What is it with you people and "formal instruction"?

[Mark Barlow]

Swordsoulsteve,

If I missed it in an earlier post, I apologize but how old are you?

Mark Barlow

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

Wow....I wasn't expecting to see so many posts so quickly, though I suppose I should have. I appreciate the respect, the open mindedness, and the patience you are all giving in your responses, and I must say you have put up good enough arguments here to have persuaded me, at least to a degree.
As far as why I do not have a formal instuctor or someone of more experience helping me train, it's not exactly refusal....my preferred style of combat is twin short swords nearly to exclusion of all else. I realize that many of you may argue even against my unwillingness to start with something simpler or start with unarmed combat or whatever. I also realize that it truly is a bit stupid. However, I hold neither an interest nor any talent toward fighting without a weapon(something of which much training is often required in to even begin training with weapons) or learning other weapons. So far, practicing with my swords has helped me to get a general ryhthm and even perhaps a more positive outlook on my possibilities in other forms of combat, thus, at the moment I prefer to focus on one thing at a time.
The other reason I am without instruction is the simple inability to find any in my area.
Other points.....no, I do not have any clips of myself practicing, nor can I make any in the near future, luckily, which saves me from seeming like a further fool to you all. I am not embarassed of my technique, but I'm sure someone would find a way to make me so. As to my age, which I'm sure I'll regret releasing, only 15. I know my argument is dumb, I bring it up only to perhaps learn from it, and I have. So gimme a break.
If I can ever find an instructor that teaches such things as more of a "guide" than as a "learn it the right way" teacher, I would be honored to train beneath him/her. Thanks, everyone, for your posts. My respect for all of you has not diminished through the course of this debate. I hope the same can be said of me.

 

[Andrew Green]

You might want to poke around for Kali/escrima/arnis.

Yes, it is stick fighting. But the sticks are often to represent blades (without the training injuries). And they will teach double stick/blade fighting.

 

[shesulsa]

Steve, I know of other 15 year olds who are talented martial artists who chomp at the bit for sword training.

Formal empty-handed training usually precludes weapons training to build muscles and train them for handling weapons. Form and technique are important in weapons training and this begins with empty hands. Part of the training is also mental and while most people think this is a waste of time, the training in patience is tantamount to weapons training. The progression is there for reasons that are, apparently, escaping you at the moment ... now why this is could be many factors.

If you want my opinion, if a person of any age with no formal training came to me wanting weapons training (should I be authorized by my instructor to teach weapons) without formal empty-handed training, I would refuse and you'd probably see the same from the vast majority of instructors.

I'm glad you feel you're gaining some confidence about training at all by working with twin swords independently, but I must caution you that if you are practicing bad habits that you are unaware of, UN-training yourself from those bad habits later will be a much longer, more arduous path than you might know.

I would advise you to seek traditional training on a trade basis - that is, trade babysitting services or carwashing or lawnmowing services (or something productive) for training if you can find an instructor willing to do this. Most probably won't, but the one who will just might be worth his salt. And if you get some private or semi-private training from the deal you might - might - be able to get to weaponry faster than in a group class.

See, weapons are flashy and whatnot, but ... if you don't know how to use any weapon properly, it's more likely to be used against you.

I wish you the best of luck ... and better training. :asian:

 

[Mark Barlow]

If this post comes across as overly harsh, I apologize beforehand. The concept of self training is a particular sore spot for me so be forewarned.

No offense intended but your age does much to explain your view of formal training and apparent lack of respect for those with more experience. As to giving you a break because of your age....you seem to consider yourself an equal to students and instructors who have trained longer than you've been alive. Since we're asked to accept your word on your skill, age and experience should be considered when estimating your likely level of ability.

It is possible that you are naturally gifted and can become an adept without the assistance of an instructor but I doubt it. If Musashi was truly self trained, he still had the benefit of being immersed in a warrior culture and no doubt "played" at kenjutsu from a very early age. Swinging sticks with your friends in the backyard may give you an edge in fighting folks with even less experience than you but it won't make you a swordsman.

