The ball of the foot is a lot stronger than I gave it credit for

[Gerry Seymour]

I think pretty much every move has some sort of counter to it. @Kung Fu Wang has lots of videos where Ability Y counters Ability X. But this always assumes that the other fighter knows Ability Y, and always ignores the possibility of Ability Z, which counters Y.

Not that there's anything wrong with these discussions. It makes sure you're aware of Y if you use X, it makes sure you know Y for if X is used on you, and it makes you think about what Z should be (if you don't know it already).

Yeah, I'd assume I'm a better target for an axe kick than you. You'd be more likely to recognize it. I'd be smugly thinking, "Heh, you missed with that front k........."

 

[dvcochran]

Sure, you can also enter outside in, but it's going to get caught and you'll get dumped on your head.

At least in a fighting/MMA/Muai Thai context.

I agree that it is not the best entry technique, but as a third or fourth it's totally landable. I wouldn't call it a go to but I land them in sparring sometimes.

I like using outside to inside kicks coming out of a clinch if my arms are on top so I can delay their block. I cannot pull it off very well anymore, but if you are quick at back leg side stepping a spinning kick, let the kick come by you and outside to inside an ax or crescent kick.

 

[JR 137]

I don't throw a lot of roundhouses, either. I haven't really paid much attention (probably should pay more) the actual proportion of what I throw, but I do know I favor my front kick over all others, at least when actually trying to impact with power (as opposed to a distraction, etc.).

I’m not much of a kicker. I haven’t kept stats either, but front kick is by far my most often used kick. I use it like a jab to get inside, and I use it like a Muay Thai “teep” (if that’s the right use of it) to push and create space. My favorite way to use it, even though percentage wise it’s probably the least, it to use it to stop someone in their tracks when they’re overly aggressive and coming in charging.

My second most used kick is the inside-out crescent kick (which you don’t use ). I use it as a close quarters kick; bring the knee up like a front kick, then swing the leg around and upside their head. That’s the only one that I consistently reach their head with. People say it’s not a powerful kick, but I disagree. Mine was pretty weak until I hit a bag with it repeatedly. If you’ve got shoes on, you’re striking with the edge of the sole, so you’d get the hard edge, and a burn if you’re angling it right. It can hit like a whip or power through.

Play around with it. It’s great for me inside. Think knee and elbow range/when you’re “in the pocket” or at the rock ‘em sock ‘em robots range. That’s my most comfortable range, so it fits me right. I’m the oddball kicker at the dojo; everyone else throws 90% roundhouse kicks. Very few people throw a front kick very often. Fewer throw the crescent kick. I land both effectively, especially with the guys who like to get up close. It’s not a very effective kick at traditional kicking range IMO.

Just some ideas to play with.

 

[drop bear]

I don't throw a lot of roundhouses, either. I haven't really paid much attention (probably should pay more) the actual proportion of what I throw, but I do know I favor my front kick over all others, at least when actually trying to impact with power (as opposed to a distraction, etc.).

I do a ball of the foot round house to the ribs. It becomes a half round kick half teep.

I don't do power front kicks though. As I find the snappier ones drop people more often for less effort.

 

[skribs]

Yeah, I'd assume I'm a better target for an axe kick than you. You'd be more likely to recognize it. I'd be smugly thinking, "Heh, you missed with that front k........."

Sometimes my ax kick starts as a front kick, but I miss. One of my favorite things to do are those double-kicks where the opponent thinks I missed and then I tag them.

The best way I use this is I go for a hook kick or crescent kick, most of my sparring partners will lean back to avoid it, and stand back up after the kick misses. That's the best time for a side kick to the chest.

 

[skribs]

I’m not much of a kicker. I haven’t kept stats either, but front kick is by far my most often used kick. I use it like a jab to get inside, and I use it like a Muay Thai “teep” (if that’s the right use of it) to push and create space. My favorite way to use it, even though percentage wise it’s probably the least, it to use it to stop someone in their tracks when they’re overly aggressive and coming in charging.

When I was a kid, my instructor leveled me with one of those when I ran in like an idiot.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I’m not much of a kicker. I haven’t kept stats either, but front kick is by far my most often used kick. I use it like a jab to get inside, and I use it like a Muay Thai “teep” (if that’s the right use of it) to push and create space. My favorite way to use it, even though percentage wise it’s probably the least, it to use it to stop someone in their tracks when they’re overly aggressive and coming in charging.

My second most used kick is the inside-out crescent kick (which you don’t use ). I use it as a close quarters kick; bring the knee up like a front kick, then swing the leg around and upside their head. That’s the only one that I consistently reach their head with. People say it’s not a powerful kick, but I disagree. Mine was pretty weak until I hit a bag with it repeatedly. If you’ve got shoes on, you’re striking with the edge of the sole, so you’d get the hard edge, and a burn if you’re angling it right. It can hit like a whip or power through.

