What is "Anti-American"?

[CoryKS]

The problem is that "feelings" carry little weight under American law.

I may "feel" a dozen things. One of them may be that social conservatives endanger society by propagating a system that creates an economic oligarchy. Another thing I may "feel" is that religious fundamentalists endanger society by propagating an archaic ideology that promotes intolerance and dualism.

But, you know what?? It is still their right to do so, under American law.



Not really, but that's probably because they aren't.

In fact, I would say the attempts to conflate social liberals with terrorists is emblematic of the intellectual dishonesty and duplicity that has so mired what passes for public discourse in this country. The subtext is essentially, "Agree with me or you're a terrorist lover."

That many of our citizens really do buy into such garbage speaks volumes about the level of misinformation in our society.

Laterz.

Yeah, they did. Right down to mocking him for staying to listen to the goat story. Michael Moore's dvd did pretty well in Waziristan. I could find the references for you, but at this point it's starting to feel like arguing religion anyway.

 

[heretic888]

Yeah, they did. Right down to mocking him for staying to listen to the goat story. Michael Moore's dvd did pretty well in Waziristan. I could find the references for you, but at this point it's starting to feel like arguing religion anyway.

Religion? Not quite.

You seem to have mistaken me for a Democrat or some Leftist ideologue, based on the fact that I am extremely critical of the Bush administration. Rest assured, I am nothing of the sort. I even voted for Bush in 2000 and would probably vote for McCain if he managed to win the Republican nomination in 2008.

What I am, however, is a person of integrity and intellectual honesty. I don't believe in appealing to false dichotomies, ad hominems, or impugning the patriotism of those that disagree with me. This is precisely the psychosocial buildup that led to the rise of the Nazi Party in Germany. Which is not to say that President Bush is akin to Adolf Hitler, but the psychological parallels between modern-day America and Nazi Germany are unmistakable to any intelligent student of history.

More to the point, I don't believe that using tactics of intellectual bullyism or intimidation ("a vote for candidate X is a vote for the terrorists") is something a good American should be doing. I believe a goodAmerican would encourage open and honest discourse of the issues, so that our people and our leaders can collectively decide what is the best direction to take our country. I don't believe a good American would impugn the patriotism of his or her brothers and sisters just because they dare to ask questions.

But, then again, maybe that's the difference between you and me. It seems your religion metaphor is apt, but pointed in the wrong direction. I'm the one asking questions. You're the one demanding conformity and obedience to authority.

Have a good one.

 

[CoryKS]

More to the point, I don't believe that using tactics of intellectual bullyism or intimidation [...] is something a good American should be doing.

This statement is false.

 

[heretic888]

This statement is false.

Oh, really?

 

[Lisa]

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[Jonathan Randall]

May I offer an outsiders view? Coming from a country where it's a national sport to criticise strongly whoever is in power I find it strange that whenever an American criticises or questions their Establishment the word un-American comes up. As far as I know nobody here calls people un-British ( a lot of other things maybe but not that!) A healthy opposition makes for strong governments, everything especially governments, laws and polititicians should feel they are under our scrutiny. It doesn't matter in that respect whose views are right or wrong, the important thing is the debate. To be un-American ( or un any country) I think you would have to wish or be active in wanting to destroy your country, to act in it's worst interests. Using your right to free speech is not unpatriotic!

Great point and I appreciate your perspective. Welcome to Martial Talk, BTW!

I think that in recent years, Right Wing Talk Radio Demagogues have found the term so useful in beating up their political opponents that it's become such a common, if unethically used, term. IMO, nothing is so UN-American as using the Anti-American slur to silence dissent.

 

[Tez3]

Going back a few years ( shows my age I admit) the thing that has always bemused the British and Europeans has been America's very big fear and opposition to communism.Of all the countries in the world America has always been the least likely to turn Communist with literally only a few thousand active party members yet the Americans seemed paranoid about it, going to extreme lengths to oppose it. I think the current atmosphere dates back to then when you had the Un-American activities witch hunts and the black listing of people. If you didn't stand up and say you were anti-communist you were obviously one yourself. It seems that you are still feeling insecure in being a country.
This is NOT a criticism but there is a feeling in Europe too ( and this includes Britain) that you are so sure your way of life is right that you try and put it on all of us.... the American Way - a bit like eager missionaries and after 7/11 you seemed very surprised to find out that you weren't as well liked as you thought you were.We do like you but not the arrogance we see sometimes. We do not see you as the world's police and the belief of most people is that the war in Iraq is about money and oil not humanity. Our government is seen as Bush's poodles, licking his shoes as it were. ( It's usually put stronger and ruder than that)
What does appall us I'm afraid is the media in America rarely seem to cover stories outside America therefore the people seem to be lacking in knowledge about other people and countries. Our media is covering your elections in depth as it does with many other countires. Do you for instance know what has been going on in Zimbabwe? Far worse than Iraq yet no one talks about sending troops, there's war, famines and natural disasters all over the world yet they don't seem to be covered by the American media.
As I said it's not a criticism and I'm enjoying the debate on here, it's a healthy one! (thanx for the welcome btw!)

