What does your Neutral Bow look like?

[kenpoworks]

Hey Doc,
anatomical proportions
I know that you are refering to stance, but saying as the term is out there, I use "generalised anatomical proportioning" all the time when dealing with self defense scenarios while teaching class, it really does move things along from the mechanical rather rapidly.
Rich

 

[MJS]

Anatomically speaking, I believe I addressed that perspective. Every body has a geometrical proportion that is unique. Persons of disparate height could conceivably have the same shoulder width, therefore using that as a gude would be ludicrous. I also allowed that depth is the least significate and does not affect anatomical proportions relative to stances, as long as you avoid extremes of archatectural support.

Yes, looking back, you did explain this. So, for someone who does not have the background, so to speak, on the human body, how can it be expected that they know any different?

 

[Doc]

Yes, looking back, you did explain this. So, for someone who does not have the background, so to speak, on the human body, how can it be expected that they know any different?

Its kinda like an algorithm. It's doesn't fall out of the sky. In general terms, an algorithm consists of detailed instructions (basics) which results in a predictable end-state (proper function) from a pre-set (knowledge) beginning. Algorithms are only as good as the (teacher) instructions given, however, and the result will be incorrect if the algorithm is not properly defined. (So much for exploring and the self taught)

A good example would be instructions for assembling a model plane. Given the starting set of a number of marked pieces, one can follow the instructions given to result in a predictable end-state: the completed airplane. Misprints in the instructions, or a failure to properly follow a step will result in a faulty end product, so choose your instructions (teachers) wisely cause you ain't gonna figure it out without one.

 

[hongkongfooey]

Diagram A looks like my neutral bow.

 

[Doc]

Diagram A looks like my neutral bow.

Good for you sir.

 

[katsudo_karate]

We do it this way as well I got this from Bill Parsons.

From Bill Parsons:

I give the following to my students when they are first learning the Neutral Bow:

TWELVE POINTS OF THE NEUTRAL BOW
(DIRTY DOZEN)

1. WIDTH -- HEEL/TOE ALIGNMENT

2. DEPTH -- REAR KNEE/FRONT HEEL MEASUREMENT

3. HEIGHT -- THIGHS 30-45 DEGREES

4. FEET 45 DEGREES (1:30 or 10:30) --TORSO SAME DIRECTION

5. 50/50 FRONT-REAR WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION

6. WEIGHT ON BALLS OF THE FEET (NOT THE TOES)

7. TOES IN & KNEES OUT

8. HIPS BENEATH SHOULDERS (BACK STRAIGHT)

9. LEAD ARM 45 DEGREES--SIDE-SIDE & FRONT-REAR -- ELBOW ANCHORED

10. LEAD HAND APPROX. SHOULDER HEIGHT -- LITTLE FINGER FORWARD

11. REAR HAND PALM UP IN FRONT OF SOLAR PLEXUS

12. HEAD UP AND TURNED FORWARD

Salute,

 

[Doc]

TWELVE POINTS OF THE NEUTRAL BOW
(DIRTY DOZEN)

1. WIDTH -- HEEL/TOE ALIGNMENT

Agreed

2. DEPTH -- REAR KNEE/FRONT HEEL MEASUREMENT

Acceptable approximation

3. HEIGHT -- THIGHS 30-45 DEGREES

immaterial and vague

4. FEET 45 DEGREES (1:30 or 10:30) --TORSO SAME DIRECTION

Agreed

5. 50/50 FRONT-REAR WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION

Agreed

6. WEIGHT ON BALLS OF THE FEET (NOT THE TOES)

Emphatically incorrect

7. TOES IN & KNEES OUT

Kinda. The "toe in" is an illusion. feet must be parallel utilizing the PNF sensor outside edge of the feet.

8. HIPS BENEATH SHOULDERS (BACK STRAIGHT)

Agreed

9. LEAD ARM 45 DEGREES--SIDE-SIDE & FRONT-REAR -- ELBOW ANCHORED
10. LEAD HAND APPROX. SHOULDER HEIGHT -- LITTLE FINGER FORWARD

Arm and hand positions are critical to stance efficacy and cannot be defined in this manner. This description is vague at best, and dysfunctional at worse.

11. REAR HAND PALM UP IN FRONT OF SOLAR PLEXUS

Absolutely positively incorrect.

12. HEAD UP AND TURNED FORWARD

Agreed, although I would say "chin up."

 

[dubljay]

My Neutral Bow is only consitant in that it changes to meet the situation. When I would spar with my friend, who was roughly my size, speed and strength, I would keep a fairly text book neutral bow, toe heel line, knee heel line ect. However when I would spar with Johnny, a guy much bigger, taller, faster and stronger, than myself I opted for a slightly deeper stance, just a few inches deeper. I would sacrafice a bit of manuverability to keep from getting knocked over. A bit counter intuitive, but I first tried narrowing my stance for greater manuverability just to find myself knocked flat because Johnny was much faster (not to mention more experienced and skilled) than I was. I soon learned if I was just a little more stable on my feet I could withstand a glancing blow (usually by parrying or very slight movement) and have enough stability to stay on my feet and counter. Granted if I was caught off guard I had no hope in hell of getting out of the way.

 

[JamesB]

After reading everyone's replies to this thread (and we still have a 50-50 split) I would say it is impossible to gauge 'correctness' of a neutral-bow by the questions I posed in the initial survey.

Doc's description especially (of the outside of the foot angled to 45 degrees) means that theoretically both A and C are correct, because I failed to specify how this angle of '45' should be measured - or what it was relative to.

Perhaps a better question would be - how do you measure the 45 - using the inside/outside of the foot?

