What does it mean to be well-rounded and why would I want that?

[JP3]

Fan of getting into other styles for a time, learning by immersion, into the other, the new, thing.... then returning to the main style/art whatever. Of course, with the caveat that the main art/style thing just might change over time.

I am Not a fan, personally... meaning for me... of training in two different arts during the same time frame, i.e. doing TKD one day, judo the next, like that. I think you sell the learning of both short, in a physical education sense, as the muscle memory formation is not brought to fruition nearly as quickly in that fashion.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Every system I have ever come across had a failing in one area or more than likely multiple areas. I have never came across a system that addressed everything and was complete. They were after all created by men or women and have the short comings and short sighted nature that accompanies humans. That does not mean that there are some systems that are very broad and are more complete it just means that even those broader systems have weaknesses.

I am a firm believer in learning a system of your choice and becoming proficient in it and then learning from other instructors possibly in different systems to broaden your horizon. That does not mean leaving your initial system of training. Just broadening your horizon and experiencing different perspectives.

 

[Jenna]

Every system I have ever come across had a failing in one area or more than likely multiple areas. I have never came across a system that addressed everything and was complete. They were after all created by men or women and have the short comings and short sighted nature that accompanies humans. That does not mean that there are some systems that are very broad and are more complete it just means that even those broader systems have weaknesses.

I am a firm believer in learning a system of your choice and becoming proficient in it and then learning from other instructors possibly in different systems to broaden your horizon. That does not mean leaving your initial system of training. Just broadening your horizon and experiencing different perspectives.

Brian what do you think to the idea that every art contain a means of addressing shortcomings strictly from within it self?? or is that not possible or likely? thank you x

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Brian what do you think to the idea that every art contain a means of addressing shortcomings strictly from within it self?? or is that not possible or likely? thank you x

Hi Jenna, arts are built typically for a very specific reason or a narrow degree of multiple reasons. While you may be able to take and employ your training in another area that is wasn't specifically developed for it may not always be the optimal solution to your problem.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hi Jenna, arts are built typically for a very specific reason or a narrow degree of multiple reasons. While you may be able to take and employ your training in another area that is wasn't specifically developed for it may not always be the optimal solution to your problem.

The best way to escape is to know the escape.

 

[Jenna]

Hi Jenna, arts are built typically for a very specific reason or a narrow degree of multiple reasons. While you may be able to take and employ your training in another area that is wasn't specifically developed for it may not always be the optimal solution to your problem.

Yes that make sense.. thank you! Is like you cannot make deep fried chicken in a broiler kind of thing yes?

Though there are multiple different solutions to the same problem too you would agree with that??

I think for me in my art some -if not a majority in my experience- of practitioners have either forgotten or misinterpreted the core tenets of the art, or they were never made aware of them in the first place which lead to the situation where they feel compelled to modify their broiler to deep fry the chicken wings.. Fried chicken wings is their compulsion! possibly that is why they do not fit their hakama no more haha.. Now I am hungry

 

[Jenna]

The best way to escape is to know the escape.

what if you know the escape and but cannot escape.. like off of Alcatraz? (because the tourboat has left you there) ha

 

[Flying Crane]

what if you know the escape and but cannot escape.. like off of Alcatraz? (because the tourboat has left you there) ha

Well then you would need to give me a call and I would come and get you. I work just down the road from Alcatraz.

 

[Balrog]

Latecomer to the thread.....

IMNSHO, being a well-rounded martial artist means that I have one martial art that I am working toward expertise in. I also know a little bit about other martial arts, but I am not expert in them. It's like college - I have a major, but I take classes in other things as well to make me more knowledgeable overall.

For example, my primary martial art is Taekwondo. But I do know a little groundfighting from BJJ, some joint manipulation from Aikido, basic stick work from Escrima, etc.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Fan of getting into other styles for a time, learning by immersion, into the other, the new, thing.... then returning to the main style/art whatever. Of course, with the caveat that the main art/style thing just might change over time.

I am Not a fan, personally... meaning for me... of training in two different arts during the same time frame, i.e. doing TKD one day, judo the next, like that. I think you sell the learning of both short, in a physical education sense, as the muscle memory formation is not brought to fruition nearly as quickly in that fashion.

Just my $0.02.

