What if Wing Chun remained a concept...

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah, last Thursday in post #36 Jow Ga saidd the following regarding the WC clips he had seen on Youtube:



I also believe this to be untrue, but honestly, this is not the same as saying that 80% of VT/WC sucks!!!

Regarding footwork, the VT/WC I practice places great emphasis on footwork and mobility. But it is a style of movement that is very distinct from long-bridge kung-fu systems, and it's methods are probably pretty unfamiliar to Jow Ga.

For one thing, although we can move quickly in any direction, we are known for compact rather than long-range movements. My old sifu said that a WC man is like the king on the chess-board. He moves easily in any direction, but only a distance of one square. We do have passing-steps and three-angle walking that cover more ground, but they are not so commonly used.

Thank you, that was the most I've ever heard any one speak of in terms of WC footwork and it makes sense to me. Do you know of any videos that show this movement? I found one a long time ago and haven't been able to find it lately. Movement in long fist systems travel quite a distance. The idea seems to be able to be out of range by about an arms length and suddenly be on top of some one with attacks. We also shorten such long distances by using our opponent's forward motion. The rapid closing of distance will usually catch the opponent off guard.

I've been watching short movement used by boxers but their stance makes it difficult to do Jow Ga techniques with solid footing.

 

[LFJ]

I also believe this to be untrue, but honestly, this is not the same as saying that 80% of VT/WC sucks!!!

If you lack awareness of your own footing, you suck.

If there's an 80% chance of this being the case for any Wing Chun practitioner, then there's an 80% chance that all Wing Chun sucks.

That's the implication of his argument. I don't believe it is untrue. It's probably more like 90%, but there is still another 10% and I don't mind if he thinks I belong to the 80 or 90%. I don't care to prove the 10% to him.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you lack awareness of your own footing, you suck.

Doesn't mean that the person sucks. It means that the person may have tunnel vision and when you get tunnel vision you pay less attention to other parts of your body. If you are so focused on hitting someone in the face then your focus is drawn away from your legs and more towards the target you are hitting. Tunnel vision can pop up for a short period of time or it can pop up and stay through out the length of the fight. Tunnel vision can affect any fighting system and any fighter. Some fighting systems are more aware than others, but only because their legs get attacked often
To prove my point:
Both are Wing Chun, but only one practitioner is more aware of his legs. More specifically aware of his footing.

You may have also notice that one practitioner's footing is more stable than the other. Who seems to have a stance that is always trying to seek a root "tap dancing feet."

To be honest I don't know what percentage you belong to and never made claim that I did. I also never lumped you into the 80% or the 20% grouping. You did that on your own based on comments that I often see from Wing Chun practitioners on Youtube. You could have very easily put yourself in the category of the 20% that doesn't fit the characteristics that I pointed out as what I saw.

Geezer did exactly that and he clearly stated that he didn't fall in the 80% comment that I made. In addition he told me that he thought I was wrong. You know what I didn't do. I didn't sit here and try to tell him that I think he doesn't have good footwork. I didn't try to tell him that his system sucks. I accepted what he said and even thanked him for explaining how he views the footwork. You could have easily done the same.

Oh by the way. Based on that video that I posted I'm currently at 50%. I wonder how close I'll get to 80% if I look at 9 more random videos of Wing Chun sparring against someone who attacks the legs.

 

[LFJ]

Doesn't mean that the person sucks.

I disagree.

To be honest I don't know what percentage you belong to and never made claim that I did. I also never lumped you into the 80% or the 20% grouping.

You already said you assume that there's an "80% chance" Wing Chun practitioners from "any lineage" will be unaware of their feet and will have limited mobility, and that they intend to control your arms and run in with chain punches.

So, you assume this about me then without knowing how I stand, move, or what my fighting strategy is, only based on what you think you know about Wing Chun from Youtube videos and knowing that I practice some form of Wing Chun.

That's incredibly stupid.

If you can safely assume there's an 80% chance that practitioners from any Wing Chun lineage suck so badly as to blindly run straight in with no awareness of their feet, why bother spending so much time doing homework on them? You've already determined they'll likely be easy opponents. The rest you can deal with as they come. You should move on to researching other opponents.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you can safely assume there's an 80% chance that practitioners from any Wing Chun lineage suck so badly as to blindly run straight in with no awareness of their feet, why bother spending so much time doing homework on them?

