What is Considered Bad Taijiquan?

[Trent]

In another thread, I posed a question which was kindly answered by another poster. The nice response generated another question and topic in my thoughts.

It was stated that much taijiquan has been observed that lacked internal movement, but that it wasn't bad taijiquan, simply bad practice.

My mind is more likely to associate bad practice with bad movement, and leave it at that. For example, speaking of another martial practice to not feed potential replies on this subject, if someone is throwing a jab, or series of combination punches, that lacks the proper footwork and bodywork to impart power, that person in my mind would be exhibiting poor boxing skills. It's much harder to do it properly while getting hit than shadowboxing and working the bag and mitts with fundmental skills.

But I'd like to hear other folks opinions on the subject, as I thought this may be what leads to much miscommunication as folks may be using the same words for different ideas about the same perceptions.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Taiji without Sandao - Unification of Shen (Spirit), Yi (thought, intension), and correct posture.

Or taiji with one of them missing

 

[East Winds]

As far as Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan is concerned, if ANY of Yang Cheng fu's 10 essences are mssing from the form.

Very best wishes

 

[Trent]

Taiji without Sandao - Unification of Shen (Spirit), Yi (thought, intension), and correct posture.

Or taiji with one of them missing

That was essentially my thoughts as well, but it also included the use of the principle of chi since that is one of the major aspects of tajiquan. Without any of those, it is bad taijiquan to me, or perhaps not even taijiquan at all.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That was essentially my thoughts as well, but it also included the use of the principle of chi since that is one of the major aspects of tajiquan. Without any of those, it is bad taijiquan to me, or perhaps not even taijiquan at all.

True

But don't forget Yi moves Qi so if Yi is not unified with Shen and posture you essentially have no qi or at best poor qi.

 

[Trent]

True

But don't forget Yi moves Qi so if Yi is not unified with Shen and posture you essentially have no qi or at best poor qi.

I surely agree, but what I wanted to know was other practitioner's definition of "bad" taiqjiquan. We've all seen it, and I'm sure often. I wish to further clarify, that I don't wish to consider neophytes or students who are learning how to do proper taijiquan, but those "teachers" who propose to offer taijiquan and don't appear to be doing it at all, and if asked unequivically state that they do, and well.

Names aren't necessary, merely descriptions of observations and impressions.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Teachers that do not teach or practice correct posture

Or someone using to much Li

 

[East Winds]

I think a lot of taiji we see today is "Wushu" taiji which lacks many of the fundamental principles left to us by each of the 5 families. That in my opinion is bad taiji.

Very best wishes

 

[Steel Tiger]

I think a lot of taiji we see today is "Wushu" taiji which lacks many of the fundamental principles left to us by each of the 5 families. That in my opinion is bad taiji.

Very best wishes

I have to agree. The biggest problem I see creating bad taiji is a lack of focus. This lack of focus is both physical and internal. All too often you see someone performing a form and the technique does not go all the way to the fingers or toes in its movement. This is, of course, stems from a lack of understanding of the concepts of Yi, Shen, Qi, and Jin.

 

[dmax999]

I'll preface this with some people do Tai Chi for only health reasons, and their "correctness" is irrelevant.

See if they can fight with it. If they can't strike good, can't push hands well, and can't completely control a resisting opponent, they are probably doing bad Tai Chi.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I'll preface this with some people do Tai Chi for only health reasons, and their "correctness" is irrelevant.

See if they can fight with it. If they can't strike good, can't push hands well, and can't completely control a resisting opponent, they are probably doing bad Tai Chi.

Taiji is an internal art and to fully benefit from a health perspective you have to understand, posture, breathing, and thought.

You're right the "correctness" of the form is not so important as long as the essences and principles are adhered to. One of the telltale signs of bad taiji is an obsession with the correctness of the form, often to the exclusion of all else.

 

[East Winds]

dmax999

"I'll preface this with some people do Tai Chi for only health reasons, and their "correctness" is irrelevant".

Yes, perfectly put!! They don't realise that they are getting no more benefit than they would if they took up line dancing. No offence to any line dancing members on the forumby the way. :rofl:

Very best wishes

 

[oxy]

Japanese women, especially from Okinawa have among the highest average lifespans in the world. There are a few nonagenarians who still run their shops everyday as if they were still in their 60s.

Unless there is properly conducted and properly recorded statistical evidence that shows a significant positive difference between those who practice "real taiji/internal-arts" and those who just exercise and those who have the lifestyle similar to Japanese women, then it is just not accurate to keep making the claim that "real" whatever somehow produces benefits that are miles ahead of the alternatives.

The key is properly conducted and recorded statistical evidence.

If the population of "real taiji" practitioners do not significantly break the average lifespan, then there is really no evidence to back up the implication that there is "miles" of difference between "real internal" and normal exercise.

My own grandmother (who's still alive) was walking kilometres up and down a 30 degree slope every other day to buy groceries in her late eighties. No martial arts training at all. And her only complaint during recent years were knee pains. And all it took was consistent exercise for her whole life, walking up and down 30 degree slopes carrying over a kilogram of groceries in a trolley bag. Much less rigorous than line dancing (when adjusted for duration endurance).