JP3 I agree with your first statement in a sense(bold) if you mean say studying with friends seminar etc. etc. but not if it is I'm going to study 3 months of Aikido then return to say TKD for say 6 months, then try boxing for 4 months and return again to TKD, etc. etc. Personally I believe that will retard your growth in the TKD as a beginner or intermediate student. If you've been studying say TKD for several/many years then I can see doing an art for a few months and going back to the primary. I agree though that by doing this your own art or your own understanding of your primary art will probably change (italics)

Same thing with your 2nd; point I agree as a beginner I would not recommend training two arts at once. As a more seasoned martial artist I believe you can train two or more at the same time. Although unless they are very similar I don't think you will progress in those arts/styles as fast as if you were studying one at a time. As to your example of learning to diverse arts such as Judo and TKD at the same time; as a beginner the muscle memory issue I think is spot on. However if you've been studying one art for a long time and train that on Mon/Wed and feel like training another art Tues/Thurs you'll already have the muscle memory from the primary, so I think then building muscle memory in the 2nd art won't be as much of an issue.

For me I think it all boils down to what is your goal or purpose for doing so (training in multiple arts)? If it is to gain rank or to learn a complete system than I believe your focus should be on one. If it is to compete then whatever makes you the better competitor, no matter how many systems you study. If it is to meet your own personal goal of education and study then do what you want.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Every system I have ever come across had a failing in one area or more than likely multiple areas. I have never came across a system that addressed everything and was complete. They were after all created by men or women and have the short comings and short sighted nature that accompanies humans. That does not mean that there are some systems that are very broad and are more complete it just means that even those broader systems have weaknesses.

I am a firm believer in learning a system of your choice and becoming proficient in it and then learning from other instructors possibly in different systems to broaden your horizon. That does not mean leaving your initial system of training. Just broadening your horizon and experiencing different perspectives.

Brian

I agree with your point about every system having weaknesses in one area or another. I believe martial arts (styles/systems) were developed to meet certain needs during a certain time in a certain culture, taking those systems out of the context they were created in/for, then their weaknesses/short coming would show up. However in their setting they might reign supreme. This is why over time I think as people get more exposure to multiple arts they change their primary arts (if they are in the position to do so) to reflect the changing needs.

I think back to an example that I heard from Dan Inosanto 30 odd years ago at a seminar, where he was saying about how in an open area the TKD kicker had an advantage, whereas in a phone booth (that dates the example doesn't it?) then the person who is use to fighting in close has the advantage since the TKD kicks are negated. However even in the open where the TKD kicker might have an advantage a person with a weapon could negate the kicking advantage. Or what if it's raining and it heavy mud then the silat guy might have the advantage over the high kicker and so on. In a pool the person who played water polo might reign supreme.

I also agree in learning from other instructors in similar arts and systems. I my own experience I have learned from GM Remy Presas Modern Arnis and it is he who taught me the core art, and really the person I received the most instruction from. However since his passing I learned from several of the 1st generation students of his such as; Datu Hartman, Datu Dieter Knuttel, SM Dan Anderson, the MoTTs, and others and they all have given me different insight in Modern Arnis and the FMAs as a whole. I believe that helps me to be a more well rounded Modern Arnis player, and as a whole a more well rounded martial artists as well.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Hi Jenna, arts are built typically for a very specific reason or a narrow degree of multiple reasons. While you may be able to take and employ your training in another area that is wasn't specifically developed for it may not always be the optimal solution to your problem.

Brian

I respectively disagree (referring to the bolded part of your comment), I think arts can be more open ended then we think. Motion is motion and everyone's view of the purpose of say the motion of a drill can be different and you can find that motion across multiple systems that were developed independently of each other. For instance while the high forehand, low back hand, high back hand motion of say a double stick Sinawali pattern is used in one system as a warm up drill, in another system it might be used as an an entry or a way to bridge a gap between two people, in another system it might be used to teach joint manipulation or empty hand skills etc.etc. Take the same motion and it can be a inward block, downward block, high block of TKD.

Another area (of growth and understanding) for me has been adapting the more traditional weapons (sai, tonfa, kama) to techniques, concepts and drills from the FMAs double stick material. Granted each weapon has it's own unique characteristics but there is some crossover in training drills and use between them.

As practitioners become more exposed to multiple systems they might start to see the crossover between them, and as the arts change (as they become more global in a sense, instead of just Japanese, Korean, etc. etc.) I think people start to see this more and more.

Latecomer to the thread.....

