What if MMA matches were fought to the death?

[drop bear]

Am going to suggest being unconscious during a self defence situation is not a great place to be.

 

[Chris Parker]

And… where do you see that being argued against?

 

[drop bear]

And… where do you see that being argued against?

You are leaning towards mma being not moves of death. But it kind of sort of is. Many people do die from chokes punches throws etc. Now a mma match is not intended to cripple or kill. But it is sort of there in the background regardless.

A ko being a prime example of if it were a fight to the death then there is not much chance given to the unconscious guy. So there are elements where sanda is getting a bit vigorous with the concept.

But he is not all together wrong.

 

[Chris Parker]

You are leaning towards mma being not moves of death.

Right, let's clear this up. Firstly, the "moves" of MMA are specifically done because they are not "moves of death"… so I'm not "leaning towards" anything. Secondly, we're looking at a context (MMA match or training) which is completely removed from the idea of lethality, so yeah, again, it's not a fight to the death in any form at all (other than tragic accidents). Thirdly, the "moves" aren't the reason it's not even in the same category here… but they are the behaviour which exhibits why it's not in the same category.

But it kind of sort of is.

No, it's not. At all.

Many people do die from chokes punches throws etc.

No, they don't. It's incredibly rare to have anyone die from a choke or a throw… and with most punches that kill, it's not the punch that does the damage… and, again, it gets into the realm of "tragic accident". The same applies to most choking or throw-related deaths… the only cases I can think of where someone is deliberately choked to death are more a crime of passion, and it's never anything seen in MMA.

Now a mma match is not intended to cripple or kill.

This we agree on.

But it is sort of there in the background regardless.

And this we don't. Believe me, I do train in methods that are specifically lethal, and the separation between that and MMA training is not dissimilar to the separation between playing pool, and swimming in a pool.

A ko being a prime example of if it were a fight to the death then there is not much chance given to the unconscious guy.

Again, rather besides the point.

So there are elements where sanda is getting a bit vigorous with the concept.

But he is not all together wrong.

Yes, he is.

 

[drop bear]

Right, let's clear this up. Firstly, the "moves" of MMA are specifically done because they are not "moves of death"… so I'm not "leaning towards" anything. Secondly, we're looking at a context (MMA match or training) which is completely removed from the idea of lethality, so yeah, again, it's not a fight to the death in any form at all (other than tragic accidents). Thirdly, the "moves" aren't the reason it's not even in the same category here… but they are the behaviour which exhibits why it's not in the same category.



No, it's not. At all.



No, they don't. It's incredibly rare to have anyone die from a choke or a throw… and with most punches that kill, it's not the punch that does the damage… and, again, it gets into the realm of "tragic accident". The same applies to most choking or throw-related deaths… the only cases I can think of where someone is deliberately choked to death are more a crime of passion, and it's never anything seen in MMA.



This we agree on.



And this we don't. Believe me, I do train in methods that are specifically lethal, and the separation between that and MMA training is not dissimilar to the separation between playing pool, and swimming in a pool.



Again, rather besides the point.



Yes, he is.

So from someone who specifically trains in lethal techniques.

What are these more lethal techniques?

how often does someone die either in training or as a result of training?

Are there examples of people dying from these techniques recorded in the news for example?

Are these techniques different fundamentally to mma techniques?

 

[Chris Parker]

You really want to do it this way? Okay…

So from someone who specifically trains in lethal techniques.

What are these more lethal techniques?

Typically, they involve weapons. But there are some specifically (and deliberately) lethal empty hand methods taught as well, such as severe breaks of various forms, and others. But most of the time, if ya wanna kill someone, grab a weapon.

how often does someone die either in training or as a result of training?

Historically? It's certainly happened. It's happened in non-lethal methods as well. In my classes? No-one. But that's because there are safety measures in place in order to train such things (such as specific equipment, particularly structured drilling methods, and so on).

Are there examples of people dying from these techniques recorded in the news for example?

Recognising that I'm talking about classical weaponry techniques and methods here, not often, no. But you do occasionally get the loon with a "sam-yoo-rye sword" going nuts and hacking some poor unsuspecting person with it, admittedly not with any real technique behind it…

Are these techniques different fundamentally to mma techniques?

Yes. But that's not the important aspect.

