Well, What's Next?

[Cyriacus]

I'll be happy to share my impressions. The Krav Maga class was fun. It's operating out of the back of a warehouse with the garage doors open (they do have another location across town that's in a more traditional setting). The same center also offers BJJ, a karate program & Crossfit training. The instructor was knowledgeable, had an extensive background that included several years of Shotokan karate under Nishiyama, and is an instructor at both locations. The students were a decent mix of M/F, with a few beginners and some others that had obviously been doing this for longer.

The class started with a typical warmup, went on to review several basic self-defense techniques vs. someone trying to choke you from the front (really dumb attack, IMO, but it does happen occasionally) and escapes from a headlock, then went into partner pad work with some combinations. Basic techniques had minor variations, such as slightly different hand positions for guard, vertical punches, and so on, but nothing too mind boggling

A minor irritation was that there was only one partner change for the entire hour class; I'd have liked to have a chance to meet and work with other members of the class.

I let them know that I wasn't quite ready to jump into a relationship and that I needed to check out a few other programs before making a commitment, and they were fine with that.

Definitely a positive experience, but this brings up another question which seems pretty fundamental; how, exactly, do you know when/if you've found a good place with a good fit? It's certainly likely to take way more than a single trial class to determine this. I have found that I can often quickly decide that someplace is not going to be for me based on a single class or even a quick conversation, but the reverse doesn't seem to be true.



Thanks for this; I contacted him and it looks like I have another date for Friday.

This is a Complicated Question.
Krav Maga is in the Boat of Effective Self Defense Systems, but it isnt about how effective it is, right now.
It works. Thats all you need to know.

What you need to Decide, is if A: You like their Methodology compared to Other Methodologies; Enough to Justify Training under them.
And B: If you like the Way it is Instructed.

Krav Maga, for example, tends to Blend Striking and Grappling to an extent.
Other Arts like Kajukenbo do similar things, but with Takedowns instead of Grappling.

There are so many Variations of the same Idealogies, that it just has to come down to what YOU like

Best of Luck

 

[Nomad]

I for one would like to know how that Pans out

Systema Class last night was very... interesting. It definitely pulled me way out of my comfort zone (not a bad thing). Very small class (5 total), and very intense instructor. Started with a warmup that was completely outside my experience, doing breath control stuff involving pyramids of pushups, leg raises, and squats (to 10 each) after exhaling all your breath, with a recovery period between each set. Had a headache after class, likely partly caused by the repeated hypoxia that I wasn't used to.

Explained the "Pillars of Systema", and did a number of open hand drills, then some with a knife trainer. Tons of material and stuff to think about. A fairly big negative for me was that the instructor struck me as a bit of a sadist... far rougher than the other students, and IMHO unnecessarily so... to the point where I got a nice little throat punch to remind me that I had too much tension (in my first ever class). Trachea still a little sore this morning.

Another negative was the cost, which I thought was a bit high (flat $20 per 2h session).

So... good workout, nice collection of new bruises this morning, and I'm intrigued by the approach, but don't think I want to subject myself to this particular sort of training on a regular basis. Anyone know if this approach is typical of Systema, or did I stumble on someone just a bit more hardcore than I'd prefer?

 

[Mark Lynn]

Yes, yes it was

At the moment, I'm leaning towards programs that don't have a lot of kids involved, as I think the training dynamic necessarily changes when younger teens are in the same class. I think something outside the karate umbrella would be more useful to me than simply switching styles, but that could change if I found someone nearby teaching practical, realistic applications for kata with a good class dynamic.

What I would recommend is to check out Ian Abernethy website to see if you might be interested in his approach to applications of kata. I have found his material DVDs etc. etc. very useful. If that interested you then you might contact him or post on his forums to see if there are any instructors near you that have similar view points and instruction methods. He comes from a Wado ryu background but his katas you should be familiar with.
http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/

Coming from somewhere that did no contact sparring, I'm also looking for more contact, but not necessarily in a competitive sparring context (if that makes any sense whatsoever).

