What does your Neutral Bow look like?

[pete]

No sir. The INDEXED head position most people naturally assume does just the opposite in conjunction with other factors. The position of the chin AND head are part of the major PNF sensors that assist in setting the alignment for the rest of the body to dedicated activity.

this is contrary to anything i've been taught, shown, and physically tested... head erect, spine straight, pelvis tucked, tailbone down, expanding spine, gently lifting top of the head upward - aligning the crown (baihui) and perineum (huiyin)... chin up would close the occiput joint, while forcing the chin to far down would stress the muscles in the neck... so comfortably lower chin to allow the point at the top of the head to lift upward. that point is where a line from ear to ear and another line from spine to nose would intersect.

unless there is a specific application or usage for the chin up position in transition, i respectfully disagree...

 

[pete]

thanks bode, i will try the experiment (i always do) as soon as i can get away from this 'puter and find someone that wants to hit me!

 

[Bode]

this is contrary to anything i've been taught, shown, and physically tested... head erect, spine straight, pelvis tucked, tailbone down, expanding spine, gently lifting top of the head upward - aligning the crown (baihui) and perineum (huiyin)... chin up would close the occiput joint, while forcing the chin to far down would stress the muscles in the neck... so comfortably lower chin to allow the point at the top of the head to lift upward. that point is where a line from ear to ear and another line from spine to nose would intersect.

unless there is a specific application or usage for the chin up position in transition, i respectfully disagree...

It's diffucult on a forum to describe the exact posture or angle of the chin, but I imagine what you describes is much closer than we assume. I believe the best description would be a 90 degree angle of chin to neck. Is that correct Doc?

 

[eyebeams]

When we martial artists talk about stuff like this (what to do, how to do it, etc) (and I'm guilty of it too), it reminds me of a chess story.

In the chess story, a grandmaster has pulled off a brilliant win and someone says "I don't understand it." The grandmaster runs sets up the position and runs through the great combination with much careful explanation. "I understand the combination" says the other guy, "I don't understand how to get in the position to pull it off."

I could be a great fighter if I could just get into those positions where I can pull off that great KO combination everytime.

If it was a response to a specific attack at a specific angle, it would be one of those, "but I could do this," kind of things. But it it a fact that people like to use all manner of movements to hit people in the head, and a fact that keeping your chin low as a general strategy greatly reduces the chance of getting knocked out and suffering other serious injuries.

On a more general note, these recent explanations of fighting postures as "for want of a nail" kinds of things where a finger, toe or a few degrees of angle totally wreck a posture are both impractical in the context of true spontaneous testing and are based on what I consider to be mislaid interpretations of the core principles behind them.

 

[eyebeams]

this is contrary to anything i've been taught, shown, and physically tested... head erect, spine straight, pelvis tucked, tailbone down, expanding spine, gently lifting top of the head upward - aligning the crown (baihui) and perineum (huiyin)... chin up would close the occiput joint, while forcing the chin to far down would stress the muscles in the neck... so comfortably lower chin to allow the point at the top of the head to lift upward. that point is where a line from ear to ear and another line from spine to nose would intersect.

unless there is a specific application or usage for the chin up position in transition, i respectfully disagree...

That's a perfect explanation.

 

[Flying Crane]

I wonder if I could get someone to back up a bit and give a little clarification for those of us who did not study EPAK kenpo from which it seems much of the terminology and concepts come from.

I see a lot of references to "body indexing", and its correctness or incorrectnes. Could someone please explain in plain English what this is referring to?

I have seen references to stances and positions being "anatomically correct", and would like to better understand the concept with regard to martial positioning. I certainly understand what the term means in the general sense, but am not sure I see how it can be strictly applied in the dynamic circumstances of the martial arts. Since a combat situation is dynamic and changes constantly, how do you support any claims that variations in things like stances will make it "anatomically incorrect"? One must contantly move, shift, and make adjustments to respond to a changing situation, so variations are guaranteed to occur during this process.