IMNSHO, being a well-rounded martial artist means that I have one martial art that I am working toward expertise in. I also know a little bit about other martial arts, but I am not expert in them. It's like college - I have a major, but I take classes in other things as well to make me more knowledgeable overall.

For example, my primary martial art is Taekwondo. But I do know a little groundfighting from BJJ, some joint manipulation from Aikido, basic stick work from Escrima, etc.

Balrog

In college as in the martial arts it's also possible to have multiple degrees in different fields of studies, or major and minor arts. I mention this because even after becoming an expert in one art, it doesn't mean that you to settle on only know a "little" about other arts. How far you want to go in an art or multiple arts is totally up to the individual practitioner.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hi Jenna,

Yes I would agree that quite often there are multiple solutions to the same problem. However, there is typically an option that is the most efficient. Often other options lead to further problems.

I also looking at Mark's post would agree that the deeper you train in systems the more cross referencing you see. Yet, even with cross referencing that does not mean that a technique or skill set is the optimal for any given situation. Just that it may work in an area it wasn't specifically developed for. May being the key word there.

Motion is motion but.... there is good motion, bad motion, motion intended for a specific purpose and motion used erroneously at the wrong time and more. The point is to utilize effective motion at the right time in the right circumstance so that you are successful. There have been several systems in recent years that have tried to take their specific skill set and apply it in another area that it was not intended for. They in turn created some thing that didn't really work as well as they thought it would or in turn marketed it to work. Experts in the area that they marketed it in could easily see the mistakes, flaws and outright poor skill sets that they had developed. So while motion is motion not all motion is the same or created equal!

 

[drop bear]

Brian what do you think to the idea that every art contain a means of addressing shortcomings strictly from within it self?? or is that not possible or likely? thank you x

You can gloss over them so peoples are less likely to notice. But you don't address them.

So if I can't punch but can kick. I can spend my time avoiding punching exchanges.

But I will never learn to punch that way.

Notice that MMA cross trains when it doesn't technically have to. Everyone could just train MMA. But my belief is if you do different styles you are forced to engage in the mechanics of that style. You can't cheat as easily.

 

[Jenna]

You can gloss over them so peoples are less likely to notice. But you don't address them.

So if I can't punch but can kick. I can spend my time avoiding punching exchanges.

But I will never learn to punch that way.

Why though is there a necessity to learn to punch at all if kicking is your strength or preference?

Like for the sake of argument, say you were strongest at kicking or it were a preference or even a physical necessity for you, punching was almost like against your dogma.. Not an actual thing just like for sake of argument yes? Then what would you see as the issue with capitalising on your kicking, train the living crap out of kicking against every foreseeable type of attack to the extent that punching would offer almost no additional benefit? Thank you

 

[drop bear]

Why though is there a necessity to learn to punch at all if kicking is your strength or preference?

Like for the sake of argument, say you were strongest at kicking or it were a preference or even a physical necessity for you, punching was almost like against your dogma.. Not an actual thing just like for sake of argument yes? Then what would you see as the issue with capitalising on your kicking, train the living crap out of kicking against every foreseeable type of attack to the extent that punching would offer almost no additional benefit? Thank you

Yeah. You can train how you want. If you dont want to ever punch that is fine.

 

[punisher73]

First, I think it really depends on "why" a person is really studying the arts. If it is to learn and master a system of martial arts then they need to dedicate themselves to that one art. If it is just to be able to "handle themselves" in a street confrontation (again, VERY nebulous on what that means. Criminal assault? Drunk guy at the bar?) then that is also a very different animal.

BUT, I agree with Bill in regards to his style of Isshin-ryu (and the other traditional karate styles). Historically, the okinawans all 'trained' and learned a system of sport grappling call "tegumi". They would have been familiar with many of the holds and takedowns of a grappling art. So, what the traditional karate styles have in them is "ground fighting". It is how to fight from the ground with a standing attacker or how to attack a person that is on the ground, and also ground avoidance and ground escape. Their goal was to never "grapple" on the ground that we are most familiar with. If you look at the "Bubishi" you will see many grappling applications, including things like the single leg takedown that we see in wrestling.

So, this is where the "well rounded" part, to me, comes in when we look at our own art. We look to the most familliar and common attacks (Patrick McCarthy has a great tool called the "Habitual Acts of Violence") and then find the solutions to those in our katas/forms. We then start to drill those things with increasing resistance until we "own" the move. I think something that can speed up the process is "cross referencing". Looking at applications from other arts that are similiar to the movements in your own art to get other ideas of applications and potentials from the movement.