I believe a school that followed or had a like minded approach to karate training such as Mr. Abernethy's would meet this goal as well.

I've dabbled a little in other arts in the past, and while the very limited BJJ I've done was an interesting challenge and a great workout, it didn't really strike a chord for me. I've definitely thought about FMA, Krav Maga or Systema as possibilities, but need to try them on to see if they would fit.

I don't anything about Systema so I can't speak to that system.
However I love the FMAs and teach it along with American Karate/TKD system. That being said I believe the FMAs can be a good fit if you are wanting something that teaches more weapon based SD but I believe you need to find a style that teaches more in lines with a SD methodology than a dueling (blade or impact weapon) methodology. There is a difference and not all FMA styles are the same in this regards. Also one problem with the FMAs (as with other styles) is that an instructor can teach it as an add on system, they can get certifications even a black belt but just teach the art in a semi seminar type format and the quality of instruction varies greatly.

MY only experience in Krav came when I taught weapons defense at a Krav school over the course of a year or so as a guest instructor. I thought that the Krav System was good, however I thought then (and still do) that they (they Krav Maga organization) ran things through the school was really pretty shady. Not that the school or the instructor was shady, but how they had to do this or that to please the home organization was shady. In the end I felt it held back the students learning potential over all. All this to say that over the years (and this was 10+ years ago) things have changed and I believe their are more and more schools out there teaching KM, maybe even more organizations and such. But be careful as with any system.

With 10 years of experience in the martial arts I believe you can take three different course of direction and it all comes down to how you want to do it and what is available in your area.
1) Stay with a karate type system that you close to, but that teaches in a format that meets more of your needs and gain some new or added understanding of your primary art there. This is good, and generally easier than the next two suggestions.

2) Pick a new style that fits more with self defense or contact (one of your goals) and start over learning new skills, new techniques, new terms, different challenges etc. etc. While this can be great your primary art that you spent 10 years in will or can suffer, however you can after a time come out of it with better understanding of things in your root art as well as the new art.

3) Pick an art that will take years to master and just do it for the shear joy of it. I'm drawing on different examples here but like Kendo, kenjutsu, Silat, Wing Chun, Aikido, Aikijujitsu, Fencing, etc. etc. Any of these arts are great arts in and of themselves, but they really won't further your study of your root art (Karate), in fact they will teach you different and new skills that you can add to your tool box but for SD purposes may or may not fit your needs.

The arts in choices 2 and 3 are different. In 2 SD is the primary factor and they can over time help your primary art more. The arts in choice 3 are complete systems that involve giving yourself over to the art. Aikido has it's own theories, footwork, ways to block an attack etc. etc. Fencing has it's own way that doesn't go along with shotokan karate, Kenjutsu the same thing, Wing Chun.....

Oh well that's my thoughts on the subject.

 

[Nomad]

What I would recommend is to check out Ian Abernethy website to see if you might be interested in his approach to applications of kata. I have found his material DVDs etc. etc. very useful. If that interested you then you might contact him or post on his forums to see if there are any instructors near you that have similar view points and instruction methods. He comes from a Wado ryu background but his katas you should be familiar with.
http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/


I believe a school that followed or had a like minded approach to karate training such as Mr. Abernethy's would meet this goal as well.

I'm already a big fan of Mr. Abernethy's, and have done exactly as you recommended (without success so far... San Diego is a bit far from his usual range). I've toyed with the idea of following a similar approach in my training and sharing it with others who may be interested... but think I need to fill a few holes (mostly in the self-defense arena) before I'd really be ready to take this on and do a good job of it.

With 10 years of experience in the martial arts I believe you can take three different course of direction and it all comes down to how you want to do it and what is available in your area.
1) Stay with a karate type system that you close to, but that teaches in a format that meets more of your needs and gain some new or added understanding of your primary art there. This is good, and generally easier than the next two suggestions.

