Why We Love MMA ? Not me...

[Tez3]

Don't confuse me with facts and reason, my mind is already made up!

I look at it like this, I love football. I can't stand Terrell Owens or that Chad Johnson guy. They detract from the sport, are poor sportsman, and despite being highly talented they don't make their team better because of the controversy they bring. MMAist are the same way. Most are great people, but some attract the most publicity and they are not good people. Not good representations of what most MMAist are. IT is the one bad apple ruining it for the bunch.

The difference here is that the NFL punishes the bad apples. Dana White and other promoters (like Pride) don't really punish these guys for being unprofessional or thuggish, in some cases it seems encouraged. That is my ONLY complaint.

So you know of only two promoters and that fixes it for you, I know a dozen in five different countries and they all punish unprofessional and thuggish behavior, we do ourselves, what one promotion does here is backed by the others. Not that we actually have much bad behaviour, incidents are very few and far between but you've made your mind up.
And you wonder why I bang on that UFC doesn't equal MMA!

 

[Xinglu]

So you know of only two promoters and that fixes it for you, I know a dozen in five different countries and they all punish unprofessional and thuggish behavior, we do ourselves, what one promotion does here is backed by the others. Not that we actually have much bad behaviour, incidents are very few and far between but you've made your mind up.
And you wonder why I bang on that UFC doesn't equal MMA!

com'on now, I only listed two (UFC and Pride) because they are the ones it is most prevalent in and in my experience most people in my area are watching. I have personally seen these things happen in TKO, WEC, and Spirit. Those leagues are my entire experience with professional MMA, and that problem has existed in all of them. I like the amateur leagues because such problems are for the most part nonexistent. In fact I have never personally seen this problem in amateur leagues.

Furthermore, I said it was the ONLY problem I have with MMA, and never did I say I disliked MMA. I like MMA a lot, but it has some major PR problems that IMHO can be easily fixed by creating a standard of professionalism and sportsmanship that is higher than boxing or most other sports. Once you do that, most of the complaints about thuggery go away, the complaints about egomaniacs acting like WWE guys go away completely. I hate that Pro MMA has become a spectacle here.

How is that "fixing" it for me? Can I not be a fan, participate in mma, and have a problem with how things are marketed and how the "brass" deal with the "problem children"?

 

[jarrod]

if you don't like MMA, don't watch it. i don't care for the way it's marketed. but it's a mistake to confuse a product with it's marketing.

humanity will never lose it's blood lust because it has helped us survive to this point. so there's no point in complaining about the brutality of MMA. but as a sport it's a pretty safe outlet for what is really a pretty natural human drive.

jf

 

[K831]

if you don't like MMA, don't watch it. i don't care for the way it's marketed. but it's a mistake to confuse a product with it's marketing.

I think your marketing comment is on a fine line. Consistent and pervasive marketing stratagies do certainly indicate something about a company, at the very least. If we are talking about the product being "MMA" in general then I agree, one companies marketing doesn't refelct on the "general product" however, I think the UFC's marketing does reflect on the UFC's MMA product.

humanity will never lose it's blood lust because it has helped us survive to this point. so there's no point in complaining about the brutality of MMA. but as a sport it's a pretty safe outlet for what is really a pretty natural human drive.

jf

I agree. I think just about any sport we do is driven by a competetive "warrior" type of drive.

 

[CoryKS]

As with all things, YMMV. I enjoy it but understand that it may not be everyone's cup of tea.

 

[Marginal]

Judging MMA by that video is like judging TKD by the Olympics.

thats not our MMA that's for sure.

That video consisted of A few knockouts and a bunch of guys standing around. By any standard, it was dreadfully boring. You'd have to know the back story one every single one of those fights to get anything out of that video.

 

[Steve]

Don't confuse me with facts and reason, my mind is already made up!

I look at it like this, I love football. I can't stand Terrell Owens or that Chad Johnson guy. They detract from the sport, are poor sportsman, and despite being highly talented they don't make their team better because of the controversy they bring. MMAist are the same way. Most are great people, but some attract the most publicity and they are not good people. Not good representations of what most MMAist are. IT is the one bad apple ruining it for the bunch.

