Nah, it doesn't have to be viewed as a flaw. Different lineages have different ways of looking at the system. It's just a fact.
It's a flaw when it's not functional for lack of strategy.
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Nah, it doesn't have to be viewed as a flaw. Different lineages have different ways of looking at the system. It's just a fact.
Not true at all.
I repeatedly told Phobius it's not a primary action applied against a punch, and that it is indeed a forward action. It's the rotation of the elbow that laterally displaces the obstruction, not a sideways attack at an arm.
As Guy said, you guys do seem obsessed with throwing a bong at a punch, like you can't let go of the idea.
I think because your heads are so filled with application ideas. You need it to be this against that to make sense of it.
Judging from what posts?!
The multiple posts I had to make telling Phobius that bong-sau is not a primary action thrown at an incoming punch?? And you and he still don't get it...
If there's an incoming punch, my response should generally be to counter punch. Never bong-sau! If at range and in position to use my arms without raising my elbow, I would not bong. Bong-sau is only remedial, so it's not used very often in fighting. There is absolutely no necessity to use bong-sau in the scenario discussed and demoed by Emin and I would not.
My bong-sau is a remedial action to retake space. Everything is about taking space and attacking forward. I don't care what an opponent's arm is doing. The arm is not a target. Bong is just opening space for the punch it is coupled with. Two arms work as a unit. Both are directed forward and both help capture an attack line while hitting. That's it.
Look, this probably doesn't make sense to you, but everything is about controlling my own position and structures in a fight.
I'm not concerned with blocking, feeling, and controlling arms, or applying this move vs that move. My only concern is capturing space and attacking. It's a behavior reflex. The stimulus is my own bodily and spatial awareness. I'm not throwing a reactive bong-sau at a punch I see.
If you must think in terms of 1:1 application ideas, you won't understand it. I don't know what else to tell you.
Nah, it doesn't have to be viewed as a flaw. Different lineages have different ways of looking at the system. It's just a fact.
So to clarify, bong sau is against static arm? Meaning since if there is no arm you cannot do a bong sau given that such a move is like sacrificing your own arm for nothing. Or once more misstaken? I mean you want to retake space but bong sau actually does require something to do it against
VT is conceptually unique, was created in a vacuum and theoretically different from all other martial arts
What space is there to retake if opponent is guarding himself? Or is this only for situations then when opponent is stretching out his arms? I mean since you say you do not use a bong sau on punches. Not often I see people stretching out their hands during a fight unless when punching or trying to grab.
So to clarify, bong sau is against static arm? Meaning since if there is no arm you cannot do a bong sau given that such a move is like sacrificing your own arm for nothing. Or once more misstaken? I mean you want to retake space but bong sau actually does require something to do it against.
I don't care what it's "against". It's just clearing the way for the punch it's coupled with. It's not dependent upon what exactly the opponent is doing, but on our own position and need for a remedial action to regain an attack line.
Nothing any fighter does, once a fight has started, is concerned with only our position and the need for remedial action, because a bong can be used for far more than just clearing the way for a punch. As a matter of fact the chances are it will clear the way for a punch is quite slim because in all the real fights I have been in I have yet to run into a skilled fighter who basically keeps their arm out there so the bong or tan accomplishes this. A skilled fighter says "strike did not connect. Bring it back!!!"
What position we are in in direct relation to what the opponent is doing.
To be overly concerned about your current position is to miss half of the fight and to have no plan.
Bong-sau as I do it is a very sudden "paak" action from the elbow. Doesn't require prolonged contact. I don't do the stick and rotate thing.
Of course. Having an attack line obstructed is just that. Spatial awareness allows us to react to changes in position. It is not choosing this technique to deal with that technique. It's all about managing position.
I don't know what you're calling "overly concerned". Having spatial awareness and acting to sustain attack by spatial domination or to regain advantageous position to do so is how fights are won with VT.
It's part of an overall strategy that uses behavior reflexes, as opposed to 1:1 applications or unrealistically trying to interpret the opponent's energy through prolonged arm contact that doesn't occur.
You said "It's not dependent upon what exactly the opponent is doing, but on our own position and need." That is what led me where I went with my First point. This statement and then you response above, seem to be exclusive of one another.
Additionally I am confused then. In response to a request for clarification of "so bong is against a static punch" you simply said "bong is to open the path for a punch". As you did not actually answer the question asked directly, that is also why I said "if I understand correctly."
I can see a lack of strategy being the flaw of a practitioner, but not so much the fault of lineage. I doubt any style or lineage really started out with poor fighting strategies. Many practitioners misunderstand the system, that's the rub.It's a flaw when it's not functional for lack of strategy.
Again not the flaw of any lineage, but a flaw of the practitioner's understanding of the system.It can be viewed as a flaw if it introduces contradictory understanding or otherwise breaks the system
What if the practitioner who has a flawed understanding of the system is the head of a lineage and teaches their flawed understanding...?
That's a very real problem, but we can't point it out here or people start to get butthurt because they might be following such a lineage.
I understand your points very clearly. I would say, go by the way of Wu De. We can be tactful and position ourselves with others in a positive way, in-turn making a point much more readily heard and accepted. Go the respectful route always. How would your Sifu like you to respond to pointing out the flaws of others? I know that Wong Shun Leung would have wanted me to respond with respect and represent our lineage with the utmost pride. He would see no purpose in finding issues with other peoples' Wing Chun. In fact, he frowned upon it.
The practitioner with flawed understanding that teaches others is indeed an issue in our community. A never ending, debatable topic... But they're still just practitioners, regardless of their title or position. No lineage is responsible, some people get it and some don't. There's no way everyone is going to understand, and it's really not a big deal. Keep doing what you're doing and focus on your own Wing Chun. When you have the opportunity to share ideas with a student from another lineage, do so. At the end of the day, it's all about action anyway.