If a stance is "correct", I assume that means it is most stable. But is this in reference to the direction in which the stance is facing, assuming an attacker is in that position, or does it also consider an attack from a different direction? By claiming a stance is "correct", does this assume maximum stability from all directions, with regard to someone else's ability or inability to push you over? Or have I completely missed the idea and it is something else entirely? I guess I am wondering about someone who might purposely use a less-rooted, higher and narrower stance to increase mobility, for example. Is this somehow "incorrect", and if so, why?

A few threads ago DOC posted an exercise illustrating how having one finger out of place can compromise the stability of a body position. I tried the exercise, and I agree that it showed what was claimed. However, again going back to the notion that combat is dynamic and constantly changing, requiring one to constantly change in the blink of an eye in response, how can one really be concerned with things like the misplacement of a single finger, so long as the finger is not postioned where it could be caught by the attacker and torn off, or otherwise injured. Of course the more one trains correctly, the more naturally and accurately one will use good positioning, stances, etc., but I just wonder if some of these ideas reach a level of theory that may be true, but is impossible to effectively translate into practice. Only a robot can have constant and unwavering accuracy in performing a physical movement, and humans are not robots (i should certainly hope, anyway).

So if anyone involved in this thread could help clarify these things, I would appreciate it.

 

[Doc]

It's diffucult on a forum to describe the exact posture or angle of the chin, but I imagine what you describes is much closer than we assume. I believe the best description would be a 90 degree angle of chin to neck. Is that correct Doc?

Pretty much, but individual anatomical geometric variances in proportions affects the proper posture position. "Chin up" as a descriptor is as opposed to average normal position most people assume, NOT pointing upward. But then when engaged in active resistance in a head-lock scenario, it should be up high. So as I always say, "Everything matters."

Additionally the idea of the chin down as a general strategy to prevent knock outs comes from a blunt force trauma perspective, completely ignorant of other factors of anatomical alignment associated with non-sporting activities. Perhaps when I'm in Texas in a couple weeks we can get a volunteer so I might demontrate the significant differences the oppoing postures present.

 

[eyebeams]

Additionally the idea of the chin down as a general strategy to prevent knock outs comes from a blunt force trauma perspective, completely ignorant of other factors of anatomical alignment associated with non-sporting activities.

Please cite the relevant studies that would contradict evidence gained over decades in multiple combat sports, including how the principle would be nullified outside the limits of said sports. Knockouts are typically caused by violent acceleration, especially rotation. Keeping your chin tucked has repeatedly, demonstrably reduced the opportunity and severity of strikes causing this in the face and jaw without having adverse effect anywhere else. I can't speak for more obscure or mysterious methods, but then again, since they're obscure or mysterious they aren't typical self-defense problems.

 

[Bode]

Keeping your chin tucked has repeatedly, demonstrably reduced the opportunity and severity of strikes causing this in the face and jaw without having adverse effect anywhere else.

I'm sorry, I never read that study. Could you cite said study? I'd appreciate it... (Wish I had time for a longer reply).

 

[eyebeams]

I'm sorry, I never read that study. Could you cite said study? I'd appreciate it... (Wish I had time for a longer reply).

You misread my statement. It's well known from decades of combat sports participation from thousands of athletes that keeping your chin tucked reduces the risks. Any sport where hard head contact is a risk has coaching that advises you to do this. There are many examples of matches where people who don't do this get tagged on the chin and get KO'd.

So for Doc's statement to be significant, it needs to bring evidence to bear that has more legitimacy than the experiences noted by literally thousands of athletes and coaches, from boxers and MMA practitioners to football players, many of whom can be assumed to have more scientific expertise on hand to ensure peak performance than any group of martial artists, anywhere.

Such evidence would not only have to have raw persuasive power, it would have to explain why this heretofore thought silly tactic of keeping the chin is popular and why that popularity among trained amatuer and professional athletes should not be followed in a self-defense context.

And finally, even if one were to appeal to Chinese "martial science," one would have to ask why members of CMA linages and known CMA theory also recommends keeping your chin down.

Advice to keep your chin up is, therefore, an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[Hand Sword]

I would definitely recommend keeping your chin tucked in a real fight.

