What does it mean to be well-rounded and why would I want that?

[Touch Of Death]

what are you taking issue with? The fact that people with low mobility but high body weight try and use their weight against you and grapple rather than use speed and movement

No, it was the assumption all grapplers are fat. Grapplers are just people that don't like to trade punches, and lots of people fat or waify, want to know those tricks, and they really work.

 

[jobo]

No, it was the assumption all grapplers are fat. Grapplers are just people that don't like to trade punches, and lots of people fat or waify, want to know those tricks, and they really work.

I said in the real world, in the real world there arnt a load of trained grapplers roaming round looking to attack you, there are however is,a lot of fat blokes with big,arms and bigger,waist lines, who will try and grapple you based on the fact they,weigh 80lbs more than you and if they can pin you with their weight your more or less stuck

 

[Steve]

On the contrary, I would suggest that every single style in existence is "incomplete" in some way. That's because even the best systems can only competently address the areas which the founders and practitioners who developed the system have had significant experience in. The world of violence is too large for anyone, even violence professionals or martial arts masters, to be familiar with all of it.

A 17th-century swordsman preparing for a duel. A 16 year old girl fending off a date rapist. A bouncer ejecting a rowdy drunk. A professional fighter preparing for a match with a master grappler. A senior citizen using a knife to defend against home invaders. An orderly working to restrain a mentally ill patient without injuring him. People fighting in the snow while bundled in thick coats. People fighting in the jungle. People fighting on boats. The list goes on and on. Many principles, tactics, techniques and attributes can carry over from one setting to another. Many do not. No one has the answers for everything.

This is close to the crux of it for me. In my opinion, being well rounded isn't about techniques or styles or systems. It's about context. A cop is familiar with one context of violence and the application of technique within that context. A cop who also competes in martial arts tournaments is familiar with another element (and the more varied the competition venues, the better). A cop, who is a combat veteran, who competes, is even more well rounded.

I would also distinguish between an instance of violence and a context for violence. For example, I would say that a 16 year old girl fending off a date rapist is an instance of violence. Being a female high school or college student who deals with this type of violence or potential violence is a context.

And conversely, if you don't compete, don't work as a cop or a bouncer, and are not otherwise applying your skills in a context, you are not well rounded, regardless of how well trained you might be. If all you do is train in a martial art, but have no well developed experience within a context for violence, regardless of how much you understand about that system, you aren't going to be well rounded. That goes for BJJ, MMA, or Tibetan White Crane.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Would you let a doctor operate on you if they told you they did washing machine repair on the side.

I actually had a rather competent orthopedist that did electronic repair on the side...but he started out as an electrical engineer and thought he could be a better doctor than the one he had so he then became a doctor

 

[Charlemagne]

If all you do is train in a martial art, but have no well developed experience within a context for violence, regardless of how much you understand about that system, you aren't going to be well rounded. That goes for BJJ, MMA, or Tibetan White Crane.

Agreed, to a point. Diversity of experience can certainly impact things. You are 100% spot on there. However, there are good arguments for diversity of skill sets and the contextual framework that studying arts with differing skills based upon there reason for existing, gives you.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

To understand what you do. It is worthwhile understanding more than what you do.

To expand on this a little bit...

Even if you have no interest in ever seriously taking up a second art, it's worthwhile to occasionally explore different systems just to give you additional perspective into your primary martial art. There's an old saying that "a fish doesn't know it's wet." When you've only ever trained one system, it's common to have a lot of unquestioned assumptions about how things are done, just because you've never seen them done differently.

When you explore a different system, you may encounter different body mechanics, tactics, and training methods. Your first goal should be to figure out why they do it that way. Once you've started to understand this different approach and the advantages it gives, you can ask yourself why it's done differently in your primary art. Once you see more options for how something can be done, you are in a better place to evaluate the advantages and disadvantages of each approach. That can lead you into a whole journey of discovery into how the different components of your art (principles, mechanics, tactics, techniques, and training methods) fit together.

Perhaps you study art A and spend a little time exchanging knowledge with an expert in art B. You find that art B has a way of throwing a punch which is more powerful than what you have learned in art A. So why doesn't art A use this punching method? Maybe it's because that method leaves you more open for a certain type of counter. Why doesn't art B worry about that counter? Because they have a certain game plan for when that counter comes? Why doesn't art A use that game plan? Because art A is built around a certain set of tactical priorities for a certain context and that game plan would violate those priorities. Once you see that art B is built around a different set of priorities for a different context, you begin to become more aware of the foundations your own art is built around. You are the fish who is starting to understand water.