The difference here is that the NFL punishes the bad apples. Dana White and other promoters (like Pride) don't really punish these guys for being unprofessional or thuggish, in some cases it seems encouraged. That is my ONLY complaint.

I disagree. There is just a different standard. The UFC has actually dropped several fighters for doing things that were dangerous. One example jumps to mind: Renato Sobral held a choke long after the ref stopped the fight. It was intentional and very dangerous. He was very quickly released from his contract.

Conversely, several bad eggs remain in the NFL. Michael Vick even got himself another job.

 

[Xinglu]

I doubt Michael Vick will play again in the NFL, perhaps the UFL. He was and still is being punished by the NFL serving a major suspension which means he is not being paid. Besides, he is not that talented when the eagles get him practicing they will see that they have wasted their time McNabb aging as he is, will always be a better QB.

Your example is not what I'm talking about, I'm referring to the prancing pony acts before and after matches. Sorbral endangered another's life and was justly punished. I'm talking about poor sportsmanship and unprofessional behavior. Not recklessness which I do think MMA has a strong policy and enforcement on.

 

[zDom]

Today, everyone is doing the same thing, so its more of a person vs. person fight. The better man will win that day.

I would say, rather, that:

"The better man that day will win."

 

[Steve]

I doubt Michael Vick will play again in the NFL, perhaps the UFL. He was and still is being punished by the NFL serving a major suspension which means he is not being paid. Besides, he is not that talented when the eagles get him practicing they will see that they have wasted their time McNabb aging as he is, will always be a better QB.

Your example is not what I'm talking about, I'm referring to the prancing pony acts before and after matches. Sorbral endangered another's life and was justly punished. I'm talking about poor sportsmanship and unprofessional behavior. Not recklessness which I do think MMA has a strong policy and enforcement on.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4397938

Michael Vick may or may not get back to where he was in the NFL, but that is neither here nor there. He is a convicted felon and is now back in the NFL on the payroll of a professional team. He's not playing in the UFL or some arena league.

You're muddying things up quite a bit here. First, the prancing pony acts are not just condoned by the NFL, but encouraged. The official denouncement of it is simply lip service. Without Terrell Owens and other "colorful" personalities, the NFL would lose a lot of viewers. Same with every professional sport. Same with the UFC and MMA in general.

Pride and the Japanese aesthetic actually appreciates the spectacle, so their shows tend to be a lot more over the top than US and European shows. But even the UFC quietly endorses individuality and a certain degree of controversy. But the UFC, like most professional sports, draws the line consistently where safety and/or the law is concerned. Sobral knowingly endangered another fighter and was summarily dropped from his contract. Vick, despite being a felon and having committed what many agree is an appalling crime, is back in the NFL.

The point isn't necessarily to call out the NFL. It's to point out to you that the UFC and other MMA organizations DO have standards and hold their fighters to them. While they may not be your standards, they are as consistent and as severe as just about any other pro sport.

Now, if you want to talk about how these standards need to change for ALL professional sports, I'll be right there with you. I do agree that we should raise our expectations. I just don't agree that MMA is any worse than any other sport.

 

[Xinglu]

Now, if you want to talk about how ...ice to the sport, the fighters, and the fans.

 

[Steve]

Well the NFL has fined Chad Johnson and Owens more than any other player in pro sports, it just isn't doing any good. Personally I'd tell them to get out.

What I have quoted above is my general position, excuse me for using the MMA as an example... Pro MMA leagues are far worse than the amateur leagues which just goes to show it is more than just individuality. It is a little fame going to people's head. I detest this "I'm the greatest" attitude that comes from the few but extremely vocal fighters. Ali did it, and I hated that too! Be excited when you win, raise your hands, smile, be happy, cry, whatever. But also cut out the smack talk and dances. If I wanted the WWE, I'd watch the WWE.

Do I watch and enjoy MMA, yes. Am I a fan, yes. Do I want to see the standards raised? YES.