2) Pick a new style that fits more with self defense or contact (one of your goals) and start over learning new skills, new techniques, new terms, different challenges etc. etc. While this can be great your primary art that you spent 10 years in will or can suffer, however you can after a time come out of it with better understanding of things in your root art as well as the new art.

3) Pick an art that will take years to master and just do it for the shear joy of it. I'm drawing on different examples here but like Kendo, kenjutsu, Silat, Wing Chun, Aikido, Aikijujitsu, Fencing, etc. etc. Any of these arts are great arts in and of themselves, but they really won't further your study of your root art (Karate), in fact they will teach you different and new skills that you can add to your tool box but for SD purposes may or may not fit your needs.

The arts in choices 2 and 3 are different. In 2 SD is the primary factor and they can over time help your primary art more. The arts in choice 3 are complete systems that involve giving yourself over to the art. Aikido has it's own theories, footwork, ways to block an attack etc. etc. Fencing has it's own way that doesn't go along with shotokan karate, Kenjutsu the same thing, Wing Chun.....

Oh well that's my thoughts on the subject.

Yeah, that summarizes my feelings on it fairly well (though I could argue that several of the arts in category 3 do work from similar principles, and could add significantly to my root art over time...). So far, I'm definitely leaning towards option 2, though many of the arts in option 3 have their own attractions as well. I'm doing a bit of window shopping to see exactly what's available in my area, and trying on a few things to see if they fit.

 

[shima]

how, exactly, do you know when/if you've found a good place with a good fit? It's certainly likely to take way more than a single trial class to determine this. I have found that I can often quickly decide that someplace is not going to be for me based on a single class or even a quick conversation, but the reverse doesn't seem to be true.

For me when I moved states and needed a new dojo to train at I visited a few and the "right" dojo just stood out leaps and bounds above the others. For me the sign was that they let me try out a class the first night I came to visit, were very friendly and open about explaining, I got to work w/ the master and not a low level instructor for my first taste, and then after all that I found out that the dojo master/owner also taught Iaido, which was what first got me into martial arts back in 2000... that combined w/ my positive impression of the kenpo class itself was a sign and I signed up the very next time I came to visit. I just *knew* is the best way to explain it. The other schools I visited I didn't feel nearly the same at all.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I'm already a big fan of Mr. Abernethy's, and have done exactly as you recommended (without success so far... San Diego is a bit far from his usual range). I've toyed with the idea of following a similar approach in my training and sharing it with others who may be interested... but think I need to fill a few holes (mostly in the self-defense arena) before I'd really be ready to take this on and do a good job of it.

Yeah, that summarizes my feelings on it fairly well (though I could argue that several of the arts in category 3 do work from similar principles, and could add significantly to my root art over time...). So far, I'm definitely leaning towards option 2, though many of the arts in option 3 have their own attractions as well. I'm doing a bit of window shopping to see exactly what's available in my area, and trying on a few things to see if they fit.

I would agree that several arts in category three do work on similar principles to your root art and would add to your root art over time as well. But I felt like to help in your situation I had to draw a line somewhere, so I tried to organize it as such. I mean Bruce Lee took took concepts of fencing and used that to help formulate his concepts that ultimately helped create JKD, but fencing is a different art (sport). I had a friend who studied Tai Chi, the more he studied Tai Chi the more it took over his TKD and Arnis training, the way he moved and such (this was also his words and not mine). So that was what I was trying to say.

Anyway good luck in your search.

 

[Brian King]

Nomad wrote

“Anyone know if this approach is typical of Systema, or did I stumble on someone just a bit more hardcore than I'd prefer?”

I have always enjoyed training with Ken. He is intense but most warriors with his specialized background are so. You do not become a member of those units without being a type A person that pushes themselves and those around them to the highest standards. He is honest and that attribute is worth gold in my opinion. He trains soldiers and law enforcement officers all around the world and is the real deal. His background and experiences make him a much sought after top tier world class instructor and one I HIGHLY recommend. In fact if I lived in California I would make every effort to regularly train with him. That said Systema is not for everyone no matter the instructor.