 

[CoryKS]

Going back a few years ( shows my age I admit) the thing that has always bemused the British and Europeans has been America's very big fear and opposition to communism.Of all the countries in the world America has always been the least likely to turn Communist with literally only a few thousand active party members yet the Americans seemed paranoid about it, going to extreme lengths to oppose it. I think the current atmosphere dates back to then when you had the Un-American activities witch hunts and the black listing of people. If you didn't stand up and say you were anti-communist you were obviously one yourself. It seems that you are still feeling insecure in being a country.
This is NOT a criticism but there is a feeling in Europe too ( and this includes Britain) that you are so sure your way of life is right that you try and put it on all of us.... the American Way - a bit like eager missionaries and after 7/11 you seemed very surprised to find out that you weren't as well liked as you thought you were.We do like you but not the arrogance we see sometimes. We do not see you as the world's police and the belief of most people is that the war in Iraq is about money and oil not humanity. Our government is seen as Bush's poodles, licking his shoes as it were. ( It's usually put stronger and ruder than that)
What does appall us I'm afraid is the media in America rarely seem to cover stories outside America therefore the people seem to be lacking in knowledge about other people and countries. Our media is covering your elections in depth as it does with many other countires. Do you for instance know what has been going on in Zimbabwe? Far worse than Iraq yet no one talks about sending troops, there's war, famines and natural disasters all over the world yet they don't seem to be covered by the American media.
As I said it's not a criticism and I'm enjoying the debate on here, it's a healthy one! (thanx for the welcome btw!)

Zimbabwe is a pretty good example of why America has been so opposed to communism. It's pretty much hell on earth now that Bob has nationalized the farms and everything else he could get his hands on. It also serves as an indication that we don't want to police the world. Let Zimbabwe go in the textbooks as "Why Socialism Doesn't Work, Pt 27", as long as they don't pose a threat to us. And all those wars, famines, and natural disasters? Those are not our problems to solve unless you really do want us to be the world's police.

It seems to me that the world sees the US as a tool to be used for their own purposes, but one that should just shut up about its own needs. That is not a statement directed at you, but just my opinion based on articles I have read. The internet has made a lot of international media more accessible, and we are getting a much better understanding of the the folks around us.

 

[Rich Parsons]

There is an interesting back story to this question.

Over the last 5 years, I have been called Un-American, and Anti-American, and even a "Traitor" in one case, for my continuing posting of non-mainstream news articles covering everything from civil rights, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, terrorism, election issues, and items critical to the current US administration and the laws it has passed and the actions it ha undertaken these past 5+ years.

So, the question here is, what does it really mean to be "Un-American"?

My reply is that to be Un-American would be to blindly follow those in the seats of power. To accept what they say without question, to not hold them accountable for what they do in our name, with our money, and with our lives.

A major reason why this country was created, was because the concerns of our fore-fathers were not being answered by the government then in power. Their rights were trampled on, their concerns of no interest, and their lives, property and wealth used and abused at the whim of a king. Documents were written that established an evolving central body of belief and hope for a new nation.

I have studied our past, read the thoughts of people like Washington, Franklin and Jefferson, and believe that this country has greatly strayed from their vision, and not is a god way. I believe that it is unAmerican to stay silent, to do nothing, to not get involved. I believe that simply accepting things, to not ask questions, to not demand answers, and to not hold those in office accountable, is to be Un-American.

As to anti-American? I don't know. To me, to be anti-American would be to wish it's demise. To see this once great nation vanish from the face and memory of this world. To see it fall, and become but a memory like the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans so long ago. This, I do not wish for.

The traitors to me, are those who spit on the Constitution, who while holding office complain about how it handcuffs them, and who seek to change it, so that they may more easily hold sway over us, and enrich themselves at our expense.

Those are my thoughts.
What are yours?

Bob,

Un-American, and other such titles people put on each other is just a way to get an emotional reaction out of someone. The people in power are trying to rule and stay their via FEAR. FEAR that you might be trying to take something away form them. They throw out little things to make them big, and ignore the other large issues for the country to really look at.

It also allows one to dehumanize another, and be able to argue and use their emotions and feelings and FEARs to make their points.