At other times the new art might use some of the same principles as your own, but they are presented or practiced or conceptualized differently. Sometimes seeing that different explanation can give you a breakthrough in understanding how those principles are applied in your primary art.

Another possibility is that exploring a new system will make you aware of the limitations of your primary art. That doesn't necessarily mean your primary art is bad or that it needs to be changed or your need to study additional arts to "round yourself out." Every system has limits. Every combination of systems has limits. Every training method has limits. Every person has limits. That's reality. This being the case, in the words of Harry Callahan, "a man's got to know his limitations." When you know what you don't know, then you can adjust your game plan accordingly. When you think your system gives you something it doesn't ... let's just say that the Dunning-Kruger effect can lead to painful outcomes.

 

[Steve]

Would you let a doctor operate on you if they told you they did washing machine repair on the side.

One has nothing to do with the other. But I do think you touch on a great point, which is that well-rounded is the opposite of specialized, and there is value in both. I wouldn't want a general practitioner to perform heart surgery. I would want a specialist. However, if I could only pick one doctor for everything, I'd probably want the doctor who is the most well-rounded. He/she might not be the best choice if I ever need open heart surgery, but for aches, pains, stitches, and overall wellness, I'd go with an experienced family doctor. Heck, he might even be able to help me with my washing machine!

Agreed, to a point. Diversity of experience can certainly impact things. You are 100% spot on there. However, there are good arguments for diversity of skill sets and the contextual framework that studying arts with differing skills based upon there reason for existing, gives you.

Fair enough. It really depends on the criteria for defining "well rounded." I think it's a fair point to acknowledge that my previous post was one of several ways to view the idea. You can identify any framework and then define well rounded or specialized within that. In BJJ, a guy who has a good top game, a solid guard, strong submissions and is competent from every position is well rounded. But if they have terrible striking and poor wrestling, they would be a specialist in MMA. A guy who is really strong as a grappler and striker may be considered well rounded within MMA, but would be a specialist outside of MMA.

I do stand by my point, though, that training is the means to an end. Whatever the "end" is, that's the limit of your experience. So, if you only do forms, that's the limit. If you spar, that's the limit. If you compete, use the skills in your profession, that's the limit.

 

[Steve]

To expand on this a little bit...

Even if you have no interest in ever seriously taking up a second art, it's worthwhile to occasionally explore different systems just to give you additional perspective into your primary martial art. There's an old saying that "a fish doesn't know it's wet." When you've only ever trained one system, it's common to have a lot of unquestioned assumptions about how things are done, just because you've never seen them done differently.

When you explore a different system, you may encounter different body mechanics, tactics, and training methods. Your first goal should be to figure out why they do it that way. Once you've started to understand this different approach and the advantages it gives, you can ask yourself why it's done differently in your primary art. Once you see more options for how something can be done, you are in a better place to evaluate the advantages and disadvantages of each approach. That can lead you into a whole journey of discovery into how the different components of your art (principles, mechanics, tactics, techniques, and training methods) fit together.

Perhaps you study art A and spend a little time exchanging knowledge with an expert in art B. You find that art B has a way of throwing a punch which is more powerful than what you have learned in art A. So why doesn't art A use this punching method? Maybe it's because that method leaves you more open for a certain type of counter. Why doesn't art B worry about that counter? Because they have a certain game plan for when that counter comes? Why doesn't art A use that game plan? Because art A is built around a certain set of tactical priorities for a certain context and that game plan would violate those priorities. Once you see that art B is built around a different set of priorities for a different context, you begin to become more aware of the foundations your own art is built around. You are the fish who is starting to understand water.

At other times the new art might use some of the same principles as your own, but they are presented or practiced or conceptualized differently. Sometimes seeing that different explanation can give you a breakthrough in understanding how those principles are applied in your primary art.

Another possibility is that exploring a new system will make you aware of the limitations of your primary art. That doesn't necessarily mean your primary art is bad or that it needs to be changed or your need to study additional arts to "round yourself out." Every system has limits. Every combination of systems has limits. Every training method has limits. Every person has limits. That's reality. This being the case, in the words of Harry Callahan, "a man's got to know his limitations." When you know what you don't know, then you can adjust your game plan accordingly. When you think your system gives you something it doesn't ... let's just say that the Dunning-Kruger effect can lead to painful outcomes.