You are the only person here that is saying that not being aware of one's feet (footwork, stance, etc) = "you suck."

 

[LFJ]

And lacking mobility, you said.

If someone isn't aware of their feet and lacks mobility, the likelihood of getting whooped is quite high. You still think they're pretty good if they're always getting beat because of this?

 

[JowGaWolf]

And lacking mobility, you said.

If someone isn't aware of their feet and lacks mobility, the likelihood of getting whooped is quite high. You still think they're pretty good if they're always getting beat because of this?

Only if someone attacks their legs. It's still possible for someone with bad footwork, bad mobility to still knock other people out and win fights. It happens all the time. But it rarely happens when someone attacks their legs. It's a good tactic to attack the legs of a person who isn't aware of their feet and lacks mobility. You attack people where they are weak and not where they are strong. If a Muay Thai fighter sees that you have weak legs and bad mobility, you can be pretty sure that he or she is going to kick your legs until you can't stand. There's no reason to attack the head because that's not the weakest point. Here's a video of people who don't suck but were unaware of their legs. People who like doing sweeps, low leg kicks, trips, and shoots for the legs understand the benefit of doing these things when people are aware of their feet.

You've already determined they'll likely be easy opponents.

If you fight people where they are weak then your battle will be easier. If you fight people where they are strong then your battle will be extremely difficult.

 

[LFJ]

You got Wing Chun figured out then. Sweep the leg!

You should move on now.

 

[geezer]

....You already said you assume that there's an "80% chance" Wing Chun practitioners from "any lineage" will be unaware of their feet and will have limited mobility, and that they intend to control your arms and run in with chain punches.

So, you assume this about me then without knowing how I stand, move, or what my fighting strategy is, only based on what you think you know about Wing Chun from Youtube videos and knowing that I practice some form of Wing Chun.

That's incredibly stupid.

Boy, somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning!

FWIW I don't think Jow Ga was even talking about you. Wasn't he talking about Youtube clips?

 

[guy b.]

Boy, somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning!

FWIW I don't think Jow Ga was even talking about you. Wasn't he talking about Youtube clips?

For VT it is great if Jow Ga Wolf believes what he sees on youtube.

 

[geezer]

For VT it is great if Jow Ga Wolf believes what he sees on youtube.

See that's the ticket. Look for the positive side of everything!

On another subject, here's something that recently occurred to me. If everyone except you and LJF quit posting on the WC forum for a while, you and LJF would be fighting with each other within about 15 minutes. That would be fun to watch. Or maybe not.

 

[JowGaWolf]

For VT it is great if Jow Ga Wolf believes what he sees on youtube.

Feel free to show a video example of what you think is a Good Wing Chun.

 

[guy b.]

Feel free to show a video example of what you think is a Good Wing Chun.

To what purpose?

 

[Juany118]

You are the only person here that is saying that not being aware of one's feet (footwork, stance, etc) = "you suck."

I believe his term is wrong but I get where he is going. I would say the practitioner is unprepared. Tunnel vision, if it is not simply a product of not being confident in your technique so you are thinking only about your hands, is often a product of physiology.

The human heart beat, in a combat situation, has a sweet spot, on average, of between 115-145 BPM. If you go above this range you literally get tunnel vision. Your brain simply stops working correctly, so coordinating hand and foot work becomes an issue, and unlike some other Martial Arts WC, in my experience, has a fair amount of fine muscle movements which exacerbate the coordination issue.

There are ways around this, build (and maintaining muscle memory) and practicing tactical breathing mitigate the issues tremendously. This physiological issue is tremendously important because in training, light contact sparring, dummy training etc we could do everything perfectly, including footwork, but in a real fight or, depending on your mind set, full contact sparring, that heart rate has to potential to throw it all out the window.

 

[SaulGoodman]

I believe his term is wrong but I get where he is going. I would say the practitioner is unprepared. Tunnel vision, if it is not simply a product of not being confident in your technique so you are thinking only about your hands, is often a product of physiology.

The human heart beat, in a combat situation, has a sweet spot, on average, of between 115-145 BPM. If you go above this range you literally get tunnel vision. Your brain simply stops working correctly, so coordinating hand and foot work becomes an issue, and unlike some other Martial Arts WC, in my experience, has a fair amount of fine muscle movements which exacerbate the coordination issue.

