What if MMA matches were fought to the death?
- Thread starter Makalakumu
- Start date
OP
OP
I think we'd see more attacks designed to disable the opponent so that a killing technique would be applied. Chokes would be applied to unconsciousness and follow up techniques would be applied. People would be knocked out and stomps would be applied to finish. Certain head first throws would be employed that would immediately disable the opponent. Neck breaking techniques would appear in the wrestlers repertoire. There would be no tap outs.
Cyriacus
Senior Master
Speaking of which, didnt PRIDE used to have stomping?
OP
OP
Yup, and damn I thought someone was going to die. I remember Wanderlei stomping on some dudes head! But then the ref jumped in...
Wouldn't ya just keep applying the choke as a "follow up technique?"
I mean,"no blood flow to the brain/air flow to the lungs"= death, eventually....
OP
OP
Good point. LOL.
Cyriacus
Senior Master
I remember the Soccer Kicks more. I specifically have this recollection of someones (I dont recall specifics) head bending nearly 90 degrees sideways, and I honestly thought He was surely maimed. But He was ok. Well, besides being unable to defend Himself enough for the Referee to stop it.
EDIT: It *may* have been Cro Cop. To Youtube!
Omar B
Senior Master
Not 50/50 but.....
You could have tried to pick a worse example to prove me wrong but in fact you chose pne that actually makes my point. They are wearing armor (including helms not used in battle), wooden lances, established rules about points values for unhorsings, 8 times at the stocks. All there to make sure the "knight" survives.
What if MMA matches were fought to the death?
Then they would be held in here
Not in here
Not all matches were fought to the death. They had enough common sense death might get in the way of reusing the popular gladiators. I think over the centuries the rules and attitude in the colloseum varried, from an WWE thing to sick the Lions on those christians.
SandaBoxing
White Belt
MMA fights already starts out as a fight to the death. It just gets stopped before serious injury or death can occur.
Trying to put your fists, knees, elbows, shin, etc. into someone's face as hard as you can, and repeatedly until he gets KO'ed or TKO'ed is indeed doing the same as trying to kill him in the street, prison, etc. with your limbs. A KO is a KO. From the thousands of streetfight videos available online, most streetfights also ends when there's a KO. Either by the bystanders, the cops or even the guy who won; he stops. Rarely does anyone gets head stomped to death.
And a choke hold that's sunk in is certainly a death move. If an MMA fighter chokes you out in a streetfight with no witnesses around in a dark alley, he now has your life in his hands and the decision that you live or die, is now his. Same if you got KO'ed by him. He can chose to go home and eat a Hot Pocket or stay and headstomp you to death.
Trying to put your fists, knees, elbows, shin, etc. into someone's face as hard as you can, and repeatedly until he gets KO'ed or TKO'ed is indeed doing the same as trying to kill him in the street, prison, etc. with your limbs. A KO is a KO. From the thousands of streetfight videos available online, most streetfights also ends when there's a KO. Either by the bystanders, the cops or even the guy who won; he stops. Rarely does anyone gets head stomped to death.
And a choke hold that's sunk in is certainly a death move. If an MMA fighter chokes you out in a streetfight with no witnesses around in a dark alley, he now has your life in his hands and the decision that you live or die, is now his. Same if you got KO'ed by him. He can chose to go home and eat a Hot Pocket or stay and headstomp you to death.
OP
OP
I don't know why this never registered, but it's true. The ref is stopping the action if it's going to actually kill. However, the ref is also stopping a bunch of other actions that are illegal.
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
Would the fighters be less skilled as it would be harder for them to gain real experience?
Fast finishes that are currently illegal, like the throat punch, groin kick as an opener, and deliberate strikes to the base of the skull would be more prevalent. I think we would see fewer techniques that take time to apply, and more bias towards lower-risk-higher-return striking combos.
I'd be interested to see a match where you put three people in the octagon at the same time, to see how that would change the MMA game.
Gnarlie
Fast finishes that are currently illegal, like the throat punch, groin kick as an opener, and deliberate strikes to the base of the skull would be more prevalent. I think we would see fewer techniques that take time to apply, and more bias towards lower-risk-higher-return striking combos.
I'd be interested to see a match where you put three people in the octagon at the same time, to see how that would change the MMA game.
Gnarlie
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Three people winds up stupid. Two people engages an one snipes. So nobody wants to engage. And it becomes a stand around fest.