?
I've only repeated the exact same thing!
Doesn't matter what it is. The path is obstructed from above. Bong-sau clears the way for the punch it's coupled with. Simple as that.
I don't know why people are unable to wrap their heads around spatial awareness and acting to rectify position, or why they are so obsessed with defining a specific technique for it to be "applied against".
Too much 1:1 application thinking...
?
I've only repeated the exact same thing!
Doesn't matter what it is. The path is obstructed from above. Bong-sau clears the way for the punch it's coupled with. Simple as that.
I don't know why people are unable to wrap their heads around spatial awareness and acting to rectify position, or why they are so obsessed with defining a specific technique for it to be "applied against".
Too much 1:1 application thinking...
I understand your points very clearly. I would say, go by the way of Wu De. We can be tactful and position ourselves with others in a positive way, in-turn making a point much more readily heard and accepted. Go the respectful route always. How would your Sifu like you to respond to pointing out the flaws of others? I know that Wong Shun Leung would have wanted me to respond with respect and represent our lineage with the utmost pride. He would see no purpose in finding issues with other peoples' Wing Chun. In fact, he frowned upon it.
The practitioner with flawed understanding that teaches others is indeed an issue in our community. A never ending, debatable topic... But they're still just practitioners, regardless of their title or position. No lineage is responsible, some people get it and some don't. There's no way everyone is going to understand, and it's really not a big deal. Keep doing what you're doing and focus on your own Wing Chun. When you have the opportunity to share ideas with a student from another lineage, do so. At the end of the day, it's all about action anyway.
This is the point I was trying to make in my last post to geezer.
But discussing it with people who keep looking for 1:1 applications seems kind of impossible.
Can't see the forest for the trees. If you don't understanding strategy, you're left thinking in terms of this vs that.
Many Wing Chun lineages seem to have all the "hands" and possible application ideas for them, but lack any sort of overall fighting strategy. That's probably the largest flaw when it comes down to it.
The below is simply based on general fighting experience, no particular art.
Spatial awareness is about being aware not only of how you are positioned in 3 dimensional space but how your opponent is positioned in same said space. Have you compromised their balance/center? Are (again not strictly 1:1) you and your opponent positioned in such a way that he is most likely to go low, high, come from the left of the right or even just try a straight up "bum rush?" These are all things a person who has practice in real fighting can determine. If you have repeated the exact same thing...that what your enemy is doing is unimportant, that your positioning is all that is important and yet spatial awareness of your opponent is important, then you have consistently contradicted yourself.
You seem to see fighting in real life as it is taught in theory in class. There is theory, then training, then practical application. Sparring = training btw because usually you are sparring in training against people following the same theory as yourself.
"Open up the center so you can strike until the enemy is down." Irl fighting this does NOT happen against fighters that are even just experienced in "street fighting" and not formally trained. They understand instinctively when their center is open. You may get a couple attacks in but then they cover, clinch, get distance whatever and then the fight is one again. What you describe is only truly effective against someone who is engaging in feral attacks with no thought or if your skill/technique and "killer instinct" are simply overwhelming when compared to your opponent.
I agree on one thinking straight up 1:1 is bad. When I say this I mean "Pak that kind of attack, tan this, bong that." However with experience this is how a fight should go...
1. Your first move is always a strike. Fights start with the other guy pushing, chesting bumping, something to size you up. You don't know what their first attack is going to be, how they will orient. Once they make any contact or enter your personal space (if legal) strike.
After that however you can actually read the opponent. Not in specific detail, aka 1:1 but in terms of will they go high or low, come from the left or right, based on their immediately previous action and your reaction to it. This is dictated by your position relative to theirs.
All you need to do is think "knees, elbows and shoulders." Did your previous action stop the left? The right is coming. Is he bladed so that the right side is closest to you and is the right "up" then it's going to be a straight shot or a tight hook. Is that right low? Look for a body shot.
Is he starting to square up on you? Look for a rush/clinch. So now it's not about going through his attacks, it's about trying to circle to his blind side.
Is he carrying more weight on the back leg and not leaning in like a boxer? The guy has kicking in his arsenal etc.
Now the above is a GROSS generalization I am just demonstrating that it need not be 1:1. You don't need to know exactly what they are going to do in order to prepare a specific counter. You simply need situational awareness, learn to read body language and those points that, on ALL fighters, give you a clue as to what is likely happening next.
If you can't do the above then you can't adapt. On the street you never know how to your opponent is going to fight until it starts and if all you are worried about is opening a center, that irl can only be opened briefly against all but the lesser skilled of opponents, you are screwed because when that door closes, and believe me it will, what next? Try to continuously reopen that door? That is fighting's equivalent to banging your head against a wall. The wall MIGHT given in, it might not. Even if the wall does give you are coming out the worse for wear.
The problem is the modern variations on most traditional martial arts are based on theory and training. The original forms that were often more conceptual, like WC, were conceptual because in the 18th, 19th and even early-mid 20th centuries the practitioners fought real fights, often against different styles. As such adaptation, upon a consistent foundation, was built in. However when modern variations are created they all too often create the training based on theory, but as society now frowns upon no holds barred challenge matches the practical application, that proves or disproves the new theories, is lacking.
This isn't to say modern iterations have no benefit, they do, but the practitioner needs to understand that the practical application of the theory and training of their art needs to have practical application added to it. Too few schools do this, so the practitioner may have to branch out. Make friends with people who study other arts and will let you spar with them. There are actually some good video channels that focus less on pure martial art forms and more on the combative side.
I only say the above btw because you keep saying "too much 1:1 thinking". I have been in more than my fair share of rl fights and it simply isn't as black and white as you seem to be making it.