Play around with it. It’s great for me inside. Think knee and elbow range/when you’re “in the pocket” or at the rock ‘em sock ‘em robots range. That’s my most comfortable range, so it fits me right. I’m the oddball kicker at the dojo; everyone else throws 90% roundhouse kicks. Very few people throw a front kick very often. Fewer throw the crescent kick. I land both effectively, especially with the guys who like to get up close. It’s not a very effective kick at traditional kicking range IMO.

Just some ideas to play with.

That sounds about like my use of the front kick, too, JR.

I'll have to ask one of the folks at the Karate dojo to show me their crescent kick. Their style isn't kick-intensive from what I've seen so far, but surely they've got some folks who are more into kicks than me and are good at these things.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I do a ball of the foot round house to the ribs. It becomes a half round kick half teep.

I don't do power front kicks though. As I find the snappier ones drop people more often for less effort.

That actually sounds a lot like the "rib kick" taught in most NGA schools. I've been revisiting it, but haven't figured a way to make it usable with my toe issues. Maybe after I've had the bone spur removed on my left foot (and healed from that) I'll have another go at it. It's one kick that didn't get much use at my old school, but I always thought was easier and more useful than folks made it out to be.

With the front kick, I work power some, but I rarely find myself using any kick for much power. A well-timed kick has enough mass behind it to hit like a hard punch without needing full power. The front is the only one I tend to use any real power with, but even that's not often as I think about it. In fact, the "front kick" I use most is actually part-way between the NGA front kick (oddly, done off the back leg) and the NGA hanmi kick (snap kick off the front leg, more of a circular path in the chambering).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sometimes my ax kick starts as a front kick, but I miss. One of my favorite things to do are those double-kicks where the opponent thinks I missed and then I tag them.

The best way I use this is I go for a hook kick or crescent kick, most of my sparring partners will lean back to avoid it, and stand back up after the kick misses. That's the best time for a side kick to the chest.

Remind me not to ever think I've made your kicks miss. You're describing some of my sparring tendencies way too well.

 

[dvcochran]

I’m not much of a kicker. I haven’t kept stats either, but front kick is by far my most often used kick. I use it like a jab to get inside, and I use it like a Muay Thai “teep” (if that’s the right use of it) to push and create space. My favorite way to use it, even though percentage wise it’s probably the least, it to use it to stop someone in their tracks when they’re overly aggressive and coming in charging.

My second most used kick is the inside-out crescent kick (which you don’t use ). I use it as a close quarters kick; bring the knee up like a front kick, then swing the leg around and upside their head. That’s the only one that I consistently reach their head with. People say it’s not a powerful kick, but I disagree. Mine was pretty weak until I hit a bag with it repeatedly. If you’ve got shoes on, you’re striking with the edge of the sole, so you’d get the hard edge, and a burn if you’re angling it right. It can hit like a whip or power through.

Play around with it. It’s great for me inside. Think knee and elbow range/when you’re “in the pocket” or at the rock ‘em sock ‘em robots range. That’s my most comfortable range, so it fits me right. I’m the oddball kicker at the dojo; everyone else throws 90% roundhouse kicks. Very few people throw a front kick very often. Fewer throw the crescent kick. I land both effectively, especially with the guys who like to get up close. It’s not a very effective kick at traditional kicking range IMO.

Just some ideas to play with.

Great strategy. If I understand your front kick technique, it is the same as what is often called a push kick. Same front kick chamber so you can use it really close, but it is a mid section strike with a lot of hip thrust.
A great inside/outside crescent combo; throw a few mid level kicks to set their expectation and to get their blocks staying low. When you are standing open to your opponent throw a back leg roundhouse. If they do not switch feet, continue moving forward and throw an inside/outside coming over the backside of their front shoulder. Knee chamber is very important since you are going high. I have also found that if you posture correctly while entering the crescent kick, some people never see it until it is too late.

 

[dvcochran]

I do a ball of the foot round house to the ribs. It becomes a half round kick half teep.

I don't do power front kicks though. As I find the snappier ones drop people more often for less effort.

I have read the word teep in a few post. Can you explain it to me?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I have read the word teep in a few post. Can you explain it to me?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

More ...

Notice how the fighters target the leg, hip, gut, ribs, chest, and occasionally even the head to control distance and disrupt their opponent’s technique.

Sometimes the fighters will turn their hips over for greater range so that the teep looks more like a side kick. However the point of impact is still usually the ball of the foot and the body dynamics are closer to a standard Thai front teep than a karate side kick.

 

[skribs]

I have read the word teep in a few post. Can you explain it to me?

The way I understand it, it's basically a front check kick or pushing kick.

The way side kicks get used a lot in TKD.

 

[JR 137]

Great strategy. If I understand your front kick technique, it is the same as what is often called a push kick. Same front kick chamber so you can use it really close, but it is a mid section strike with a lot of hip thrust.
A great inside/outside crescent combo; throw a few mid level kicks to set their expectation and to get their blocks staying low. When you are standing open to your opponent throw a back leg roundhouse. If they do not switch feet, continue moving forward and throw an inside/outside coming over the backside of their front shoulder. Knee chamber is very important since you are going high. I have also found that if you posture correctly while entering the crescent kick, some people never see it until it is too late.