Personally, I think the sitting US Supreme Court is nto taking enough action. They wait for the people to out cry and spend money trying to get something to them, versus reviewing the action of the Legislation and Executive branches of the Federal Governement. The checks and balances are no longer in place or in balance. This is un or anit American.

I also think those that do not vote are not truly American as they are not using their rights, nor are they taking responsibility.

I also think those that attack others to try to make points, versus discussing the issues are Un-American and also trying to rule by FEAR.

But this is my opinion, and a I learned a long time ago my opinion does not match others. Yet, I would like to quote my current signature, " "Give Me Liberty, or Give me Death!" - Patrick Henry". There is a storm brewing in this country. It could brake up and move on, or it could continue to build, until the fury of it is unleashed upon the country, where Neighbor is faces against Neighbor, based upon some form of separation such as Religion, or race, or place of birth, or , ..., .


I repeat, " "Give Me Liberty, or Give me Death!" - Patrick Henry"

 

[matt.m]

So, the question here is, what does it really mean to be "Un-American"?

My reply is that to be Un-American would be to blindly follow those in the seats of power. To accept what they say without question, to not hold them accountable for what they do in our name, with our money, and with our lives.

A major reason why this country was created, was because the concerns of our fore-fathers were not being answered by the government then in power. Their rights were trampled on, their concerns of no interest, and their lives, property and wealth used and abused at the whim of a king. Documents were written that established an evolving central body of belief and hope for a new nation.

As to anti-American? I don't know. To me, to be anti-American would be to wish it's demise. To see this once great nation vanish from the face and memory of this world. To see it fall, and become but a memory like the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans so long ago. This, I do not wish for.

The traitors to me, are those who spit on the Constitution, who while holding office complain about how it handcuffs them, and who seek to change it, so that they may more easily hold sway over us, and enrich themselves at our expense.

Those are my thoughts.
What are yours?

I am somewhat in the same boat. I am a U.S. Marine Combat veteran from the Clinton era. I have been told that I was a traitor, etc. etc.

Look to be unamerican to me would be to not care what happens to the country and to have no consideration as to what happens to its society. To be a person of persuation or one of political power of any sort and be more interested in the agendy of you and you buddies and act accordingly to that course to me is unamerican. Afterall I support the troops, I was a Sergeant of Marines - but I don't support all the big brother activities and the illegal war etc. etc.

 

[Touch Of Death]

There is an interesting back story to this question.

Over the last 5 years, I have been called Un-American, and Anti-American, and even a "Traitor" in one case, for my continuing posting of non-mainstream news articles covering everything from civil rights, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, terrorism, election issues, and items critical to the current US administration and the laws it has passed and the actions it ha undertaken these past 5+ years.

So, the question here is, what does it really mean to be "Un-American"?

My reply is that to be Un-American would be to blindly follow those in the seats of power. To accept what they say without question, to not hold them accountable for what they do in our name, with our money, and with our lives.

A major reason why this country was created, was because the concerns of our fore-fathers were not being answered by the government then in power. Their rights were trampled on, their concerns of no interest, and their lives, property and wealth used and abused at the whim of a king. Documents were written that established an evolving central body of belief and hope for a new nation.

I have studied our past, read the thoughts of people like Washington, Franklin and Jefferson, and believe that this country has greatly strayed from their vision, and not is a god way. I believe that it is unAmerican to stay silent, to do nothing, to not get involved. I believe that simply accepting things, to not ask questions, to not demand answers, and to not hold those in office accountable, is to be Un-American.

As to anti-American? I don't know. To me, to be anti-American would be to wish it's demise. To see this once great nation vanish from the face and memory of this world. To see it fall, and become but a memory like the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans so long ago. This, I do not wish for.

The traitors to me, are those who spit on the Constitution, who while holding office complain about how it handcuffs them, and who seek to change it, so that they may more easily hold sway over us, and enrich themselves at our expense.

Those are my thoughts.
What are yours?

Where did you say you were from there... comrad?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Buffalo. Once burnt to the ground by the British, now hoping they come back with bigger torches.

 

[shesulsa]

This warrants repeating and my non-republican, anti-Limbaughist quotating support with the following chant: MEGADITTOS, RICH!!!!!

Bob,

Un-American, and other such titles people put on each other is just a way to get an emotional reaction out of someone. The people in power are trying to rule and stay their via FEAR. FEAR that you might be trying to take something away form them. They throw out little things to make them big, and ignore the other large issues for the country to really look at.

It also allows one to dehumanize another, and be able to argue and use their emotions and feelings and FEARs to make their points.