 

[drop bear]

You really want to do it this way? Okay…



Typically, they involve weapons. But there are some specifically (and deliberately) lethal empty hand methods taught as well, such as severe breaks of various forms, and others. But most of the time, if ya wanna kill someone, grab a weapon.



Historically? It's certainly happened. It's happened in non-lethal methods as well. In my classes? No-one. But that's because there are safety measures in place in order to train such things (such as specific equipment, particularly structured drilling methods, and so on).



Recognising that I'm talking about classical weaponry techniques and methods here, not often, no. But you do occasionally get the loon with a "sam-yoo-rye sword" going nuts and hacking some poor unsuspecting person with it, admittedly not with any real technique behind it…



Yes. But that's not the important aspect.

We'll otherwise we fall into he said she said.

So I was thinking king more weaponless as in the context of mma death match. Let's not get into gun fu.

Do you have examples of the extra lethality of other systems. And possibly where they killed people?

 

[SandaBoxing]

No, it doesn't. It starts out as an MMA match. And remains one until it ends… as an MMA match. It's set up deliberately to avoid serious injury or death, and such ideas go against the very concept of a sporting contest in the first place.

You need to understand what I said. Throwing a punch, kick, knee or elbow towards someone's head at maximum power and repeatedly is the SAME in an MMA fight as it would be in a fight to the death. The MMA fighter is still throwing everything he has at his opponent. He's not saving anything special that would be more vicious were it a streetfight.

And most streetfights or even violent attacks, are rarely fights to the death. Most are just fights to the KO, just like a sports fight.

Even this right here didn't even result in a KO, let alone death:

A choke hold is a death technique and it works just the same in the cage as it does in the street. Every when someone has you in a choke and you tap; you are being spared your life by that person as 10-20 seconds and you die, while he goes to jail for manslaughter or worse.

 

[K-man]

You just described Ancient Rome and the Gladiatorial Games… and there is your answer

Except that most gladiators were slaves who were granted special privileges or even their freedom if they performed well for their master.

MMA fights already starts out as a fight to the death. It just gets stopped before serious injury or death can occur.

Garbage! No one in sport gets into the ring for a fight to the death, hoping that the ref will save them.

Trying to put your fists, knees, elbows, shin, etc. into someone's face as hard as you can, and repeatedly until he gets KO'ed or TKO'ed is indeed doing the same as trying to kill him in the street, prison, etc. with your limbs. A KO is a KO. From the thousands of streetfight videos available online, most streetfights also ends when there's a KO. Either by the bystanders, the cops or even the guy who won; he stops. Rarely does anyone gets head stomped to death.

And a choke hold that's sunk in is certainly a death move. If an MMA fighter chokes you out in a streetfight with no witnesses around in a dark alley, he now has your life in his hands and the decision that you live or die, is now his. Same if you got KO'ed by him. He can chose to go home and eat a Hot Pocket or stay and headstomp you to death.

As has been stated in other threads the rules take out the more dangerous strikes. And street fights don't stop with the KO. Many times the guy on the ground gets injured from the kicks he receives after he is ko'd.

This is very true:

They do this often in Krav Maga where you spar 2 on 1. They do a lot of self defense moves that looks cool in theory, but when it's sparring time, I tear most them apart as an experienced fighter, and I'm not even that good. Now the KM gyms that have ring fighters, those are legit.

You must be a great fighter or maybe the Krav guys are not doing what they have been taught. Sparring in Krav is not the same as fighting in Krav.

A choke hold is a death technique and it works just the same in the cage as it does in the street. Every when someone has you in a choke and you tap; you are being spared your life by that person as 10-20 seconds and you die, while he goes to jail for manslaughter or worse.

Certainly a choke is a lethal technique. If you apply it on the street here it is now classified as attempted murder or intent to intentionally cause serious injury. In a competition you are not being spared. The implied agreement before entering the ring is that a choke is released as soon as you lose consciousness. To think otherwise is just crazy. It is covered under the rule ... "Engaging in any unsportsmanlike conduct that causes injury to an opponent". I think most people could agree that killing your opponent would be 'unsportsmanlike'.
:asian:

 

[SandaBoxing]

Garbage! No one in sport gets into the ring for a fight to the death, hoping that the ref will save them.

I already explained this part 2x already. Try reading it again, thanks.

As has been stated in other threads the rules take out the more dangerous strikes.

Did you not understand the part where I said that UFC 1-4 had no disqualifying strikes?

