What if MMA matches were fought to the death?

[RTKDCMB]

Just one more...

At least one more than the other lads.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Old age doesn't guarantee wisdom.

True, but having wisdom helps you get to old age.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Well I train with knives, sticks, swords, handguns and AK-47 too. We already know that knives and swords will beat any unarmed MMA fighter and a guy with a shotgun + 10 round mag should kill any silly Ninja running up to him with a sword easily.

Any real Ninja would not allow the guy with the shotgun to see them running up to them with a sword - being stealthy and all.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, it's usually very difficult to explain to people who don't fight nor spar full contact, how much of their techniques wouldn't work in a real fight vs. someone who's an experienced fighter. This was why the early UFC's were so beautiful as it pitted styles vs. styles to prove what worked and what didn't. There were no disqualifying technique. All Ninja Death Strikes were available, and none of them worked vs. 165 lb Royce Gracie who just took them down and dominated. And the Brazilians have been fighting their no rules matches of Vale Tudo for decades before. MMA today is leaps and bounds beyond what Royce Gracie was 20+ years ago in 1993. 1993 Royce in his prime, would maybe be a decent contender in today's MMA, but nowhere near top contender nor champion.

What I like about the Krav Maga school that I'm sparring at currently is that they have legit Pro and Amateur MMA fighters there so there's a respect for real techniques and what experienced fighters can do. There's no hooplah about how KM is so deadly and not meant for sport. And it's during sparring that they find out real quick that they can't just walk up to me and kick me in the nuts. Simple jabs and footwork stops them dead in their track.

And the thing is if you can krav a pro mmaer. Then you can really krav.

I am happy for people not to spar. But if they don't they still need to show that their stuff will work. Sparring is one method self defence is another. But I want to see it tested.

Scripted drils and combat scenarios probably not so much. But even then if I saw a good one that would be a bit reasonable.

But otherwise they are right about the style bashing. You are not allowed to do it. So for me I just keep asking for proof and not accept peoples opinions as fact generally.

 

[drop bear]

We've moved on to tactically useless as you've been insisting on questioning the approach of my system… and I've been pointing out that the tactical application and requirements are fairly different… to the point that the MMA tactics you are bringing up are tactically useless to my needs.

I'm not MMA.



See, you're halfway there… our punching method is very different, and yes, there are specific reasons for that.



Er… no, not necessarily. Not at all, actually.



Yes, MMA has it's reasons, absolutely. But thinking that just because MMA has it's reasons for it's applications within MMA contexts that that means it's the right approach for other contexts is rather, well, fanciful.



Yeah, far from what I'd advise as well… but I'm not sure what your point is here.



Ha, that was only a part of my collection…



Yep, that's exactly what I've been saying. We'll see if it gets through...



Same… mind you, an RNC is not one of my "go-to" action… we have… nastier approaches to such methods (standing).

Then if your context is different please show me your system working in context.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Yeah, it's usually very difficult to explain to people who don't fight nor spar full contact, how much of their techniques wouldn't work in a real fight vs. someone who's an experienced fighter.

And you're basing this on what exactly?

This was why the early UFC's were so beautiful as it pitted styles vs. styles to prove what worked and what didn't. There were no disqualifying technique. All Ninja Death Strikes were available, and none of them worked vs. 165 lb Royce Gracie who just took them down and dominated.

And then got so beaten up by Kimo, who had no martial arts training, that he could not continue. I don't remember seeing any 'Ninja death strikes' thrown at him, in fact the only guy who did Ninjitsu didn't even fight Royce Gracie.

It's been said before and I'll say it again, there was NOTHING proven in any meaningful or relevant way about what works or not or what styles are effective or not due to the very limited amount of data obtained (only a few out of the 100's of styles represented, only a few practitioners out of the millions competed, only a few match-ups etc). It is like testing a new medicine on 5 people and expecting the FDA to approve it.

Simple jabs and footwork stops them dead in their track.

I would say that, either, they are beginners or just not very good. For most of the martial artists I know it takes a lot more than simple jabs and footwork to stop them.

 

[drop bear]

So in this hypothetical death match we can use anything that you have available for your style of MA on the battlefield or are we now making rules. I mean Krav is not taught for the ring in the first place, but principally at lower levels empty hand. Later it includes weapons as does Systema. Chris would have all the things that I have seen at his Dojo. I mean with some of the stuff he has you would be lucky to even make it into the ring. Looks like the match needs to be transferred to the Colosseum after all.



I can't see anything from Krav fitting into a sports perspective. Krav is designed to finish a fight in seconds rather than minutes. It's techniques are to destroy, not submit. It trains to regain your feet if you go to the ground, not to try to wear your opponent down. Apart from that, why would anyone want to make it into a sport? The modifications that would make it 'street viable' are the basic principles. If it was going to be for sport, why would anyone bother with things like Krav and Systema. Those styles of MA wouldn't be worth a cracker if you took out the things that make them work.