The word sensei basically means, "someone who has gone before" or "someone with more experience". At 15 that might not seem important but trust me, as you get older, you'll come to appreciate having someone to point out pitfalls and roadblocks. As for the argument of not having an instructor available so you'll training yourself till one comes along, all that will do is create bad habits that will make future training even more difficult.

I really do wish you luck on your training and hope you are successful.

Mark Barlow

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

Thanks for the honest advice, guys. I know that training myself as I have been seems foolish, but my style is practical enough at least to not do anything stupid that will get me hurt. I don't personally believe in doing any flashy moves at all-for that very reason, along with the fact that they're just plain ineffective. I can't stop myself from practicing as I always have, that would be asking too much. And where practicing actual combat is concerned, I try to separate it from what I learn in solitary training, at least to the point where I can analyze what seems to work and what's unnecessary or ineffective and needs to be removed.
I suppose that nearly wraps it up on my end. Once again, thank you all for everything, and please forgive me if I have offended.

 

[Tgace]

As the odds of sword combat these days is pretty slim, Id say this topic is academic anyways.

 

[Mark Barlow]

As the odds of sword combat these days is pretty slim, Id say this topic is academic anyways.Today 02:58 PM



That's true but the odds of a 15 yr old either cutting himself our one of his buddies while "training" is pretty high.

 

[Gene Williams]

Steve and Andrew, You are the kind of guys that stumble over the truth once in a while, but pick yourselves up and keep right on going. Neither of you can handle the structure and discipline of a traditional ryu, so you have to keep convincing yourselves you know better than generations of others who did it the "right" way...yes, I said, "the right way." That really shakes up your relativistic world view doesn't it?

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

Steve and Andrew, You are the kind of guys that stumble over the truth once in a while, but pick yourselves up and keep right on going. Neither of you can handle the structure and discipline of a traditional ryu, so you have to keep convincing yourselves you know better than generations of others who did it the "right" way...yes, I said, "the right way." That really shakes up your relativistic world view doesn't it?

You are certainly right in that I have trouble learning a traditional ryu, Gene, mostly because I have trouble learning anything in the traditional way. I need a great deal of freedom in learning things, and often have to at least review them on my own to understand them in my own way and make them work for me. I am the same way when it comes to any sort of physical training.
When an instructor might say that a particular movement or blocking technique may be the most effective in a certain situation, I may disagree and decide to come up with a simpler and quicker one that works better for me, but not better for him/her or anyone in his class, because they simply don't think of it the way I do, or move the way I do, or whatever. This may or may not continue in such a fashion and I may or may not become frustrated and leave due to conflict of methods.
"The right way" is indeed a difficult topic for me to discuss, because it seems variable based on subject and situation. Generally, however, I don't believe in the right way. I believe in me, my way, and where possible and in agreement with my own mind, learning from the ways of others as well.
I can understand your disapproval with me, thinking about this frustrates me as well, but I can't help it.

 

[Tgace]

In other words you are a "know it all" who cant take criticism. And knows better than his instructor. The picture is becoming clear.

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

As the odds of sword combat these days is pretty slim, Id say this topic is academic anyways.Today 02:58 PM



That's true but the odds of a 15 yr old either cutting himself our one of his buddies while "training" is pretty high.

Just as a point I suppose you should be aware of, Mark, I would never use a real sword in sparring. On my own I always do, and I won't lie, I've gotten a few scrapes, but if my memory serves me correctly, only one time have i cut myself in practice, and it, nor any of my other injuries, were serious.
From personal experience, the only time I've ever messed up to the point of the sword hitting me was A: trying a new technique, idea, or whatever it is you may wish to label it as, or B: when switching between weapons while still attempting to retain the rhythm of my movements.(like switching between two different lengths of swords or different types without first attempting to adjust to the new weight, feel, etc.)

 

[shesulsa]

I need a great deal of freedom in learning things, and often have to at least review them on my own to understand them in my own way and make them work for me. I am the same way when it comes to any sort of physical training.