And street fights don't stop with the KO. Many times the guy on the ground gets injured from the kicks he receives after he is ko'd.

So you're trying to tell that no street fights ever stopped once someone is KO'ed? What if I showed you 5 videos of such, would you admit to your absurdity?

You must be a great fighter or maybe the Krav guys are not doing what they have been taught. Sparring in Krav is not the same as fighting in Krav.

LOL, yeah...I'm pretty sure they all enjoy getting clowned by someone who's just visiting their gym and beating them down right? Especially the senior level students. Pads don't hit back chief.

Certainly a choke is a lethal technique. If you apply it on the street here it is now classified as attempted murder or intent to intentionally cause serious injury. In a competition you are not being spared. The implied agreement before entering the ring is that a choke is released as soon as you lose consciousness. To think otherwise is just crazy. It is covered under the rule ... "Engaging in any unsportsmanlike conduct that causes injury to an opponent". I think most people could agree that killing your opponent would be 'unsportsmanlike'.
:asian:

You still don't understand. Maybe someone else can explain it to you.

 

[K-man]

I already explained this part 2x already. Try reading it again, thanks.

I did but I must be a little slow. Perhaps you could explain it in simple terms that even I can understand.

Did you not understand the part where I said that UFC 1-4 had no disqualifying strikes?

Yes, but there was still the understanding that the competitors were not trying to kill each other or seriously maim each other. If you had been around a little longer or read some of my earlier posts you would read where I say that the early UFC bouts were the closest to real fighting. However it would have been just a matter of time before someone was killed or permanently maimed. The authorities would have closed it all down if the organisers didn't self regulate.

So you're trying to tell that no street fights ever stopped once someone is KO'ed? What if I showed you 5 videos of such, would you admit to your absurdity?

No. What I said was 'many' fights don't finish with the KO. In many gang related instances the assault can continue for quite some time.

LOL, yeah...I'm pretty sure they all enjoy getting clowned by someone who's just visiting their gym and beating them down right? Especially the senior level students. Pads don't hit back chief.

Well I would really be surprised if that were to happen. No offence but if you tried that in my school I would just call the police. Sparring in KM is totally different to sparring in MMA. In MMA sparring is generally conducted in a less intense way than you would find in the MMA ring. You don't spar using point of the elbow strikes to the head or spine, you don't train using full force forearm strikes to the back of the head and you don't apply armbars with the speed and force you would use in a serious street situation. In Krav we spar with gloves at a much lower intensity and we don't throw in the techniques that could cause serious injury. They are trained in drills and scenarios. It is different methodology. So if you came into my school and started 'downing' people I would ask you to stop and if you didn't I would call the police. If in your wisdom you chose to attack me, well and good. I would have done the right thing. 'Downing people' smacks of competition and we don't compete.

You still don't understand. Maybe someone else can explain it to you.

Well I know I'm slow but a little advice. This forum is for friendly discussion. If you continue in this style of discussion I am sure that you will cop a lot of negative reps. Just a friendly warning.

 

[Chris Parker]

We'll otherwise we fall into he said she said.

So I was thinking king more weaponless as in the context of mma death match. Let's not get into gun fu.

Do you have examples of the extra lethality of other systems. And possibly where they killed people?

You're missing the point. The "lethal" systems are weaponry systems, not unarmed ones. And I'm not talking about "gun fu", I'm talking about the classical arts that I study… but if you want to bring that into it, I can remember a SEAL trainer talking about the hand-to-hand combat methods they have… which are non-lethal. Why? Because they have their weaponry for that.

Asking for examples of systems being used to lethal effect is frankly asking for the wrong thing… your insistence on you-tube as some sort of "proof" completely misses reality on a number of levels… but, to placate you, here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi

Many of my systems are filled with records of lethal engagements, Musashi is just an easy one to reference here as a case study in the type of systems I'm referring to.

You need to understand what I said. Throwing a punch, kick, knee or elbow towards someone's head at maximum power and repeatedly is the SAME in an MMA fight as it would be in a fight to the death. The MMA fighter is still throwing everything he has at his opponent. He's not saving anything special that would be more vicious were it a streetlight.

I do understand what you're saying, and, well, you're wrong. Which is what I said. So… maybe you need to pay a little more attention to my comments, then?

