen, that urgency of need doesn't seem to be as obvious.

The teaching thing is getting pounded here as a topic, but there were other things that I listed that are open to discussion - or folks could bring up something entirely unique but on the topic.

 

[Dan Anderson]

This is tough but I think also MOTIVE should be added to the list.

Ooooooh, very good point!

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - There has been so much pissing in this thread that I have taken to wearing a raincoat and hat before reading and posting. One of those yellow ones like in grade school. I look silly in it. Please get back to the thread. Besides, it is uncomfortably warm in it.

 

[Flatlander]

1. Integrity
2. Quality
3. Balancing divergence/innovation with preservation
4. INSTRUCTION
5. exposure/advertising/expansion.

This may not be well recieved, but I mean no Ill intent.

I think that there is a fundamental precept that is being overlooked, or perhaps looked around.

Leadership.

I believe that in order to correctly administer the 'spreading of the art' with cohesiveness, continuity, integrity, balance, and homogeniety of quality, there needs to be an agreed upon "plan" that all who teach abide by, so as not to dilute the essential qualities, and to protect against future generations of the same art doing totally unrecognizable things.

I will not speculate on the appropriate structure, but I think that councils are more effective and balanced than any one person.

This is my opinion as it realates to the spreading of the art.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Let's not forget Vision.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Leadership, vision. Two more excellent points! Now we're back on track!

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Tgace]

This may not be well recieved, but I mean no Ill intent.

I think that there is a fundamental precept that is being overlooked, or perhaps looked around.

Leadership.

I believe that in order to correctly administer the 'spreading of the art' with cohesiveness, continuity, integrity, balance, and homogeniety of quality, there needs to be an agreed upon "plan" that all who teach abide by, so as not to dilute the essential qualities, and to protect against future generations of the same art doing totally unrecognizable things.

I will not speculate on the appropriate structure, but I think that councils are more effective and balanced than any one person.

This is my opinion as it realates to the spreading of the art.

On that note, I thought Id link another thread on leadership here.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14316

 

[loki09789]

On that note, I thought Id link another thread on leadership here.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14316

Earlier a poster mentioned that military training includes instructor training.... but in the military instructional training is a part of Leadership development. Conversely, in teacher training leadership isn't really a part of the development - and I think it hurts new teachers during their first years.

I think teachers ARE leaders in a fashion because they have authority to reward and punish, are responsible for the welfare and safety of students and are partially accountable for student progress and proficiency - all of which are part of a military leader's responsibility as well. Of course there are areas that don't relate, but these do seem to overlap.

In Martial arts, are we leaders first and instructors second, or is it the other way around? Either way, how do we 'spread the art' by virtue of establishing good leadership to hand the art off to when our time is up?

 

[MichiganTKD]

Let me start off by saying that the rank you wear around your waist is absolutely no indicator of the kind of Instructor you are. I know Master Instructors higher than me that, based on the performances of their students at testings or tournaments, should not be teaching.
Now having said that, what makes a good Instructor? I believe good Instructors share common characteristics.

1. Love of what they teach. If you don't honestly love your style or what you teach, it will become mechanical, repetitious, boring. Additionally, how can you present your art as something truly worth learning if you yourself don't love it. Any salesman will tell you you must believe in your product to be a good salesman.
2. Understand what motivates your students. You cannot possibly teach all students the same way. Understand why each person is in class. Have your core program, but give each student a little bit of what they want.
3. Understand your style. You must take the time to analyze the techniques that comprise what you practice. Don't just teach or practice forms, understand what they are doing. Don't just blindly do something because your Instructor made you do it, understand what it is that you are doing. Otherwise, it just becomes a series of techniques requiring rote memorization. Korean students may rotely memorize techniques, but Americans are a little more inquisitive. We like to know why we are doing what we are doing. You better be prepared to explain it eventually.
4. Lead by example. If you preach integrity, quality, trust, hard work, and respect, you have to be a living embodiment of those words. There is nothing worse than a person in that position who is a hypocrite. This is why the scandal with the Catholic Church is so bad. Many people molest children unfortunately. Priests do not molest kids.

 

[DoxN4cer]

Tom, when I asked some questions about law precviously, you stated that you did nto knwo and that they could very from state to state.

I repeat the questiosn now:

How do carry a knife that is legal in my state on my person and or in my car in all states without getting into trouble?