This indicates you are unable to respect those in authority or with more knowledge and ability than you such that you might receive knowledge from them.

When an instructor might say that a particular movement or blocking technique may be the most effective in a certain situation, I may disagree and decide to come up with a simpler and quicker one that works better for me, but not better for him/her or anyone in his class, because they simply don't think of it the way I do, or move the way I do, or whatever. This may or may not continue in such a fashion and I may or may not become frustrated and leave due to conflict of methods.

If you have that little faith in what it takes to become a martial arts instructor, then you have absolutely no business handling weapons of any kind.

"The right way" is indeed a difficult topic for me to discuss, because it seems variable based on subject and situation. Generally, however, I don't believe in the right way. I believe in me, my way, and where possible and in agreement with my own mind, learning from the ways of others as well.

So if it has to be your way or the highway, if I were your mother, I'd raid your room and rid you of all weapons.

I can understand your disapproval with me, thinking about this frustrates me as well, but I can't help it.

I think you can ... but I also think you don't want to ... and that makes you an unsuitable candidate for weapons training, in my opinion.

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

If you wish to think of me as a know it all who can't take criticism, then you may well be right, but saying that theres only one right way to hold a sword or use a sword is wrong.

 

[MA-Caver]

Just as a point I suppose you should be aware of, Mark, I would never use a real sword in sparring. On my own I always do, and I won't lie, I've gotten a few scrapes, but if my memory serves me correctly, only one time have i cut myself in practice, and it, nor any of my other injuries, were serious.

Forgive me but I think when it comes to anything like that... once is all it takes. You're lucky and I'm sure you know that as well... But well I think those of us who are voicing our concern probably don't want to be reading about you at this particular website. :idunno: Do be careful doing whatever it is that you want. :asian:

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

That's funny, because martial arts instructors the world over have been changing martial arts for thousands of years, coming up with new ideas that may be more effective or creating a new style that branches off of an old one if certain points of their new style conflict with the old. Should they never be allowed to use a weapon because they had more faith in their new ideas than those of their masters?

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

I must say that I do find it heartwarming that you all have such interest in me, even if it is only to argue or to try to make me see the light, so to speak.

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

And not hurting oneself seems to be a matter of common sense....Don't do anything that you will have a good chance of hurting yourself doing.....accidents can always happen, even to the best of us, and I am indeed referring to the human race as a whole, which hopefully includes those who would argue against me, however a person should not train in an art at all if they fear hurting themselves without someone telling them how not to.

 

[Hyaku]

As the odds of sword combat these days is pretty slim, Id say this topic is academic anyways.

We do not swords for combat. Generally the Japanese Budo is not centered on combat. Its just that the whole lot including modern day combat, self defence, MA sports etc all get mishmashed into one big package to the extent that some cant seem to assimilate which is which. Works well if a modern day combat group can get a few Japanese grades to look good and give some ancients roots to what they do.

The Forums themselves also lump it all in there further confuse the unbeknowing with few stickes telling people a little of the contents, facets and philosophy if any.

How anyone can confuse a possible streetfight confrontation with swords beats me. Everyone should have the basic understanding that going into the world of Japanese sword arts is for most a very self educating, spiritual philosophical art through use of an ancient weapon and a lot of very hard work. A lot of very hard, dont question, just "do it" stuff. It starts with single long sword work. Thirty years or so could lead to two sword and even harder shortsword other weapon then disarming.

Musashi was a firm believer of learning the weapons of his day. After seeing the terrifying power of the first guns and the prospect of dodging bullets/balls he realized the futility had pressed the point of having a bit more heart and sensitivity would stop us even picking weapons up.

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

And as for "your way or the highway", instructors teach this way yet they seem to get all the esteem that can be granted. No one takes their wepons away from them.
Each individual knows, and if they don't, they certainly should know, the learning method that best works for them. Am I wrong in knowing what mine is?
Is a teacher right for not knowing what mine is?