There are ways around this, build (and maintaining muscle memory) and practicing tactical breathing mitigate the issues tremendously. This physiological issue is tremendously important because in training, light contact sparring, dummy training etc we could do everything perfectly, including footwork, but in a real fight or, depending on your mind set, full contact sparring, that heart rate has to potential to throw it all out the window.

Adrenaline robs you of a huge amount of fine motor skills. 145 Bpm you begin to lose fine motor skills and when you hit 180 + only gross motor skills are available. It doesn't matter how great your wooden dummy form looks, all those clean movements are robbed from you due to the adrenaline dump. Auditory exclusion and tunnel vision are very common side effects also.

I'm not sure how much this is covered in tcma, I have never been to a Wc class where the instructor took the time to discuss the effects pre-fight/in-fight/post-fight adrenaline on ones skills. It's the main reason a lot of martial artists look like "bad kickboxers" when the sh@t hits the fan. And the worse thing about it is that it's very hard to re-create the pure shock of an adrenaline dump in regular training. I've attended rbsd courses where they go through scenario training in an attempt to get the old adrenaline going but even that ain't the same. Apart from real fighting, doorwork has been the only experience I've had where I got to "enjoy" exposure to adrenaline now and again. It sucks.

 

[Juany118]

Adrenaline robs you of a huge amount of fine motor skills. 145 Bpm you begin to lose fine motor skills and when you hit 180 + only gross motor skills are available. It doesn't matter how great your wooden dummy form looks, all those clean movements are robbed from you due to the adrenaline dump. Auditory exclusion and tunnel vision are very common side effects also.

I'm not sure how much this is covered in tcma, I have never been to a Wc class where the instructor took the time to discuss the effects pre-fight/in-fight/post-fight adrenaline on ones skills. It's the main reason a lot of martial artists look like "bad kickboxers" when the sh@t hits the fan. And the worse thing about it is that it's very hard to re-create the pure shock of an adrenaline dump in regular training. I've attended rbsd courses where they go through scenario training in an attempt to get the old adrenaline going but even that ain't the same. Apart from real fighting, doorwork has been the only experience I've had where I got to "enjoy" exposure to adrenaline now and again. It sucks.

Which is why first getting that muscle memory and then maintaining it is so important. You can get fine motor memory but it is perishable as all hell. I use, as an example, a soldier in combat. Clearing misfeeds, reloading and hitting the slide lock? These are fine motor skills BUT they MUST be maintained, not just built.

The tactical breathing is also important. Some would be surprised how much your breathing can effect your heart rate. I count myself lucky. My WC Sifu used to be an Operator serving high risk Drug Warrants in Baltimore and is now a Law Enforcement Consultant/Instructor. He thus teaches WC (and Inosanto Kali) from a Combative Perspective and he makes sure he teaches this stuff though, as an occupational hazard I had to learn it already, reinforcement never hurts.

 

[SaulGoodman]

Dans very cool, met him a long time ago. A walking encyclopedia of knowledge !

 

[LFJ]

Adrenaline robs you of a huge amount of fine motor skills. 145 Bpm you begin to lose fine motor skills and when you hit 180 + only gross motor skills are available. It doesn't matter how great your wooden dummy form looks, all those clean movements are robbed from you due to the adrenaline dump. Auditory exclusion and tunnel vision are very common side effects also.

And yet, in a high speed, high stress situation where fine motor skills are lost, some people still think they're going to stick, yield, and use "sensitivity" to manipulate arms! That whole strategy is based on one of the first things to disappear as soon as speed increases, never mind stress levels.

And our VT is called one-dimensional because we focus on simple things that actually work under real pressure.

 

[Juany118]

And yet, in a high speed, high stress situation where fine motor skills are lost, some people still think they're going to stick, yield, and use "sensitivity" to manipulate arms! That whole strategy is based on one of the first things to disappear as soon as speed increases, never mind stress levels.

And our VT is called one-dimensional because we focus on simple things that actually work under real pressure.

Fine motor skills can be turned into muscle memory and that is large part of over coming this issue. The problem is they degrade quickly without constant reinforcement. If this was not the case modern armies would collapse in battle because firearm use is all about fine motor skills.

 

[guy b.]

I'm not sure how much this is covered in tcma, I have never been to a Wc class where the instructor took the time to discuss the effects pre-fight/in-fight/post-fight adrenaline on ones skills. It's the main reason a lot of martial artists look like "bad kickboxers" when the sh@t hits the fan.

Remember: you are pretending to be a wing chun guy on this forum