Throwing a punch/elbow/knee etc in an MMA match is NOT the same as in a street engagement. To begin with, it's rare that such things are really thrown at "maximum power… repeatedly"… you'd be gassed in less than a minute, and wouldn't make it through the rest of the fight. Additionally, it opens you up by over-committing, which is far easier to counter… most MMA competitors throw their strikes closer to a boxer… in balance, guarded, without unnecessarily overbalancing, or exposing themselves to counters. That, by necessity, slows things a bit and removes some power… which is what's needed there. Then there's the protective equipment and gloves worn… a different sense of targeting (you're not going to see someone stomping down on a temple in an MMA match, far more potentially lethal than anything you actually see there). Oh, and seriously, quit with the whole "fight to the death" thing… it's tired, and desperately inaccurate… if it was actually a fight to the death, they'd be pulling blades on each other.

So, to sum up; not a fight to the death… not similar to a fight to the death… not even that similar to a "regular" street confrontation… the MMA guy isn't throwing everything (if he wants to actually have any success)… and he is holding back a range of more "vicious" things that might come up in a streetfight.

In other words, no. You're wrong.

And most streetfights or even violent attacks, are rarely fights to the death. Most are just fights to the KO, just like a sports fight.

So you're saying that an MMA match is exactly the same as a streetfight "to the death", but that streetfights aren't to the death? They're to the KO (which is wrong)? And that makes them just like as sports fight (which is also wrong)? Really? Can you see the contradiction in your own comments here?

Even this right here didn't even result in a KO, let alone death:

Yeah, I remember that… not really sure what your point is, though… "MMA are real fights to the death, just like real life, except they stop first… real life fights are fights to the death… except most fights aren't fights to the death, they're fights to the knock out… except this example isn't' a fight to the death or knock out…" Huh?

To be honest, I think you're taking an incredibly narrow view of real world violence… you're simply not accounting for probably 90%+ of the types of violence out there… do you know the difference between social and asocial violence? What an educational beatdown is? A monkey dance? Social rules regarding the application of violence?

Outside of sports match fighting, do you have any real knowledge of violence? That's a serious question, by the way.

A choke hold is a death technique and it works just the same in the cage as it does in the street. Every when someone has you in a choke and you tap; you are being spared your life by that person as 10-20 seconds and you die, while he goes to jail for manslaughter or worse.

There is a huge difference between a potentially lethal technique and a lethal technique… a choke is potentially lethal, sure… but it's not a "death technique". It's a restraint and control/subduing technique. Oh, and spare me the whole "you're being spared your life" garbage, okay? 10-20 seconds isn't long enough, and you're making it out to be something it's just not. Believe me, if you want to kill someone, and you have access to their neck or throat, a choke is rather slow and ineffective compared with a whole range of other things.

 

[Chris Parker]

I already explained this part 2x already. Try reading it again, thanks.

No, you haven't. You've repeated the same flawed and inaccurate ideas twice. It's been read, and seen as the garbage it is.

Did you not understand the part where I said that UFC 1-4 had no disqualifying strikes?

Except that it had a range of banned actions, combined with a range of implied rules (single opponent, no weapons, known environment, known opponent, referee, implied rules of "sportsmanship", and so on). So… no.

So you're trying to tell that no street fights ever stopped once someone is KO'ed? What if I showed you 5 videos of such, would you admit to your absurdity?

And if we showed you 5 clips of fights that didn't stop once someone is knocked out? And five that stopped before? What would any of that prove, other than that there is no single pattern that all violent encounters fit?

Oh, and son? Careful with your choice of words there… K-man is not the one being absurd here.

LOL, yeah...I'm pretty sure they all enjoy getting clowned by someone who's just visiting their gym and beating them down right? Especially the senior level students. Pads don't hit back chief.

Honestly, I'm thinking it's more that you're ignoring the context of what you're doing there, and are just trying to do what you want, regardless of the actual situation… I've seen that a number of times before, frankly. I have no idea where your idea of "pads don't hit back" comes from… unless you were meant to be doing a pad drill when you decided to "clown them"… no one else mentioned pads…

You still don't understand. Maybe someone else can explain it to you.

Perhaps you could try to realise that, well, we've been at this a lot longer than you, and have a much wider view than you to… and you're wrong. But hey, you've had that explained to you a number of times already… and you still don't understand.