I agree with everything you wrote, but it brought a question to mind. Does "knowing about" or occasional exposure to things (as opposed to committed study) really make one more well rounded? I mean, reading this forum for years has brought us all to at least a moderate degree of intellectual familiarity with a lot of styles, training models and perspectives. But I wouldn't go so far as to say we're more well rounded... well, maybe intellectually more well rounded.

Said a little differently, isn't the danger of dunning-kruger most present when you think you know more than you do. Occasionally exploring another art may give you just enough information to create the unconscious incompetence you're trying to avoid.

 

[Charlemagne]

To expand on this a little bit...

Even if you have no interest in ever seriously taking up a second art, it's worthwhile to occasionally explore different systems just to give you additional perspective into your primary martial art. There's an old saying that "a fish doesn't know it's wet." When you've only ever trained one system, it's common to have a lot of unquestioned assumptions about how things are done, just because you've never seen them done differently.

When you explore a different system, you may encounter different body mechanics, tactics, and training methods. Your first goal should be to figure out why they do it that way. Once you've started to understand this different approach and the advantages it gives, you can ask yourself why it's done differently in your primary art. Once you see more options for how something can be done, you are in a better place to evaluate the advantages and disadvantages of each approach. That can lead you into a whole journey of discovery into how the different components of your art (principles, mechanics, tactics, techniques, and training methods) fit together.

Perhaps you study art A and spend a little time exchanging knowledge with an expert in art B. You find that art B has a way of throwing a punch which is more powerful than what you have learned in art A. So why doesn't art A use this punching method? Maybe it's because that method leaves you more open for a certain type of counter. Why doesn't art B worry about that counter? Because they have a certain game plan for when that counter comes? Why doesn't art A use that game plan? Because art A is built around a certain set of tactical priorities for a certain context and that game plan would violate those priorities. Once you see that art B is built around a different set of priorities for a different context, you begin to become more aware of the foundations your own art is built around. You are the fish who is starting to understand water.

At other times the new art might use some of the same principles as your own, but they are presented or practiced or conceptualized differently. Sometimes seeing that different explanation can give you a breakthrough in understanding how those principles are applied in your primary art.

Another possibility is that exploring a new system will make you aware of the limitations of your primary art. That doesn't necessarily mean your primary art is bad or that it needs to be changed or your need to study additional arts to "round yourself out." Every system has limits. Every combination of systems has limits. Every training method has limits. Every person has limits. That's reality. This being the case, in the words of Harry Callahan, "a man's got to know his limitations." When you know what you don't know, then you can adjust your game plan accordingly. When you think your system gives you something it doesn't ... let's just say that the Dunning-Kruger effect can lead to painful outcomes.

Exactly right.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I said in the real world, in the real world there arnt a load of trained grapplers roaming round looking to attack you, there are however is,a lot of fat blokes with big,arms and bigger,waist lines, who will try and grapple you based on the fact they,weigh 80lbs more than you and if they can pin you with their weight your more or less stuck

Well, no, that's not what you said. What you said was this:

But back in the real world grapplers are fat blokes who cant move fast and try to use their weight against you.

There's a difference between "unskilled, untrained assailants who are big and slow may try to grab you" and "grapplers are fat blokes who cant move fast." The first might be sometimes true. The second is very rarely true. Being fat and slow is a serious disadvantage in grappling, which is why most wrestlers, judoka, jiu-jiteiros, samboists, etc are in excellent shape.

No, most wrestlers, judoka, jiu-jiteiros, and samboists aren't walking the streets looking to mug people. Neither are most boxers, karateka, savateurs, etc. Your original post didn't say anything about anyone wandering around looking to attack random people. You said "real world". In the real world, a grappler is someone who trains in a grappling system.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I agree with everything you wrote, but it brought a question to mind. Does "knowing about" or occasional exposure to things (as opposed to committed study) really make one more well rounded? I mean, reading this forum for years has brought us all to at least a moderate degree of intellectual familiarity with a lot of styles, training models and perspectives. But I wouldn't go so far as to say we're more well rounded... well, maybe intellectually more well rounded.

Said a little differently, isn't the danger of dunning-kruger most present when you think you know more than you do. Occasionally exploring another art may give you just enough information to create the unconscious incompetence you're trying to avoid.