I teach rear naked choke and many other chokes as well. I teach how to apply them properly, how to reverse them or escape from them and how to apply them in a way that is extremely difficult to escape. But it each them as standing chokes. Sure they can be used on the ground if required but in Krav that is the least preferred option. I don't teach anything like the triangle choke because I don't want my guys spending more time on the ground than they need. I don't teach ground and pound. I would rather my guys be on their feet where they could kick or stomp. Ground and pound is fine in a one on one situation but if there is a possibility of more than one opponent then you can be in trouble real fast.
:asian:

I have no issue people adding elements. But it seems chris was telling me that we are now off topic and should stay there.

Can I see krav then finishing a fight in seconds please? If that is your context let's see that.

I understand that you may not do elements like the triangle choke. But some of the elements you do are not really the best for the job. Especially if they are sports elements to start with.

 

[drop bear]

And you're basing this on what exactly?



And then got so beaten up by Kimo, who had no martial arts training, that he could not continue. I don't remember seeing any 'Ninja death strikes' thrown at him, in fact the only guy who did Ninjitsu didn't even fight Royce Gracie.

It's been said before and I'll say it again, there was NOTHING proven in any meaningful or relevant way about what works or not or what styles are effective or not due to the very limited amount of data obtained (only a few out of the 100's of styles represented, only a few practitioners out of the millions competed, only a few match-ups etc). It is like testing a new medicine on 5 people and expecting the FDA to approve it.



I would say that, either, they are beginners or just not very good. For most of the martial artists I know it takes a lot more than simple jabs and footwork to stop them.

Not if they are really good jabs and footwork. I still get stopped by simple jabs and footwork.

 

[RTKDCMB]

And the thing is if you can krav a pro mmaer. Then you can really krav.

I am happy for people not to spar. But if they don't they still need to show that their stuff will work. Sparring is one method self defence is another. But I want to see it tested.

Scripted drils and combat scenarios probably not so much. But even then if I saw a good one that would be a bit reasonable.

But otherwise they are right about the style bashing. You are not allowed to do it. So for me I just keep asking for proof and not accept peoples opinions as fact generally.

I have repeatedly asked you, and those who share your views (And we know who they are) to show a video of yourself training and you have not obliged, yet you want proof. If you want proof of how well a self defence martial art works in a context it is designed for, then go attack someone who does it (that is the only way you will know for sure), I do not recommend it.

Basically I do not have to prove the earth is round to those who believe it is flat, I know it's round and that's all that matters to me.

 

[drop bear]

I have repeatedly asked you, and those who share your views (And we know who they are) to show a video of yourself training and you have not obliged, yet you want proof. If you want proof of how well a self defence martial art works in a context it is designed for, then go attack someone who does it (that is the only way you will know for sure), I do not recommend it.

Basically I do not have to prove the earth is round to those who believe it is flat, I know it's round and that's all that matters to me.

I don't want to attack anybody. I don't see how that is necessary and I haven't asked for any individual to expose themselves to criticism. I just want to see their system working in the context they say it works.

And you also don't have to prove the earth is flat to those who believe it is round?

 

[K-man]

I have no issue people adding elements. But it seems chris was telling me that we are now off topic and should stay there.

Can I see krav then finishing a fight in seconds please? If that is your context let's see that.

I understand that you may not do elements like the triangle choke. But some of the elements you do are not really the best for the job. Especially if they are sports elements to start with.

Firstly the only elements I add to any of my training are possibly elements of Systema. I don't train any sport elements so I don't know where that comment comes from.

As far as finding video of the type of Krav training I am referring to, I couldn't find one. If I do find one I will post it later. However if you are anywhere near a Krav school you could observe first hand what I am talking about. Most fights are over in seconds so I'm not sure why you want me to post video to show Krav guys training that. We train to enter, clinch, knee and elbow as fast as possible but with control.

This is is along the same lines that I am describing. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qWJlooO_4jQ

Boxers train to go 2 or 3 minute rounds, MMA normally 5. Street fights don't last that long. We are not training for the ring and we are not training to take on trained fighters.
:asian:

 

[RTKDCMB]

I don't want to attack anybody.

That is good to hear.

I don't see how that is necessary and I haven't asked for any individual to expose themselves to criticism. I just want to see their system working in the context they say it works.

A self defence art works in the context of self defence, that is someone attacking someone who does that art and they had no choice but to defend themselves. Testing that art in a sporting context or a challenge match will never give you a true indication of whether that art works for self defence or not. Testing a sporting art in a sporting context is fine.The only true test of a self defence art will only come from a real attack by someone trying to assault them. That is the only test that matters and even that is subjective and depends upon the circumstances, the attacker and the practitioner getting attacked etc. The art I study has never been used in the UFC or any other MMA format, so some might think it has not been 'proven' but many of our students and black belts have been attacked in the street and most have managed to defend themselves successfully with not too much trouble, even against multiple attackers, so that to me is proof enough it works for me to continue teaching and training it.

 

[drop bear]

Firstly the only elements I add to any of my training are possibly elements of Systema. I don't train any sport elements so I don't know where that comment comes from.

