What is an axe kick?
- Thread starter skribs
- Start date
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
........................ the first half of the kick (the upward part) is very loosely like a high section front snap kick, raising the support heel for additional height - the second half is akin to the second half of a downward kick but with additional forward extension?
I had previously taken the knee bend reference to mean a greater bend (as compared to a downward kick) during the actual contact portion of the movement - allowing more contact with the midsole area rather than the back heel. I'm more than prepared to alter that view though.
If I'm correct it now makes sense with my level of understanding that the downward kick passes any guard around either side to attack downward, while a pick shape passes (or pierces) the guard between opponents to attack forward and downward.
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1. There really is no "High Section" or kick to your own high section (above shoulder level) front kick in the system since the "Front " Snap kick needs to travel forward not upward and the highest level of Front snap is to your own Solar plexus height. Could be more of an "Upward" Kick. Also there is little to no knee bend on the extension.
2. As far as the knee bend and what people do, generally the more you bend the knee the lower your kick, so it is usually bent little if at all contrary to hat the text says.
3. Yes, Downward would pass the guard in a side to side motion. While pick shape could "Split " the guard on the upward motion, more common is to raise in front of the guard and have then
I had previously taken the knee bend reference to mean a greater bend (as compared to a downward kick) during the actual contact portion of the movement - allowing more contact with the midsole area rather than the back heel. I'm more than prepared to alter that view though.
If I'm correct it now makes sense with my level of understanding that the downward kick passes any guard around either side to attack downward, while a pick shape passes (or pierces) the guard between opponents to attack forward and downward.
........[/QUOTE]
1. There really is no "High Section" or kick to your own high section (above shoulder level) front kick in the system since the "Front " Snap kick needs to travel forward not upward and the highest level of Front snap is to your own Solar plexus height. Could be more of an "Upward" Kick. Also there is little to no knee bend on the extension.
2. As far as the knee bend and what people do, generally the more you bend the knee the lower your kick, so it is usually bent little if at all contrary to hat the text says.
3. Yes, Downward would pass the guard in a side to side motion. While pick shape could "Split " the guard on the upward motion, more common is to raise in front of the guard and have then
In response, to clarify, as I'm not sure I explained myself very well:
1. That's kind of what I was getting at - take a front snap kick and angle it upwards - it makes it no longer a front snap kick but uses the same superficial action of chamber and extend. Just upward instead of forward.
2. Again, broadly in agreement - the knee bend (in my mind) appears in the kicking leg after full extension, so as to further accelerate the downward motion.
From the text: "Be sure to keep the kicking leg straight while it is rising" (which kills point 1 if I'm honest with myself
)And
"The leg should be bent about 45° at the moment of impact"
Which contradicts the images for using the heel if referring to the kicking leg although this is not specified, but supports if using the ball - except in that part it only describes "slightly bent"...
3. Nothing of note to add
Actually, in addition - I think I've just realised one(!) of my possible reasons for some of the misinterpretation that I've had...
In the text, there is a set of pictures above the pick shape kick title right at the head of the page - I had always previously assumed these related to that kick but I'm now thinking that actually they relate to the downward kick which precedes them.
In the text, there is a set of pictures above the pick shape kick title right at the head of the page - I had always previously assumed these related to that kick but I'm now thinking that actually they relate to the downward kick which precedes them.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
1. Are you saying the highest target for a front Snap kick is the Solar Plexus? Any Front facing kick higher than the SP you call an Upward kick? I am just trying to get on the same page with your terminology.
"There is little to no knee bend on the extension." Would this be at or near the point of impact?
2. This has to be a style difference. In simplest terms, we point the knee at target. This is a beginners philosophy but is largely true. In competitive application, several kicks (front, crescent, hook, axe, round, side) start from a near identical chamber as not to broadcast what you are doing.
3. Agree
1. That's kind of what I was getting at - take a front snap kick and angle it upwards - it makes it no longer a front snap kick but uses the same superficial action of chamber and extend. Just upward instead of forward.
2. Again, broadly in agreement - the knee bend (in my mind) appears in the kicking leg after full extension, so as to further accelerate the downward motion.
From the text: "Be sure to keep the kicking leg straight while it is rising" (which kills point 1 if I'm honest with myself
And
"The leg should be bent about 45° at the moment of impact"
Which contradicts the images for using the heel if referring to the kicking leg although this is not specified, but supports if using the ball - except in that part it only describes "slightly bent"...
If I stand straight with my legs together and raise my knee is make a simultaneous Forward and Upward motion. Can you clarify what you are saying?
2. I am not clear on what you are saying. Are you referring to what the knee does post contact? In other words, the "return to ground" portion of the kick?
It is very common to have some bend in the knee at impact and especially for an axe kick is recommended so that the knee is not hyper-extended. I am not tall and used to frequently axe kick with my leg fully extended to get maximum reach. It works but comes at a price after a while.