Paint me unreasonable for that, that's fine, but let's not make MMA a sacred cow beyond reproach. It has it's problems that ARE fixable, and to not address such things IMHO is a disservice to the sport, the fighters, and the fans.

I don't think MMA is above reproach and I hope I haven't given you the impression that I believe so.

I will say, though, that being a professional fighter necessarily involves a large ego. Part of the difference between amateurs and pros that you're seeing is the difference between guys who believe that they're at the beginning of an ascent to the top and guys who are just in it to be in it. If you didn't think you could beat the best, you wouldn't put yourself out there. I guarantee you that every one of the guys at the top of any combat sport believe wholeheartedly that they can beat anyone else on a given day. I'd also argue that anyone who believes otherwise has no place in the ring or cage.

This kind of self confidence, whether justified or not, leads to predictable behavior in many people. It can only manifest in so many different ways.

I agree with you that we should have standards. It does bother me when guys like Tito Ortiz and Brock Lesnar make asses of themselves, and bothers me even more that it generates higher ratings... ie, that it works. After every win Thiago Silva struts around, finds a camera and then makes a slicing motion across his neck directly to camera. I think that's about as bad as it gets.

But it's nothing you couldn't find in any other sport.

 

[Xinglu]

I will say, though, that being a professional fighter necessarily involves a large ego. Part of the difference between amateurs and pros that you're seeing is the difference between guys who believe that they're at the beginning of an ascent to the top and guys who are just in it to be in it. If you didn't think you could beat the best, you wouldn't put yourself out there. I guarantee you that every one of the guys at the top of any combat sport believe wholeheartedly that they can beat anyone else on a given day. I'd also argue that anyone who believes otherwise has no place in the ring or cage.

I agree with this, however there is a difference between thinking that you CAN and boastful arrogant behavior. Such confidence doesn't mean you should mock or taunt you opponents or that you should act in any other way other than professional. They are professionals, I want to see them act the part.

I agree with you that we should have standards. It does bother me when guys like Tito Ortiz and Brock Lesnar make asses of themselves, and bothers me even more that it generates higher ratings... ie, that it works. After every win Thiago Silva struts around, finds a camera and then makes a slicing motion across his neck directly to camera. I think that's about as bad as it gets.

This is exactly what I'm talking about (except Pride - might as well be WWE), it has no place.

But it's nothing you couldn't find in any other sport.

So this should justify it? I think such behavior by any pro regardless of the sport should not be tolerated and should not be tolerated by fans or the leagues. It degrades the sport and the fans.

 

[Steve]

I agree with this, however there is a difference between thinking that you CAN and boastful arrogant behavior. Such confidence doesn't mean you should mock or taunt you opponents or that you should act in any other way other than professional. They are professionals, I want to see them act the part.

This is exactly what I'm talking about (except Pride - might as well be WWE), it has no place.

So this should justify it? I think such behavior by any pro regardless of the sport should not be tolerated and should not be tolerated by fans or the leagues. It degrades the sport and the fans.

I think that you and I largely agree on the subject. I don't think we're far off, if at all.

The only real distinction I see is that, while I agree that we should work toward a higher standard, I can completely understand why we are where we are. I don't think that other sports justifies the behavior in MMA. I do believe that it speaks to a larger issue of professional athletes, celebrity in general and the belief by some famous people that they are better than the rest of us. In other words, it's not just MMA.

 

[Xinglu]

I do believe that it speaks to a larger issue of professional athletes, celebrity in general and the belief by some famous people that they are better than the rest of us. In other words, it's not just MMA.

I agree, but I think it speaks to our societal values as a whole. As a society we treat celebrities better than everyone else. So in a way they are correct in thinking they are better then us all. What's worse, is seeing the kids watch this and then thinking that all martial arts should be like this or are like this and that MAist act in that manner.

I have had parents tell me they don't want their kids growing up and being like these guys, and I have to reassure them that we do not teach such things. For as much good as it is doing the MA community it is also giving some really polarizing and negative opinions about it too. Sure they are unfounded opinions, but they are there anyways and those people are like talking to walls. They don't listen, they don't care. There mind is made up, and despite all reason and facts, there will be no changing their mind. I'm seeing so much more of it now. It is a shame.