As far as finding video of the type of Krav training I am referring to, I couldn't find one. If I do find one I will post it later. However if you are anywhere near a Krav school you could observe first hand what I am talking about. Most fights are over in seconds so I'm not sure why you want me to post video to show Krav guys training that. We train to enter, clinch, knee and elbow as fast as possible but with control.

This is is along the same lines that I am describing. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qWJlooO_4jQ

Boxers train to go 2 or 3 minute rounds, MMA normally 5. Street fights don't last that long. We are not training for the ring and we are not training to take on trained fighters.
:asian:

This is the thing about context. If the context is drills then the sports model is the same as the street. And why I am harping on resisted vs unresisted and not street vs sport.

that drill is parrying boxing style parries. And returning with punches and elbows. Good parries are good parries regardless. Returning with good punching and an elbow is the same.

A great boxer or Thai guy will give you the best method to apply that. With all the variables that go in to making those work. A kraver who could box would do the same.

But ignoring the boxing method within that because there is some sort of difference is making a mistake.

Even sparring would help that drill. A lot of that is hard to pull off if you don't know the move is coming. The head control works but if they squirm you need an option for that. But you are not going to find that out unless you find a training method where those moves come out of the blue.

 

[K-man]

This is the thing about context. If the context is drills then the sports model is the same as the street. And why I am harping on resisted vs unresisted and not street vs sport.

that drill is parrying boxing style parries. And returning with punches and elbows. Good parries are good parries regardless. Returning with good punching and an elbow is the same.

A great boxer or Thai guy will give you the best method to apply that. With all the variables that go in to making those work. A kraver who could box would do the same.

But ignoring the boxing method within that because there is some sort of difference is making a mistake.

Even sparring would help that drill. A lot of that is hard to pull off if you don't know the move is coming. The head control works but if they squirm you need an option for that. But you are not going to find that out unless you find a training method where those moves come out of the blue.

I'm not sure why you are trying to teach me how to teach my class. You have no idea how we train. Just because you train one way does not invalidate the way we train. I used to box. I understand what you are saying. But the boxing style training we do in Krav is not the same as you would do in your MMA. It is for a different purpose. It is to learn to defend against a boxer type attack, how to move in to clinch on a boxer type attack, to develop continuous attacking and to condition against being hit. It is not for the ring and it is not to pace yourself to last through a three minute round. Krav is an explosive art. Burst in through the attacker's defence and destroy. I do not want to teach boxing and I am not ignoring the boxing method. I think you are confusing what I teach in Krav and what I teach in Goju. Perhaps we would do better if you concentrated on your MMA and leave me to my areas of expertise.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure why you are trying to teach me how to teach my class. You have no idea how we train. Just because you train one way does not invalidate the way we train. I used to box. I understand what you are saying. But the boxing style training we do in Krav is not the same as you would do in your MMA. It is for a different purpose. It is to learn to defend against a boxer type attack, how to move in to clinch on a boxer type attack, to develop continuous attacking and to condition against being hit. It is not for the ring and it is not to pace yourself to last through a three minute round. Krav is an explosive art. Burst in through the attacker's defence and destroy. I do not want to teach boxing and I am not ignoring the boxing method. I think you are confusing what I teach in Krav and what I teach in Goju. Perhaps we would do better if you concentrated on your MMA and leave me to my areas of expertise.

Which is drills?

And it looks the same.

Having discussion about street vs sport I think the concept mostly does not apply.

More accurately I think the better explanation would be. I train for unscripted and resisted attacks.

 

[wingchun100]

This is a gruesome question and I apologize for offending anyone, but what if winning was determined by killing you opponent with your bare hands? How would that change the sport? What would a match look like? What would the fighters fight for? What would be the impact on the MA community assuming that MMA remains wildly popular.

It would be an event that didn't live up to the MA part of the abbreviation. You would have people in it who might be good at killing, but not necessarily good at martial arts.

 

[wimwag]

It would be an event that didn't live up to the MA part of the abbreviation. You would have people in it who might be good at killing, but not necessarily good at martial arts.

Points would be purely symbolic. Bring your own weapon. I choose weedeater.

 

[RTKDCMB]

This is the thing about context. If the context is drills then the sports model is the same as the street.

That would depend upon the purpose and intent of the drill. If you are drilling defenses against a certain type of attack the sport model might only involve counters that are within the competition rules and only to the legal scoring areas whereas the 'street' method will involve counters that are designed to damage the weak points. A sporting method would not include kicks to the groin for example.
.

 

[drop bear]

That would depend upon the purpose and intent of the drill. If you are drilling defenses against a certain type of attack the sport model might only involve counters that are within the competition rules and only to the legal scoring areas whereas the 'street' method will involve counters that are designed to da

mage the weak points. A sporting method would not include kicks to the groin for example.
.

Not really as the training is fundamentally the same. It is then just a style variant. A kick boxing drill is not the street version of boxing.

 

[wingchun100]

Points would be purely symbolic. Bring your own weapon. I choose weedeater.

Points being symbolic in MMA? Why not? That's what happened to video games. Seriously, can anyone name the last game they played where points mattered?