 

[Xue Sheng]

Japanese women, especially from Okinawa have among the highest average lifespans in the world. There are a few nonagenarians who still run their shops everyday as if they were still in their 60s.

Unless there is properly conducted and properly recorded statistical evidence that shows a significant positive difference between those who practice "real taiji/internal-arts" and those who just exercise and those who have the lifestyle similar to Japanese women, then it is just not accurate to keep making the claim that "real" whatever somehow produces benefits that are miles ahead of the alternatives.

The key is properly conducted and recorded statistical evidence.

If the population of "real taiji" practitioners do not significantly break the average lifespan, then there is really no evidence to back up the implication that there is "miles" of difference between "real internal" and normal exercise.

My own grandmother (who's still alive) was walking kilometres up and down a 30 degree slope every other day to buy groceries in her late eighties. No martial arts training at all. And her only complaint during recent years were knee pains. And all it took was consistent exercise for her whole life, walking up and down 30 degree slopes carrying over a kilogram of groceries in a trolley bag. Much less rigorous than line dancing (when adjusted for duration endurance).

True, but I am not talking about real or fake I am talking about good or bad, not the same. I do not know what the others in the post are looking at but the original post was what is bad Taiji

To much li, no yi, no qi, incorrect posture all can make bad taiji

Doing Taiji for health as opposed to martial arts I'm not sure there. My suspicion is you get more form the full package than just part.

As for Okinawa it is my understanding that in their case it is more diet and genetics than exercise. So if you eat kind of healthy will you live as long? No data to back that up either.

Tibetans metabolize O2 better than anyone on the planet, Tibetans are Buddhists, does this mean Buddhist metabolize O2 better? No, it just means they have lived at incredibly high altitudes longer than anyone else.
Andes Indians are similar, but they loose the ability if you take them out of the Andes for awhile, so far Tibetans don’t. You or I can get our bodies to metabolize O2 at the same level as Tibetans or Andes Indians if we go live there for a few weeks. But we will loose the ability faster than the Andes Indians once removed from the high altitude environment.

Taiji for health as opposed to Taiji with MA intact I feel is more of the same thing. You can gain health either way but stop doing it who stays healthier longer? I don’t know but again I suspect someone training the full package. Who gets more health benefits again I suspect those that follow the whole curriculum instead of just half.

Regardless of how much different the health benefits may be you cannot go against genetics and if you train Zhaobao taiji (for example) for 20 years but eat nothing but hot dogs and French fries I am guessing you are not long for this world even though you might be considered a Taiji master.

Yang Chengfu died young but he was close to 300 pounds. Chen Zhaokai died young as well, not sure why there. But for the most part the Sun family got to be very old. Is it taiji or is it genetics who knows

 

[Trent]

I'll preface this with some people do Tai Chi for only health reasons, and their "correctness" is irrelevant.

See if they can fight with it. If they can't strike good, can't push hands well, and can't completely control a resisting opponent, they are probably doing bad Tai Chi.

Hmm, I find the preface interesting as it deliberately excuses what many would perceive as "bad" due to the intent of the practitioners. That was one of the reasons I asked the question. People's perspectives and assumptions start with a different standard, therefore, little agreement can be made on many levels.

I agree that if they can't strike well, push or deal with a resisting opponent using taiji, then the taiji is "bad" on some or all levels, but, personally, despite the excuse that "I'm only doing it for health" if it is done without the essential things present that make taiji, it is therefore "bad" regardless of the reason. Note, there are varying degrees of "bad" depending upon how much is absent in the practice I would think.

Also, earlier, I gave a pass to those who are new and learning what those essential practices are, and it could be considered that their taiji is "bad" as well. Frankly, it is, but we don't call them out because they are learning and aren't expected to have good or correct practices.

Or is it just me?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hmm, I find the preface interesting as it deliberately excuses what many would perceive as "bad" due to the intent of the practitioners. That was one of the reasons I asked the question. People's perspectives and assumptions start with a different standard, therefore, little agreement can be made on many levels.

I agree that if they can't strike well, push or deal with a resisting opponent using taiji, then the taiji is "bad" on some or all levels, but, personally, despite the excuse that "I'm only doing it for health" if it is done without the essential things present that make taiji, it is therefore "bad" regardless of the reason. Note, there are varying degrees of "bad" depending upon how much is absent in the practice I would think.

Also, earlier, I gave a pass to those who are new and learning what those essential practices are, and it could be considered that their taiji is "bad" as well. Frankly, it is, but we don't call them out because they are learning and aren't expected to have good or correct practices.

Or is it just me?

nope, it's just you :uhyeah: just kidding.

I would not include a beginner in the definition of bad taiji for the same reason I would not call TKD, Xingyi, Bagua, JKD, or karate bad taiji. They don't know taiji therefore it is not good or bad. But that goes for just about anything we are new at; we start out bad and learn as we go to get better. And a beginner at taiji will HOPEFULLY get better. And before anyone jumps on that, a beginner cannot get better if the teacher is teaching bad taiji

Bad taiji is the guy that has been doing taiji for several years and is doing a very sloppy form or using to much muscular strength (Li), or in the case of Traditional Yang not following the 10 principals, etc.