:asian:

You could start by checking with Title 18 of the US Code, Rich. It's Federal Law, and you really couldn't go wrong if you followed that guideline... even in California.

 

[loki09789]

4. Lead by example. If you preach integrity, quality, trust, hard work, and respect, you have to be a living embodiment of those words. There is nothing worse than a person in that position who is a hypocrite. This is why the scandal with the Catholic Church is so bad. Many people molest children unfortunately. Priests do not molest kids.

Lead by example.... heard that for a long time. I agree that if it is something that you truly beleive in it will be something that you live/practice.

I think the over simplification of the idea can cause misunderstandings though. We are not supermen/women because of Martial arts training. Undfortunately, Lead by example has turned into a justification to pass judgement on folks, who have made mistakes, sometimes that mistake is something that we have all done at some point - just haven't had it go public. Lead by example can also mean the way you conduct yourself in response to a mistake - both as the doer and as the observer of a mistake.

As the doer:
Do you deny, deny deny? Do you take resonsibility for it? Do you reconcile with the parties involved or do you blame everyone around you for choices that you made?

As the observer:
Do you point and laugh? Do you start handing out the torches for the linch mob? Do you use that one instant (sometimes the only thing you may know about the person) to form your total opinion? Do you recognize that "there before the grace of God go I" (depending on the mistake of course) and find a way to balance holding the person responsible by 'fixing the problem, not the blame?'

As all flawed humans, I think we have all been on both sides of this idea (doer and observer) and reacted in pos. and neg. ways.

Lead by example should be paired with "Aim high, fall short" because we know that we will make mistakes. Character is built/demonstrated in part by how we deal with those mistakes.

 

[DoxN4cer]

I repeat the questiosn now:

Can you conduct a DOT test in a state park?

Can you contuct a DOT test in a federal park?

:asian:

Which DOT are you talking about, Rich. Federal or state; and if it's state DOT.
which one?

My point here, Rich; is that we can poke counted productive hole in eachother or we can get on with the meat of the thead. Stop being such a big baby.

TK

 

[DoxN4cer]

This is why the scandal with the Catholic Church is so bad. Many people molest children unfortunately. Priests do not molest kids.

Damn. Where'd that come from?

 

[Dan Anderson]

Let me start off by saying that the rank you wear around your waist is absolutely no indicator of the kind of Instructor you are. I know Master Instructors higher than me that, based on the performances of their students at testings or tournaments, should not be teaching.
Now having said that, what makes a good Instructor? I believe good Instructors share common characteristics.

1. Love of what they teach. If you don't honestly love your style or what you teach, it will become mechanical, repetitious, boring. Additionally, how can you present your art as something truly worth learning if you yourself don't love it. Any salesman will tell you you must believe in your product to be a good salesman.
2. Understand what motivates your students. You cannot possibly teach all students the same way. Understand why each person is in class. Have your core program, but give each student a little bit of what they want.
3. Understand your style. You must take the time to analyze the techniques that comprise what you practice. Don't just teach or practice forms, understand what they are doing. Don't just blindly do something because your Instructor made you do it, understand what it is that you are doing. Otherwise, it just becomes a series of techniques requiring rote memorization. Korean students may rotely memorize techniques, but Americans are a little more inquisitive. We like to know why we are doing what we are doing. You better be prepared to explain it eventually.
4. Lead by example. If you preach integrity, quality, trust, hard work, and respect, you have to be a living embodiment of those words. There is nothing worse than a person in that position who is a hypocrite. This is why the scandal with the Catholic Church is so bad. Many people molest children unfortunately. Priests do not molest kids.

Excellent post. Last sentence - do you mean "Not only priests do molest kids."?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[MichiganTKD]

Ah, some clarification is in order. What I mean is priests are in a position where it should be unthinkable in the public imagination that they would molest kids. If you can't trust a representative of God on Earth, someone who comforts you in times of trouble, who can you trust? Martial arts instructors are the same way. By virtue of our position and the fact that students look up to us and admire us, it is unthinkable we should betray that trust. For some students, their Tae Kwon Do Instructor is the only stable role model in their life. Whether an Instructor realizes it or not, he/she is an example of the best part of human nature-someone we can aspire to emulate regardless of education or job. Same with a priest. A priest represents the best parts of human behavior. Yeah, I know, priests and Instructors are human too, but there is a difference between being human and failing in your obligation. Using profanity or drinking is being human. Betraying trust and hurting someone is a whole other story.