 

[pmosiun1]

Watching this compilation video of various fights and fighters, I've developed an opinion of the "sport" of MMA. Watch the video first please then read on.

Basically what I saw was a "for real" version of the so called "Professional Wrestling" matches. Guys strutting down a ramp, prancing before a crowd/fans, confetti raining down and all the pomp and showbiz glitz that goes with the faked version of it all.
Granted it's for real, real blood, real pain, real hits/kicks and all that. Yet extraordinarily violent brutal and ... imo... unnecessary feeding of a bloodlust that was best suited for gladiatorial games in ancient Rome.

To my eyes nothing more than professional highly trained street fighting.

I'll pass thank you.

Sorry to offend anyone who is into it like a fan would be.
To me it does away with the essence of Martial Arts and only showcases the brutality of it.
Or maybe I just don't understand what all I'm seeing.

Your thoughts?

To be honest, i think fighting in the cage is the essence of martial art because a lot of so called martial art school does not have the essence of martial art, that is to teach you how to fight.

A lot of these so called martial art claim that MMA fighter does not teach you to defend yourself from more than one opponent and that MMA fighting is just a one on one fight. Lets be honest, there is no such martial art that can teach you to defend from more than one opponent.

Personally, i prefer old school ufc which is fun because you have these different style of martial art and you could easily see which works individually, muay thai, boxing, wrestling, sambo, brazilian jiu jitsu and those that do not really work individually, karate, kung fu and ninjutsu.

 

[MJS]

Regarding the behavior of the MMAists...I did a thread about Brock and his UFC, what was it..100 or 101 antics. Dana runs the UFC, and despite him supposedly lashing into Brock, which of course was done privately, if he really wanted to do something about it, he would, but apparently he doesn't because IMO, that is what draws the crowds, builds the hype, etc., etc.

Then again, some of the pro sports players, ie: baseball, football, basketball, really don't show better behavior, so go figure.

No matter what, in the end, people will love the UFC and hate it. The same will be said for sports teams.

I'll keep watching the UFC. I've been watching it since day one, and I dont see myself stopping now.

 

[pmosiun1]

Regarding the behavior of MMA fighters, it really is not different from other sport where the object of the game is to win. To be honest, i do feel that without guys like Brock, MMA today is very boring. Everyone does the same thing, stand up, clinch and ground. Maybe if full contact weapon is included, it would revive MMA even better but it would only be temporary.

In many ways, MMA could end up like pro wrestling, it is a possibility because we already have a couple of fighters hyping their fights and the fact that the UFC did not really discourage them from not doing so.

 

[blindsage]

To be honest, i think fighting in the cage is the essence of martial art because a lot of so called martial art school does not have the essence of martial art, that is to teach you how to fight.

I don't know about the 'essence', but I agree with the sentiment of this statement.

A lot of these so called martial art claim that MMA fighter does not teach you to defend yourself from more than one opponent and that MMA fighting is just a one on one fight. Lets be honest, there is no such martial art that can teach you to defend from more than one opponent.

A lot of MA claim to do this and fail, but let's be honest, if you think none can, I guess your going down without a fight.

Personally, i prefer old school ufc which is fun because you have these different style of martial art and you could easily see which works individually, muay thai, boxing, wrestling, sambo, brazilian jiu jitsu and those that do not really work individually, karate, kung fu and ninjutsu.

smh, I prefer old school ufc because it creates comedic comments in which people watched and now equate ring fighting with the 'essence' of MA and the end of be all of 'which works'.

 

[blindsage]

Regarding the behavior of MMA fighters, it really is not different from other sport where the object of the game is to win. To be honest, i do feel that without guys like Brock, MMA today is very boring. Everyone does the same thing, stand up, clinch and ground. Maybe if full contact weapon is included, it would revive MMA even better but it would only be temporary.

In many ways, MMA could end up like pro wrestling, it is a possibility because we already have a couple of fighters hyping their fights and the fact that the UFC did not really discourage them from not doing so.

So you actually care more about the show portion that the quality of the fight. Understood.