 

[JamesB]

You misread my statement. It's well known from decades of combat sports participation from thousands of athletes that keeping your chin tucked reduces the risks. Any sport where hard head contact is a risk has coaching that advises you to do this. There are many examples of matches where people who don't do this get tagged on the chin and get KO'd.

bearing in mind that you are referring to sports where each competitor wears huge protective gloves, the reason why there is less likelyhood of being K.O.d might be because the fist can't actually reach the chin (when tucked in)...just because of the size of the gloves. The coaches will advise their competitors to 'tuck in' not because they understand the science so much, but they know that it is more difficult to hit a small target this way.

Take the gloves off, get rid of the referee, and I would suggest the 'chin down' would become a more viable target. Not only that, the chin-down would contribute to an overall lessening of your defensive posture and lead to worse problems than being popped on the chin...I'm quoting Doc here btw.

thoughts anyone?

 

[Hand Sword]

A chin up, means a hit drives to jaw back into the brain stem, ending in a knock out, or at leat extremely dazed. Plus it exposes the throat to a hit, which might mean your death. BTW, the gloves came after boxing was around. The covering up for defense is still legit, gloves on or off.

 

[Shortay]

As far as I understand it, the position of the chin from the perspective Doc is speaking of is nothing to do with the chin as a target in a fight, it is the position of the chin relative to the rest of the body, that will create alignment that gives you a much better chance of successfully defending the attack.

For me as a shorter, smaller female, I cannot rely on great strength or power from my stature as other larger guys can. Doc says "everything matters", well everything really matters for me as my assailants are always likely to be much bigger and stronger than I am.

As James says, it is reasonable that boxers etc tuck their chin in to not have an obviously target sticking out there, but in the techniques we do, I have felt the difference between tucking my chin in and keeping it up. The position of my chin when someone attacks me with a bear hug from the rear can be the difference between them being able to pick me up and not.

I can't speak for the years of other fighters doing other things, I can only speak from my own experiences.

respectfully,

Claire

 

[Doc]

bearing in mind that you are referring to sports where each competitor wears huge protective gloves, the reason why there is less likelyhood of being K.O.d might be because the fist can't actually reach the chin (when tucked in)...just because of the size of the gloves. The coaches will advise their competitors to 'tuck in' not because they understand the science so much, but they know that it is more difficult to hit a small target this way.

Take the gloves off, get rid of the referee, and I would suggest the 'chin down' would become a more viable target. Not only that, the chin-down would contribute to an overall lessening of your defensive posture and lead to worse problems than being popped on the chin...I'm quoting Doc here btw.

thoughts anyone?

You're correct James, and sporting contests do present a different perspective. Interestibly enough, when the 'gloveless' Marcus of Queensbury Rules were the norm in boxing, the "chin up" position was standard posture for boxers. Only when the gloves were installed to protect the hands, which permitted harder BFT strikes did the posture change. Additionally, it is the combination of overall posture in conjunction with the chin position that contributes to the vulnerability or lack thereof. Funny how in the ultimate contact sport of American Football, the first thing an offensive or defensive lineman is taught is to get the chin up from the three point stance at the snap of the ball. My demo with the UCLA football team more than half my age demonstrated why.

 

[Hand Sword]

Football and fighting......Apples and Oranges! But, to stay with it... Funny how, a running back is told to go head down (chin down) and flat back when ramming into someone.

As for the gloveless boxing, Head up until a punch was coming then "turtle" to defend. Plus, it's a natural response when a strike is coming toward the head. The arms come up and the head comes down. Look at a startle response as well. The chin tucks, shoulders come up, with the hands, and you lean forward.

P.S. : the gloves were used to stop the grabbing that was going on, and those early ones were pretty thin too.

 

[Doc]

As far as I understand it, the position of the chin from the perspective Doc is speaking of is nothing to do with the chin as a target in a fight, it is the position of the chin relative to the rest of the body, that will create alignment that gives you a much better chance of successfully defending the attack.