That's why I think that occasional exploration of other arts is mostly useful for giving insights into your primary art (in the ways I mentioned) rather than making you in any way "well-rounded." If you start thinking you are knowledgeable about a system because you took a couple of weekend seminars, then you are indeed heading into D-K territory.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I said in the real world, in the real world there arnt a load of trained grapplers roaming round looking to attack you, there are however is,a lot of fat blokes with big,arms and bigger,waist lines, who will try and grapple you based on the fact they,weigh 80lbs more than you and if they can pin you with their weight your more or less stuck

There are a lot more wrestlers out there, than you think.

 

[Steve]

That's why I think that occasional exploration of other arts is mostly useful for giving insights into your primary art (in the ways I mentioned) rather than making you in any way "well-rounded." If you start thinking you are knowledgeable about a system because you took a couple of weekend seminars, then you are indeed heading into D-K territory.

Thanks for the clarification. I understand now and agree. I think there's value in knowing where your holes or skill gaps are, even if you have no desire or intent to address them. Just being aware of them is helpful.

Taking it a little further, a warning light goes off when folks say their art addresses every need. It strikes me as the opposite of the above.

 

[Charlemagne]

There are a lot more wrestlers out there, than you think.

And even more former wrestlers. The 45 year old dude who competed in wrestling from junior high to his senior year of high school still knows more than enough to put a hurting on someone on the ground who doesn't train that on a regular basis. He might be out of shape now, and even fat, but if the fight is over in a minute that won't matter very much. Even if the fight lasts longer, the former wrestler knows how to hold a position using less than all of their strength, allowing them to recover during the fight, particularly against someone who is unskilled on the ground.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Wow, those guys are great! I need to keep training hard in my system so that I can learn how we would deal with situation X, or technique Y, and maybe I will find out how our system does it and then I can show my friends a thing or two!"

This is how I think of the system that I train in. Instead of looking outside of my system, I try to find the answers within the system. However, I don't think every school can do this. If the teacher trained mostly on striking the other areas of that system are going to be lacking. If the teacher doesn't train for self-defense purposes then there will be big gaps, and those gaps will also be numerous.

But with that said, if the person is at an advanced enough level then they should be seeking information outside of their school but within the same system. That student should also be trying to analyze techniques in order to understand a technique without having to have the teacher always give the answer. Most of the people that I know who want to be "well rounded" tend to be those who are just starting out or are still in the beginner level of martial arts.

 

[Flying Crane]

And even more former wrestlers. The 45 year old dude who competed in wrestling from junior high to his senior year of high school still knows more than enough to put a hurting on someone on the ground who doesn't train that on a regular basis. He might be out of shape now, and even fat, but if the fight is over in a minute that won't matter very much. Even if the fight lasts longer, the former wrestler knows how to hold a position using less than all of their strength, allowing them to recover during the fight, particularly against someone who is unskilled on the ground.

These are easy statements to make and they can go both ways.

That former college boxer who is now fat and out of shape probably can still land a good left hook and lay out that former wrestler before he gets close enough to grapple.

Statements like that are easy to make. But as I like to say, it depends on a lot of things, including the individual people involved. Nothing is guaranteed.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Thanks for the clarification. I understand now and agree. I think there's value in knowing where your holes or skill gaps are, even if you have no desire or intent to address them. Just being aware of them is helpful.

Taking it a little further, a warning light goes off when folks say their art addresses every need. It strikes me as the opposite of the above.

I think the Anti-Grappling / Anti Grappling package, that is Kenpo, does address every need, until it doesn't. Higher skilled opponents require a little more attention to detail, which means you should pay attention to what they are into.

 

[jobo]

There are a lot more wrestlers out there, than you think.

not in the uk there aren't, its a,Very minority sport, its easier to find bog snorkelers' than wrestlers'
but even if there was quite a few, im still more likely to get in a fight with an over weight bloke with a,shaved head and big bycepts, they are every where and all seemingly have an attitude as big as there waste line

 

[Charlemagne]

That former college boxer who is now fat and out of shape probably can still land a good left hook and lay out that former wrestler before he gets close enough to grapple.

I was going with the analogy of the OP, but yes, that former boxer can still likely do damage as well. No argument there.

 

[Steve]

I was going with the analogy of the OP, but yes, that former boxer can still likely do damage as well. No argument there.

Yeah dobt think the two are mutually exclusive.