I remember reading an article by Charles Goodin (Hawaiian Karate Museum) when talking about applications and he suggested looking into the self-defense techniques of American Kenpo to find applications to the karate katas. You don't need to give up your art to go learn kenpo, but seeing what the movements look like and comparing them to your katas, can give you ideas and insights in deepening your study.

Lastly, I do think it is important to have knowledge of other arts to understand their strategies and attacks to know how to best counter them. To paraphrase Sun Tzu, "if you know only yourself you will win half the time, if you know yourself and your enemy you will win all of the time".

 

[Jenna]

Yeah. You can train how you want. If you dont want to ever punch that is fine.

I cannot see videos from this unfortunately and but I was wondering how would you rate your self in terms of pragmatism? defensively I mean

and how much of a part does pragmatism play in being well-rounded

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I said in the real world, in the real world there arnt a load of trained grapplers roaming round looking to attack you, there are however is,a lot of fat blokes with big,arms and bigger,waist lines, who will try and grapple you based on the fact they,weigh 80lbs more than you and if they can pin you with their weight your more or less stuck

Interestingly, in reviewing videos of attacks, I don't notice a preponderance of overweight people going for grapple more than skinny people. Some people punch (well or badly) and some people grapple (well or badly), and I've not seen a heavy link to body type in either case. I'll need to look for it specifically next time I'm doing that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To expand on this a little bit...

Even if you have no interest in ever seriously taking up a second art, it's worthwhile to occasionally explore different systems just to give you additional perspective into your primary martial art. There's an old saying that "a fish doesn't know it's wet." When you've only ever trained one system, it's common to have a lot of unquestioned assumptions about how things are done, just because you've never seen them done differently.

When you explore a different system, you may encounter different body mechanics, tactics, and training methods. Your first goal should be to figure out why they do it that way. Once you've started to understand this different approach and the advantages it gives, you can ask yourself why it's done differently in your primary art. Once you see more options for how something can be done, you are in a better place to evaluate the advantages and disadvantages of each approach. That can lead you into a whole journey of discovery into how the different components of your art (principles, mechanics, tactics, techniques, and training methods) fit together.

Perhaps you study art A and spend a little time exchanging knowledge with an expert in art B. You find that art B has a way of throwing a punch which is more powerful than what you have learned in art A. So why doesn't art A use this punching method? Maybe it's because that method leaves you more open for a certain type of counter. Why doesn't art B worry about that counter? Because they have a certain game plan for when that counter comes? Why doesn't art A use that game plan? Because art A is built around a certain set of tactical priorities for a certain context and that game plan would violate those priorities. Once you see that art B is built around a different set of priorities for a different context, you begin to become more aware of the foundations your own art is built around. You are the fish who is starting to understand water.

At other times the new art might use some of the same principles as your own, but they are presented or practiced or conceptualized differently. Sometimes seeing that different explanation can give you a breakthrough in understanding how those principles are applied in your primary art.

Another possibility is that exploring a new system will make you aware of the limitations of your primary art. That doesn't necessarily mean your primary art is bad or that it needs to be changed or your need to study additional arts to "round yourself out." Every system has limits. Every combination of systems has limits. Every training method has limits. Every person has limits. That's reality. This being the case, in the words of Harry Callahan, "a man's got to know his limitations." When you know what you don't know, then you can adjust your game plan accordingly. When you think your system gives you something it doesn't ... let's just say that the Dunning-Kruger effect can lead to painful outcomes.

This, very much this.

For those of us who have a distinct primary art, there's a lot of value in wandering into foreign territory. Much of what I understand about NGA, for instance, is based upon what I've learned or experience in and from other arts. My prior experience in Karate and Judo definitely informed my early learning in NGA. My exploration in wrestling, MMA, BJJ, FMA/small-circle Jujitsu (a blended approach), Aikido, and a bunch of other bits and pieces has definitely colored my understanding and approach.

Sometimes I find things I consider weaknesses in the approach I learned (not sure if it's what I was meant to learn - might be my fault I learned it that way). Sometimes I discover strengths I didn't understand and wasn't exploiting. Sometimes I just find out what I, personally, suck at. Always I learn something that enhances both my personal arsenal and my understanding and ability to teach NGA.