Systema training methodology is quite different than what other martial artists might be used to. Systema is an individuals art, every practitioner performs their own interpretation differently. We have honest physical contact in class and this can be bit shocking to newcomers especially those that have prior martial arts experiences in arts that do not or whose experience is mostly in the competitive sparring type of work. In our methodology a student is placed in situations that allow them to explore their different internal states, their physical, mental and spiritual limitations and Systema instructors are experts at giving students what the students can handle, pushing and guiding the students to discover themselves. “Poznai Sebia” is an old name for our art- “Know Yourself”. Besides the opportunity for exploration every drill and exercise strengthens not only the physical body but the entire psyche of the individual. There are no beginner classes and everyone trains with everyone else. You might be paired up with a life long martial arts practitioner, a special forces soldier, a medical professional, or a housewife. All have the job of making their partner and themselves better, no matter the experience level, strengths/weaknesses, skill levels.


Nomad, above thread you stated that you are looking for training with a bias towards practical self defense and that coming from a no contact background were looking for more contact but not necessarily competitive sparring. Sometimes what we are asking for is not what we are expecting it to be, it can be shocking to our ego’s when we get what we ask for and Systema is often like a cold water douse. It might take a bit of getting used to in order to wrap your mind around it. You will be pushed outside of your comfort zone in nearly every class.


I would encourage you to try Ken’s group again (I have been involved with Systema over a decade and no two classes have ever been the same) I understand that Jeff Sodeman is now teaching an applied Aikido class at the same school. With Jeff’s long time Aikido experience and being a Systema instructor that class might be interesting to you or look up James Williams who also has a group in San Diego. James does a lot of sword work and comes from a more traditional background rather than special forces. Ken has a sword company Bugei and designed the Columbia River Knife and tool “Hissatsu” knife. If you are interested in classical weapons in addition to modern James has loads of experience.
Ken and Jeff links
http://sandiegosystema.com/
http://www.jiaiaikido.com/default.asp
http://www.jiaiaikido.com/video.asp?s=5


Jeff Williams school
http://www.systemacalifornia.com/index.html
http://www.dojoofthefourwinds.com/instructor.html


There is another Systema school in San Diego taught by Lester Cohem that I would suggest you checking out.
8979 Oviedo St.
San Diego, CA 92129 United States
(t)858-484-6137
http://www.russianmartialart.com/main.php?page=affiliates&loc=us&sta=CA


Lester is a well known martial artist (Karate mostly I think) and also a friend of mine. I have not been to any classes that he has taught so do not know what they are like. He is a long time martial artist who also has experience living thriving with a debilitating disease. I really enjoy working with him and do so whenever we are on the same training floor.


So in the immediate San Diego area are at least three diverse Systema instructors and programs for you to check out. Perhaps one of the three will be a good fit for you, if not today perhaps someday in the future. Good luck


Nomad wrote

“Had a headache after class, likely partly caused by the repeated hypoxia that I wasn't used to.”

Regarding headaches...did you mention it to Ken? Poznai Sebia. The headaches are a diagnostic of problems, possibly with your breathing and recovery or possibly excess tension (especially during transitions from standing to ground and ground to standing.) Whether or not if you continue martial arts or Systema this should be addressed in my opinion.


Good luck in your search and let me know if I can help at all.


Regards
Brian King

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If I was living in San Diego I would definitely give the Roy Harris Academy a try. (JKD - BJJ - Kali) I've been to classes with Roy Harris and one of his students and been impressed by the systematic teaching methodology.

 

[Nomad]

If I was living in San Diego I would definitely give the Roy Harris Academy a try. (JKD - BJJ - Kali) I've been to classes with Roy Harris and one of his students and been impressed by the systematic teaching methodology.

Hi Tony,

Good recommendation, and they are definitely on my radar. I trained with them briefly awhile back and enjoyed it; they were in transition to their new location, and I was in a different kind of transition at the time. I may have to go back now that they're more settled and I'm clearer about my training goals.