My front kick is a push kick when I want to back them up to create some space or when they’re coming in hard. It’s more of a snap kick when I’m using it to get inside or start a combo, like a jab would be. In that instance it’s generally not a power kick; it’s more to get the reaction I want. I use it often enough and chamber it high enough when I actually use it so I can reliably bait them into dropping their hands to block it when I chamber. Then I’ll throw several hard and fast punches. Works great.

The crescent kick typically comes from a high chamb and in close. It goes over their lead shoulder (my back leg) and catches them on the side of the head. From where I’m throwing it, they typically don’t see it coming. One guy does every time though, and he catches it on his shoulder which isn’t the best situation for me. He’s a bit taller than the norm, so that plays a factor too. I’m just trying to figure out what he consistently sees that the others aren’t. I don’t want to ask though.

 

[dvcochran]

My front kick is a push kick when I want to back them up to create some space or when they’re coming in hard. It’s more of a snap kick when I’m using it to get inside or start a combo, like a jab would be. In that instance it’s generally not a power kick; it’s more to get the reaction I want. I use it often enough and chamber it high enough when I actually use it so I can reliably bait them into dropping their hands to block it when I chamber. Then I’ll throw several hard and fast punches. Works great.

The crescent kick typically comes from a high chamb and in close. It goes over their lead shoulder (my back leg) and catches them on the side of the head. From where I’m throwing it, they typically don’t see it coming. One guy does every time though, and he catches it on his shoulder which isn’t the best situation for me. He’s a bit taller than the norm, so that plays a factor too. I’m just trying to figure out what he consistently sees that the others aren’t. I don’t want to ask though.

Just spit balling; I wonder if he sees your shoulder rotating for the crescent kick after the setup?

 

[Metal]

Read this earlier, but was too busy to reply.

Also saw this video a few weeks ago:

So, when it comes to hook kicks, for showboard breaking and Kyeorugi the ball of the foot is always an option. In order to get that extra reach when needed. And as you can see, in the last kick of that serious of spinning hook kicks the guy uses the ball of the foot.

However, I would like to see those who say that the ball of the foot is stronger, break a thicker board with a spinning hook kick.

Let's take a look at an x-ray. Since I got foot surgery earlier this year I have one handy:

And at the heel we actually have two areas that we can use for hitting when hitting with the heel in a spinning hook kick. The heel is a massive piece of bone. Furthermore if you hit with the heel you hit the target in a small spot. If you hit with the whole ball of the foot (from 1st to 5th metatarsal) the area you hit is way bigger.


Hitting with the back (red area) - I'd call this the more traditional way:

Then there's the way of hitting it with the bottom (red area in the x-ray) of the heel. I'd call this the modern way and I'd say this way is less prone to injury:

Now imagine hitting with the ball of the foot:

I can see instructors teaching a foot position like in the 2nd and 3rd picture. In order to have less injuries and in order to have the extra reach in competition. However- I doubt there are many people who would consider the ball of the foot being stronger.

 

[dvcochran]

Read this earlier, but was too busy to reply.

Also saw this video a few weeks ago:

So, when it comes to hook kicks, for showboard breaking and Kyeorugi the ball of the foot is always an option. In order to get that extra reach when needed. And as you can see, in the last kick of that serious of spinning hook kicks the guy uses the ball of the foot.

However, I would like to see those who say that the ball of the foot is stronger, break a thicker board with a spinning hook kick.

Let's take a look at an x-ray. Since I got foot surgery earlier this year I have one handy:

View attachment 22171


And at the heel we actually have two areas that we can use for hitting when hitting with the heel in a spinning hook kick. The heel is a massive piece of bone. Furthermore if you hit with the heel you hit the target in a small spot. If you hit with the whole ball of the foot (from 1st to 5th metatarsal) the area you hit is way bigger.


Hitting with the back (red area) - I'd call this the more traditional way:
View attachment 22173


Then there's the way of hitting it with the bottom (red area in the x-ray) of the heel. I'd call this the modern way and I'd say this way is less prone to injury:

View attachment 22172


Now imagine hitting with the ball of the foot:

View attachment 22174


I can see instructors teaching a foot position like in the 2nd and 3rd picture. In order to have less injuries and in order to have the extra reach in competition. However- I doubt there are many people who would consider the ball of the foot being stronger.

Very well presented.

 

[skribs]

If you hit with the whole ball of the foot (from 1st to 5th metatarsal) the area you hit is way bigger.

Okay. What about the 1st metatarsal only?

 

[Buka]

Regardless of practicality or structural strength of materials to be broken, those jump up in the air Matrix guys are sure fun to watch.

Out of their fricken' minds, but fun to watch.