Personally, I think the sitting US Supreme Court is nto taking enough action. They wait for the people to out cry and spend money trying to get something to them, versus reviewing the action of the Legislation and Executive branches of the Federal Governement. The checks and balances are no longer in place or in balance. This is un or anit American.

I also think those that do not vote are not truly American as they are not using their rights, nor are they taking responsibility.

I also think those that attack others to try to make points, versus discussing the issues are Un-American and also trying to rule by FEAR.

But this is my opinion, and a I learned a long time ago my opinion does not match others. Yet, I would like to quote my current signature, " "Give Me Liberty, or Give me Death!" - Patrick Henry". There is a storm brewing in this country. It could brake up and move on, or it could continue to build, until the fury of it is unleashed upon the country, where Neighbor is faces against Neighbor, based upon some form of separation such as Religion, or race, or place of birth, or , ..., .


I repeat, " "Give Me Liberty, or Give me Death!" - Patrick Henry"

 

[mrhnau]

Buffalo. Once burnt to the ground by the British, now hoping they come back with bigger torches.

I'm sorry, but perhaps I'm misreading this. Are you implying you want your home burnt to the ground by the British? If so, isn't that kind of the essense of anti-american? I might not like where I live, but I'm sure not hoping for the red coats to come, invade, and burn down my town...

granted you might be joking, but jokes like that do give the impression of being anti-american. just a reminder of my previous post

What is anti-American? Deliberately pursuing aims against our nation and way of life, through word or deed.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'm sorry, but perhaps I'm misreading this. Are you implying you want your home burnt to the ground by the British? If so, isn't that kind of the essense of anti-american? I might not like where I live, but I'm sure not hoping for the red coats to come, invade, and burn down my town...

granted you might be joking, but jokes like that do give the impression of being anti-american. just a reminder of my previous post

Joking. That whole, we're currently up to our eyeballs in fallen trees. Ya gotta be here to appreciate the humor though. Sorry.

 

[mrhnau]

Joking. That whole, we're currently up to our eyeballs in fallen trees. Ya gotta be here to appreciate the humor though. Sorry.

humor, especially sarcasm, is exceptionally hard to miss in this internet medium...

 

[Tez3]

Buffalo. Once burnt to the ground by the British, now hoping they come back with bigger torches.

Is that a challenge lol? I'll come if the weather's better than here, I have a Maglite!

 

[Tez3]

Zimbabwe is a pretty good example of why America has been so opposed to communism. It's pretty much hell on earth now that Bob has nationalized the farms and everything else he could get his hands on. It also serves as an indication that we don't want to police the world. Let Zimbabwe go in the textbooks as "Why Socialism Doesn't Work, Pt 27", as long as they don't pose a threat to us. And all those wars, famines, and natural disasters? Those are not our problems to solve unless you really do want us to be the world's police

Zimbabawe is as far from being communist as you can get, it is a dictatorship, run by Mugabe for Mugabe's benefit. If you don't want to police the world why Iraq? Exactly what threat were they to you especially now it's been proved there were no WMD? You don't police natural disasters, you take a humanitarian attitude or if you prefer a neighbourly one and help out however you can, you have had your own disasters ie New Orleans where we all raised money to help, nothing to do with policing just being good neighbours.

 

[michaeledward]

Would a prominent conservative encouraging followers to obstruct democratic votes, or reports of voting irregularities on election day be considered 'Anti-American'?

I don't know, but to me, taking actions to prevent participation in our form of self-rule, just doesn't seem to be "above the line".

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/11/07/ingraham-voter-line/

Wait a second! So — (Laughter) you call 1 888 DEM VOTE — otherwise ‘Dim Bulb Vote’ or ‘Dumb Vote’ — and all you do is get tranferred to muzak, then they cut you off. This is what I’m thinking. Tell me if you think I’m crazy. This is what I’m thinking. I think we all need to call 1 888 DEM VOTE all at the same time. And, by the way, when you call, when you call the number — and remember, it’s ‘Dem Vote’ not ‘Dumb Vote’ — when you call the number, as we did, and we got transferred, transferred, then we just got hung up upon. You know, we’re supposed to have these election teams within a matter of minutes, they’re supposed to be coming to the polls. Can you imagine what those people look like? Halloween all over again. So if you have trouble with the poll, you’re supposed to call, via 1 888 ‘Dumb Vote,’ and this is what you get.

Nice.

 

[MBuzzy]

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE (I vote in every election): Isn't it every American's right NOT to vote as well as TO vote? I mean, aren't you are simply exercising your right to not have a say? Afterall, indifference and ignorance is not going to go away any time soon.


I get called Un-American and communist all the time, because I don't like Ice Cream....does that count?