 

[East Winds]

I would not consider beginners to be doing bad taiji. I have been practising Chinese Internal Arts now for 17 years and teaching for 10. My teacher (yes, I'm still learning) makes corrections. Is that beacuse I am doing bad taiji?

I agree with Xue Sheng's take on the matter.

Very best wishes

 

[dmax999]

Hmm, I find the preface interesting as it deliberately excuses what many would perceive as "bad" due to the intent of the practitioners. That was one of the reasons I asked the question. People's perspectives and assumptions start with a different standard, therefore, little agreement can be made on many levels.

I agree that if they can't strike well, push or deal with a resisting opponent using taiji, then the taiji is "bad" on some or all levels, but, personally, despite the excuse that "I'm only doing it for health" if it is done without the essential things present that make taiji, it is therefore "bad" regardless of the reason. Note, there are varying degrees of "bad" depending upon how much is absent in the practice I would think.

I would never presume to make a comment that anyone who does Tai Chi only for health reasons is automatically bad. I know some that practice Tai Chi only for health and are fairly good at it. My point was it really doesn't matter if they do it right or not, they will still get the benefits they desire from it (They may get more by doing it correctly, but that is a different discussion)

To really be able to tell if they are doing it right they have to be able to use it. It would be similar to a race car driver that only raced solo on the track. Is he good or not? Doesn't matter. When you add the other drivers so many additional things, like drafting and passing, come up that he would never had to deal with by himself. He may be able to get the best lap times solo of anyone, but when it really counts is where he will learn if he is really good or bad.

That was the point about health reasons being "irrelevant". Not its automatically bad.

 

[oxy]

True, but I am not talking about real or fake I am talking about good or bad, not the same. I do not know what the others in the post are looking at but the original post was what is bad Taiji

To much li, no yi, no qi, incorrect posture all can make bad taiji

Doing Taiji for health as opposed to martial arts I'm not sure there. My suspicion is you get more form the full package than just part.

I don't doubt that you get more from the full package than otherwise. My doubt is exactly how much more.

I did get side-tracked by using the words "exercise", but I was including "bad Taiji" in that category, since East Winds made a comment about bad Taiji being only as good as line dancing. They're both good for exercise.

As for Okinawa it is my understanding that in their case it is more diet and genetics than exercise. So if you eat kind of healthy will you live as long? No data to back that up either.

That people will live as long as okinawans? Probably not. That people will live longer than the people around them who do not eat as healthy? I think there's enough data there (of course, I would have to search for them). But given that all okinawans have basically the same diet and they, as a society, have above average average lifespans, that is good evidence right there.

Tibetans metabolize O2 better than anyone on the planet, Tibetans are Buddhists, does this mean Buddhist metabolize O2 better? No, it just means they have lived at incredibly high altitudes longer than anyone else.
Andes Indians are similar, but they loose the ability if you take them out of the Andes for awhile, so far Tibetans don’t. You or I can get our bodies to metabolize O2 at the same level as Tibetans or Andes Indians if we go live there for a few weeks. But we will loose the ability faster than the Andes Indians once removed from the high altitude environment.

Taiji for health as opposed to Taiji with MA intact I feel is more of the same thing. You can gain health either way but stop doing it who stays healthier longer? I don’t know but again I suspect someone training the full package. Who gets more health benefits again I suspect those that follow the whole curriculum instead of just half.

Again, I don't doubt you get more from the full package. My doubt is about exactly how much more. To be able to make solid claims, this "more" must be significantly more. You mentioned genetics and the environment. They are very important factors. Which is why you need the statistical significance to show that real taiji does something beyond what genetic and environment variables are present.

I agree (unfortunately without too much evidence) that those who do bad taiji might lose whatever they have at much quicker rates if they stop but I think that's beside the point because I was making the point that someone who does bad taiji for as long as someone who does good taiji do not have evidence to say they are miles apart. The assumption that they do not stop was made to make the two more comparable. Otherwise, you can't tell if it's really bad taiji that puts that gap in between or if it's because the bad taiji practitioner stopped practitioning.

If anything, the claims should only go as far as saying that bad taiji is more likely to cause injury through incorrect posture and too much li.

Yang Chengfu died young but he was close to 300 pounds. Chen Zhaokai died young as well, not sure why there. But for the most part the Sun family got to be very old. Is it taiji or is it genetics who knows

Exactly. It's not clear. Which is why it's not a good idea to make claims about real taiji being significantly better than bad taiji without enough evidence. Comparing bad taiji to line dancing in order to imply real taiji is somehow miles better without real-world statistics is not a good thing to do. Ultimately, such claims will hurt the whole internal martial arts world. Even if studies show these claims are true, there will be others who will be tricked by other less honest studies. It's kind of like if a person was found innocent but the perception of guilt sticks around just because they were a suspect.

 

[East Winds]

Oxy,

There are only three things you should know about statistics:

There are Lies, Damn Lies and statistics - Mark Twain

Think about how stupid the average person is; now realise half of them are dumber than that - George Carlin

and finally

47.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Very best wishes