I can see a leg bent at a 45° angle making greater power in that it would be a structurally stronger member but I do Not see it as a high percentage position to get in to unless it is a mid-section or lower kick.
Again, I am not certain I understand what you are saying.
OP
OP
skribs
Grandmaster
There are subtle differences in the way you move when you're going for height instead of distance. There's a difference whether I try to lift my leg high or thrust my leg out.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
I break it down into what the body is doing.
If you are talking vertical height, then it can be a discussion about only the leg motion and all that it takes do a high kick.
If you are talking distance with the leg/foot it is a much more involved conversation. I think teaching how to create distance is harder than teaching just height.
OP
OP
skribs
Grandmaster
I am talking about the difference between a front kick to the gut, and a head-level kick.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
Ok, so what are the subtle differences?
Sure, sometimes the body does different things when doing a low/mid level kick vs. a high kick; these are the body mechanics and strength & flexibility of the person quotients. The challenge is learning how to adapt and adopt correct technique for each.
OP
OP
skribs
Grandmaster
It's hard to describe. Things like how you open your hips, how you press against the ground, how you keep your shoulders. With a front snap kick, I'm going to have my planted leg firm on the ground, thrust my right hip forward and keep my shoulders and hands towards the target, so all of my weight goes into it. With an axe kick, I'm going to be up on the ball of my foot, I'm going to widen my hips and keep my shoulders back so my body doesn't get in the way.
It's almost like the difference between a jab and an uppercut, just harder to see since both kicks have to travel in the same direction for part of the journey.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Yes, from a terminology standpoint. Default levels for techniques in relation to your on body - High = Eye, middle = Shoulder - Low = Umbilicus, (There are exceptions and other technique specific levels. In the Chang hon system it is stated that "Middle" for front snap kick is one of the exceptions - being solar plexus - not shoulder level because if you try to do a front snap kick above your own solar plexus level your kick would not be traveling forward but n an upward angle at impact. Certainly one could view a kick higher than solar plexus that acted much like a front snap kick as a variation.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
No, this would be during the raising portion until it reached the Apex.
I also agree that "Straight" does not equal locked. I will admit to some leeway here in that locking the leg where impact might hyper-extend is bad, and a 5 degree end or so could still be considered straight (My opinion Only).
dvcochran
Grandmaster
I never advocate being on the ball of the foot unless the body/leg is moving/spinning in a circular motion. It just makes it easier for bad things to happen. I always look for the best kicking base possible. That said, I do not promote being heavy on the heels because this can slow you agility.
The body English you mention is true for both an Axe or high(er) front kick. That said, the body may just as easily go to slightly to either side to allow for the desired kicking trajectory. An "on the fly" sort of thing.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
The two targets are a great drill for working on getting a good chamber for almost all kicks.
OP
OP
skribs
Grandmaster
I do a similar one for hook kicks. At first, I give a target for the "back kick" or "side kick" and then the second target for the hook kick.
When they're comfortable with that, I just give them the hook kick target.
Later on, in order to help them tighten up the kick, I will give them a target to kick inside (because they'll do a wide sweeping kick that is way too slow).
Faith
Yellow Belt
I've also learned that a Nayro chagi is the axe kick in ITF.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
When I did industry training once I was smashing some round kicks on the kick shield and hurting people.
And the instructor told me that I was performing a strike to the something something nerve complex.
I was like "ummm thanks?"
Not sure how that makes you kick any harder but it definitely makes you sound like you know what you are on about.
Then of course we broke down levels of threats in to colors and practiced the deadly goosenecks.
Spoiler a person raging off his dome is a higher threat level than a guy who is mildly miffed.
And the instructor told me that I was performing a strike to the something something nerve complex.
I was like "ummm thanks?"
Not sure how that makes you kick any harder but it definitely makes you sound like you know what you are on about.
Then of course we broke down levels of threats in to colors and practiced the deadly goosenecks.
Spoiler a person raging off his dome is a higher threat level than a guy who is mildly miffed.
To me, the axe kick is going to be any of those variations where I'm intending to strike the target with the back of my heel as my foot comes down, mostly if not perfectly vertically. If I'm stretching using the motion, my dynamic movement is different than actually "striking," so I call those just stretch kicks.
Flexing the knee, or not, doesn't change the name of the kick for me, it's what's happening at the time of impact which defines it for me. Also, if I'm not striking witht he back of my heel, I'm doing either an inside or outside crescent kick.
For point tournaments, I had a lot of success with a jumping axe kick, which looked until right at the end like a jumping front kick, but it's pretty much useless in anything but point-fighting, so I put it on the shelf back when I shifted my focus.
Flexing the knee, or not, doesn't change the name of the kick for me, it's what's happening at the time of impact which defines it for me. Also, if I'm not striking witht he back of my heel, I'm doing either an inside or outside crescent kick.
For point tournaments, I had a lot of success with a jumping axe kick, which looked until right at the end like a jumping front kick, but it's pretty much useless in anything but point-fighting, so I put it on the shelf back when I shifted my focus.