 

[RTKDCMB]

This is very true:

They do this often in Krav Maga where you spar 2 on 1. They do a lot of self defense moves that looks cool in theory, but when it's sparring time, I tear most them apart as an experienced fighter, and I'm not even that good. Now the KM gyms that have ring fighters, those are legit.

Basically this is a video of a bunch of idiots with no skill whatsoever brawling in the dirt, and you put this up as an example of what exactly? Quality sparring? Krav Maga? Self defence? If that is what you are basing your fighting prowess on then you need professional help.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So you're trying to tell that no street fights ever stopped once someone is KO'ed? What if I showed you 5 videos of such, would you admit to your absurdity?

That is not what he is saying. I will tell you a story; A few years ago a friend of mine was attacked by 2 guys in his home (a second story flat). They beat the crap out of him and kicked him in the groin. Did it end there? No they then threw him off the balcony. End of fight? No, after throwing him off the balcony they then went down to him and repeatedly stomped on his groin. Does any of that sound like an MMA fight?

 

[RTKDCMB]

MMA fights already starts out as a fight to the death. It just gets stopped before serious injury or death can occur.

Trying to put your fists, knees, elbows, shin, etc. into someone's face as hard as you can, and repeatedly until he gets KO'ed or TKO'ed is indeed doing the same as trying to kill him in the street, prison, etc. with your limbs. A KO is a KO. From the thousands of streetfight videos available online, most streetfights also ends when there's a KO. Either by the bystanders, the cops or even the guy who won; he stops. Rarely does anyone gets head stomped to death.

And a choke hold that's sunk in is certainly a death move. If an MMA fighter chokes you out in a streetfight with no witnesses around in a dark alley, he now has your life in his hands and the decision that you live or die, is now his. Same if you got KO'ed by him. He can chose to go home and eat a Hot Pocket or stay and headstomp you to death.

:idunno:

 

[RTKDCMB]

This is a gruesome question and I apologize for offending anyone, but what if winning was determined by killing you opponent with your bare hands?

Who would voluntarily enter such a thing?

How would that change the sport?

It would make it shorter lived - along with the competitors?

What would a match look like?

Probably more like a TMA in a life or death situation but with both fighters as the attacker.

What would the fighters fight for?

Their lives obviously.

What would be the impact on the MA community assuming that MMA remains wildly popular.

I doubt it would be around long enough to have any serious impact at all.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Attention all Members:
Let us all take a moment to look at the logo at the top of the page. Specifically, where it says "friendly".
And then, perhaps we can dial down the level of hostility a little bit?

Mark A Cochran
Dirty Dog
MartialTalk Senior Moderator

 

[drop bear]

That is not what he is saying. I will tell you a story; A few years ago a friend of mine was attacked by 2 guys in his home (a second story flat). They beat the crap out of him and kicked him in the groin. Did it end there? No they then threw him off the balcony. End of fight? No, after throwing him off the balcony they then went down to him and repeatedly stomped on his groin. Does any of that sound like an MMA fight?

Punch kicked and thrown?

Sorry about your mate by the way.

 

[drop bear]

Except that most gladiators were slaves who were granted special privileges or even their freedom if they performed well for their master.


Garbage! No one in sport gets into the ring for a fight to the death, hoping that the ref will save them.



As has been stated in other threads the rules take out the more dangerous strikes. And street fights don't stop with the KO. Many times the guy on the ground gets injured from the kicks he receives after he is ko'd.



You must be a great fighter or maybe the Krav guys are not doing what they have been taught. Sparring in Krav is not the same as fighting in Krav.


Certainly a choke is a lethal technique. If you apply it on the street here it is now classified as attempted murder or intent to intentionally cause serious injury. In a competition you are not being spared. The implied agreement before entering the ring is that a choke is released as soon as you lose consciousness. To think otherwise is just crazy. It is covered under the rule ... "Engaging in any unsportsmanlike conduct that causes injury to an opponent". I think most people could agree that killing your opponent would be 'unsportsmanlike'.
:asian:

Depends on the krav unfortunately. From a sports perspective there is a lot of" why?"Moments when looking at their training and there really is no need for those moments to be there.

But I don't think we would see anything like krav in a mma fight to the death. Looking at no rules street fights and those lesser rules first ufc and vale tudo. There is not a departure from the basic punching kicking choking module.

There would not even be much departure from the tactic of sitting on top of someone and beating on someone or going for that rear naked.

It would just allow some of the extra stuff like head stomping or spiking people with throws. And no ref.