For me as a shorter, smaller female, I cannot rely on great strength or power from my stature as other larger guys can. Doc says "everything matters", well everything really matters for me as my assailants are always likely to be much bigger and stronger than I am.

As James says, it is reasonable that boxers etc tuck their chin in to not have an obviously target sticking out there, but in the techniques we do, I have felt the difference between tucking my chin in and keeping it up. The position of my chin when someone attacks me with a bear hug from the rear can be the difference between them being able to pick me up and not.

I can't speak for the years of other fighters doing other things, I can only speak from my own experiences.

respectfully,

Claire

Very well said sweetie. One of the reasons boxers tuck the chin is because the head is the number one target of attack, and body secondary to open the head once again. In the art you have to defend the entire body without the luxury of 'rules.'

 

[Hand Sword]

In a squared off kickboxing/boxing range, it's still oncoming kicks and punches, (Yes to the head on the street!) rules or not, and an exposed chin and throat will get you into trouble.

 

[eyebeams]

bearing in mind that you are referring to sports where each competitor wears huge protective gloves, the reason why there is less likelyhood of being K.O.d might be because the fist can't actually reach the chin (when tucked in)...just because of the size of the gloves. The coaches will advise their competitors to 'tuck in' not because they understand the science so much, but they know that it is more difficult to hit a small target this way.

Take the gloves off, get rid of the referee, and I would suggest the 'chin down' would become a more viable target. Not only that, the chin-down would contribute to an overall lessening of your defensive posture and lead to worse problems than being popped on the chin...I'm quoting Doc here btw.

thoughts anyone?

My first thought is that if tucking your chin truly compromises your effective posture, then more work needs to be done on your posture. The guideline (suspension from the root to the fontanel) should naturally cause your chin to drop without affecting the spine. In fact, it's better for the spine according to CMA theory.

As for its superiority when it comes to dealing with a shot, you can test it yourself by seeing the difference in the range of lateral rotation between the chin-up and chin-down positions. I suppose it might be a problem if you have trouble looking behind you with minimal head movement, but this is a trainable attribute and, well, you can always put your chin back, can't you? I can also see problems for people abnormally low flexibility in the neck -- but I mean, *abnormally.*

On that topic, this subject really emphasizes the importance of basic physical fitness, especially stabilizing strength and flexibility, as well as the ability to perform movements with a certain degree of isolation and the coordination to issue force from multiple positions. If you do not have the physical prerequisites, you might have problems, but I'm not talking about an athletic level of strength or force against force -- I'm talking about a minimum threshold. Otherwise, you will experience fatigue in successive muscle groups related to, but not ideally suited to, the required task.

(This last is something you experience all the time in office work, sitting in a bad chair or using a mouse.)

I know some of you are raring do go on about "strength not being necessary," so let me say again, this is not athleticism. It's the strength you ought to have if you don't have a physical disability of some kind.

What might also be likely is simply not being used to the proper position. People with poor kinestetic sense tend to look down at their own bodies, as to people assumin reflexive defensive postures. Then you have people taking dominance postures, either through instinct or through training (a typical "attention stance" or a bad "natural stance" is usually taught this way because of militant customs). This just takes practice to overcome -- same as anything.

I am personally not too familiar with using gloves, since I normally only ever use them on a heavy bag. But having been punched in the face and having punched people in the face, I can personally attest to the difference. Without a chin tuck, even a glancing blow lauched with serious power can move your head enough to create momentary confusion. Personal experience and the experience of many, many other people are what inform my opinion.

 

[eyebeams]

Very well said sweetie. One of the reasons boxers tuck the chin is because the head is the number one target of attack, and body secondary to open the head once again. In the art you have to defend the entire body without the luxury of 'rules.'

Actually, people still aim for your head quite a bit. Sportfighting where the entire body is a target hasn't abandoned the method, either.

As for old boxing, you may be confusing staged poses (which were the custom in the era of long exposures) with how fighters actually traded blows. The few old legit (not staged) films I've seen don't have that kind of upright stiffness, nor do modern practitioners (MMA kyokushin and offshoots) who use minimal to no hand protection.