Would it also be correct to say, that the consensus of the survey so far, is that an ideal neutral-bow would be a horse-stance, angled so that the outside of the feet are parallel and facing 45 degrees...?

I'm finding it quite difficult to actually write out how a N.B. should be measured, I can appreciate why there is ambiguity in the Inifinte Insights and therefore why there is so much apparent variance in people's stances.....however I still think the comparison to 'horse stance' provides the simplest and most accurate description of a neutral-bow.

 

[Ray]

Ever since you have posted this, I have been tempted to make wooden cut-outs of my foot-prints and visually layout the different feet positions. I can't figure out, in my mind, if the feet frame a rectangle or a parallelogram (without 90 degree corner angles); and then does then "relative construction" of the box change if the feet change from A to C.

(I could not tell by drawing boxes on the image you posted).

But, if I do that, I will have no reason to lay awake in bed all night thinking. Or maybe there's a body angle relative to the platform question...

 

[Doc]

My Neutral Bow is only consitant in that it changes to meet the situation. When I would spar with my friend, who was roughly my size, speed and strength, I would keep a fairly text book neutral bow, toe heel line, knee heel line ect. However when I would spar with Johnny, a guy much bigger, taller, faster and stronger, than myself I opted for a slightly deeper stance, just a few inches deeper. I would sacrafice a bit of manuverability to keep from getting knocked over. A bit counter intuitive, but I first tried narrowing my stance for greater manuverability just to find myself knocked flat because Johnny was much faster (not to mention more experienced and skilled) than I was. I soon learned if I was just a little more stable on my feet I could withstand a glancing blow (usually by parrying or very slight movement) and have enough stability to stay on my feet and counter. Granted if I was caught off guard I had no hope in hell of getting out of the way.

If you find it necessary sir to 'adjust' the depth of your stance for stability, than your neutral bow is incorrect.

 

[DavidCC]

Ever since you have posted this, I have been tempted to make wooden cut-outs of my foot-prints and visually layout the different feet positions. I can't figure out, in my mind, if the feet frame a rectangle or a parallelogram (without 90 degree corner angles); and then does then "relative construction" of the box change if the feet change from A to C.

(I could not tell by drawing boxes on the image you posted).

But, if I do that, I will have no reason to lay awake in bed all night thinking. Or maybe there's a body angle relative to the platform question...

I had to work through this too... Imagining my feet as square, I concluded it's a rectangle. My bathroom at home has 1" tiles on the floor, very convenient for this kind of thing.

 

[Doc]

I had to work through this too... Imagining my feet as square, I concluded it's a rectangle. My bathroom at home has 1" tiles on the floor, very convenient for this kind of thing.

Only you would work on a neutral bow in the bathroom. The rest of us would be doing something useful, like reading.

 

[DavidCC]

Only you would work on a neutral bow in the bathroom. The rest of us would be doing something useful, like reading.

My teacher keeps saying I'm a "special case" I wonder if this is what he means.

You never know when you might need a good stance :toilclaw:

I still can't quite "go #1" from a neutral bow yet, but, despite my wife's objections, I continue to pratice. Maybe I should try the forward bow. Or buy a mop.

 

[DavidCC]

OK, sorry, maybe that was a little over the top LOL

 

[pete]

Agreed, although I would say "chin up."

hey doc, wouldn't that compromise the alignment of the spine? pete

 

[Bode]

hey doc, wouldn't that compromise the alignment of the spine? pete

I know this was to Doc, but as his student I couldn't resists answering.

No. Raising your chin will actually help align the spine and fortify the upper platform. A lowered chin tells your body something completely different and will actually curve the spine instead of cause it to remain straight and rigid.

Try this fun example of fortifying:
1) stand in a natural stance. (attention) and have someone punch your chest in the pectoral area. Make sure it's hard enough to feel it, but not enough to damage your muscle.
2) Now raise your chin as high as you can (you'll be looking at the cieling), then lower it to the point where you feel as if your nose is slightly tilted upwards. Now have the same person punch you in the same spot with the same force.

Tell me which one is worse....(here's to hoping I described it well enough).

 

[Doc]

hey doc, wouldn't that compromise the alignment of the spine? pete

No sir. The INDEXED head position most people naturally assume does just the opposite in conjunction with other factors. The position of the chin AND head are part of the major PNF sensors that assist in setting the alignment for the rest of the body to dedicated activity.

 

[eyebeams]

I know this was to Doc, but as his student I couldn't resists answering.

No. Raising your chin will actually help align the spine and fortify the upper platform. A lowered chin tells your body something completely different and will actually curve the spine instead of cause it to remain straight and rigid.

Try this fun example of fortifying:
1) stand in a natural stance. (attention) and have someone punch your chest in the pectoral area. Make sure it's hard enough to feel it, but not enough to damage your muscle.
2) Now raise your chin as high as you can (you'll be looking at the cieling), then lower it to the point where you feel as if your nose is slightly tilted upwards. Now have the same person punch you in the same spot with the same force.

Tell me which one is worse....(here's to hoping I described it well enough).

Number 2 is worse, because people like to other punch people in the face, not the chest. Keeping the chin up minimizes the structural support you get from your neck. On the other hand, there should not be a serious lean forward *at* the neck.

 

[Ray]

Number 2 is worse, because people like to other punch people in the face, not the chest.

When we martial artists talk about stuff like this (what to do, how to do it, etc) (and I'm guilty of it too), it reminds me of a chess story.

In the chess story, a grandmaster has pulled off a brilliant win and someone says "I don't understand it." The grandmaster runs sets up the position and runs through the great combination with much careful explanation. "I understand the combination" says the other guy, "I don't understand how to get in the position to pull it off."

I could be a great fighter if I could just get into those positions where I can pull off that great KO combination everytime.