SandaBoxing
White Belt
True that there are many rules now in current MMA compared to what was allowed in early UFCs. But even with the current rules of MMA, there are NO OTHER martial arts tournament that allows the same level of brutality as MMA. All of the TMA's that claims they're too deadly for MMA, yet they also conduct their own tournaments with a megacrap-ton of rules and regulations as well as all the body armor worn, rivaling riot gear of prison guards.
During the early UFC's, especially UFC 1-4, there were only 3 illegal techniques which were no biting, no eye gouging (eye strikes were legal) and no fish-hooking. But these moves did not disqualify the fighter nor stop the fight. He was fined $1,000/incident. Each fighter was paid $2,000 per fight (win or lose) and the main purse for winning it all was $60,000. Therefore, a fighter could have use these wussy ladies' tactics of biting and eyegouging, be fined but still come out way, way, way ahead should she wins the $60,000 prize, which was enormous for any martial artists up to that time as the average full time MA'ist made squat as a salary. And $60k was a lot in 1994, still nice today too for a day's work.
Eye strikes was certainly allowed, so were strikes to the throat, nutsack, back of the head, spinal column, all pressure points, etc. Raining knees and elbows to the face/head of down opponent, soccer kicking someone's head on the ground, stomping their skull pressed against the mat, no problem at all and was done in quite a few fights. Yet Royce Gracie proved that his BJJ style beat them all and all other styles. Jason Delucia (Kung-Fu) tried to get out of a hold by eye gouging Gracie, which is why Gracie didn't let go when DeLucia tapped furiously and the Ref jumped in but too late, the arm was popped at the elbow. Same with the Karateka who bit Gracie, you can see him trying to tap like crazy but Gracie didn't let go of the choke. On the street, Gracie could have killed both of them if he wanted to. Gracie said all of this in some post interviews to explain why he didn't let go once they tapped. This was an unwritten rule in Vale Tudo in Brazil, although there were no rules, if you used cowardly moves such as biting and eye gouging, don't expect the tap to stop the fight before you're at least severely injured + direct trip to the hospital, but hopefully not maimed for life.
Gracie proved that Ninja deathstrikes and junk don't really work against experienced fighters. And UFC contenders and champions today would annihilate Royce Gracie in his prime. BJJ has long since been a staple of MMA training, and it's not a surprise like it was 20+ years ago.
SandaBoxing
White Belt
All of these strikes that you mentioned were indeed, legal, in the early UFC's. One of dominating techniques was to take control of the back, hook the ankles at the opponent's knees to cause him to flatten out and rain a million down elbows to the back of his head, neck and spine. He'd tap really quick or spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair.
Throat punches are no big deal as a fighter's chin should be down. The chin is an easier and more damaging target than the throat. I'd rather get punched in the throat, which has happened a few times when I was very new, than get punched on the chin. I've been sidekicked in the throat and it didn't even stop the fight, just a sore throat 3 hours later when the adrenaline wore off, that went away the next day. When training, sparring hard and in actual fights, kicks goes towards my groin often. The Muay Thai inside leg kick sometimes strikes the groin and so do knees. A trained fighter is very weary of this and is very used to addressing such strikes, as it's heading in the same direction as an inside leg kick. Same goes with a throat strike, just treat it like any other punch towards the face by not letting it hit you.
SandaBoxing
White Belt
This is very true:
They do this often in Krav Maga where you spar 2 on 1. They do a lot of self defense moves that looks cool in theory, but when it's sparring time, I tear most them apart as an experienced fighter, and I'm not even that good. Now the KM gyms that have ring fighters, those are legit.
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
No, it doesn't. It starts out as an MMA match. And remains one until it ends… as an MMA match. It's set up deliberately to avoid serious injury or death, and such ideas go against the very concept of a sporting contest in the first place.
No, it's really not.
Sure… but that's really not the same thing as an intention to kill.
The question isn't where they stop, it's why… and the reason is that it's not a fight to the death. Why not? Well, there's any number of reasons… ranging from societal rules, to legal realities, to personal morals and ethics (yes, even "bad guys" have morals and ethics)… but the point is, it's not a fight to the death.
No, it isn't. It can be, but it isn't by definition one. It's a restraining hold, a submission hold, an incapacitating one, or, in extreme circumstances, can be a lethal one.
Which is fantasist thinking, realistically.
Yeah… not actually that realistic, when you look at it honestly.
