What do you think about this "Master"?

[Changhfy]

Hey Ali laoshi,

Not particularly, Wing Chun is Win Chun.

As you know there are alot of other expressions of Wing Chun other than Ip Man's.

For example lets say my expression of Wing Chun is called X Wing Chun and yours is Y Wing Chun.

I made up my own expression so there for Im the Grandmaster of my own expression of Wing Chun. (that doesnt mean that I can automatically assume the role of Buen Jyun of Wing Chun Kuen in general)

I would have to say that Ip Man himself was definitely the Grandmaster of his own expression, but not Hung Suen Wing Chun in general. (there were quite a few other students in Hung Suen Wing Chun other than Ip Man)

Actually there are quite a few systems of Wing Chun that have inheritors of that expression for example Hung Fa Yi has a Buen Jyun, Chi Sim has a Buen Jyun, Shaolin Wing Chun, Yuen Kay San, Gu Lao, etc...

Where as when Ip Man himself trained in Wing Chun there were already seniors other than himself. (so by tradition it would be hard to believe that they would pass up his seniors and give him the title of Buen Jyun of Hung Suen Wing Chun or in this case Leung Jan's expression)

take care,
Zach

 

[Ali Rahim]

I see what what you are saying but it’s a question of different times, different lineage or family tree, and even different parts of the county, but of the same fruit (wing chun)… Because one family does it one way, does not make the other family void of titles within their wing chun system…

None of those names that you mention are within the Yip Man’s family tree or before Yip Man himself. In a way you’re talking apples and orange, because the Yip Man family has nothing do with those particular wing chun groups… There are no connections between them but the word wing chun.

Ali.

 

[Ali Rahim]

When Yip Man started to teach in Hong Kong openly, his seniors were already dead and he was the only one left to carry the family tree.

http://www.wingchun.com.au/lineage.shtml

Ali.

 

[Ali Rahim]

Oops,, there is one name that you mention that is within the Yip Man's family tree (Leung Jan)… But he died way before Yip Man was even born.

Ali.

 

[bcbernam777]

I just finished following this grand discussion amongst Masters(lol, excuse the pun, not meant to offend anyone in particular. Just considering the subject I thought we could use a little humour to lighten things up.).
With regards to your post, BC, Ive read some of your other posts and i admire your position on a lot of the subjects. You seem to be very competent about wing chun and martial arts in general. You also have a very non-egotistic philosophy about your training and your art. A person like you would do a great benefit to the martial community, especialy wing chun, if you did consider taking on a couple of students. Taking the ego out of your training, teaching, or even just everyday interaction with people in general will give everyone you come in contact with something to learn from you. You are in a position to set a very good and strong 'internal' example of being a martial artist for any students you decide to take on.
That being said. I wholly encourage you to take the advice of your Sifu. You should teach! Teaching gives you even more of an opportunity to let go of ego and be there for the two most important reasons...the art(which has been here long before us and will be here when we are gone) and for the student( who is the reason why the art will remain after we are gone). Let us not forget that master,sifu,sensei, big brother almighty...whatever title you choose...what do the masters do? THEY TEACH. This does not mean that they take on large school projects with 200 students and all that. It could mean that they only take on 1-3 students that they can devote real time into developing real skills and to plant the seed of the art for the next generation and maybe make a little scratch on the side to pay the bills or support any personal habits (sound familliar?).
All in all I look forward to hearing from you more in the future and this forum. Whatever path you choose, good luck!

4th dan in Shaolin Kempo Karate, student of SIFU Ali Rahim,

GrayChuan


P.S. We could all just meet up and knuckle up. Whomever is left standing gets the tiltle. Or we could all fight over the title 'headband' like in 'AFRO SAMURAI' on Spike TV. (roflmao)

Wow, what can I say after that? Thanks for that, I am glad I have made some level of impact, and hope to do more in the future.

 

[Changhfy]

Hey Ali laoshi,

Based on the Ip Man lineage.

The Chan Wah Shun lineage already has a inheritor. (from the Chan family)
(and Ip Man was the last student of Chan Wah Shun)

So for Ip Man to be a Buen Jyun he would have had to inherit the system from Leung Bik. (which I have never heard a record of, not to say it doesnt exist)

But thanks for your info, alot of the stuff you mention really broadens my knowledge.


take care,
Zach

 

[Ali Rahim]

I never heard of anyone taking that clam in the Yip Man’s family tree, "Chan Wah Shun" was just a moneychanger, he brought dollars he was not that liked among ordinary people, he was not that special at all and no one really liked him…

Before Yip Man started teaching in Hong Kong, all of his seniors were dead he was the only one left, if what you are saying is true, then Yip Man should not exist in the wing chun family tree or his Hong Kong wing chun family also, which opens up I whole new can of worms.

Ali.

 

[Changhfy]

Hey Ali laoshi,

From what I understand. Chan Guo Ji (great grandson of Chan Wah Shun)
Is claiming to be the gate keeper or Buen Jyun for the Chan family.

Heres a link sorry its only in Chinese.

http://www.sc168.com/file/sdnews/sdnews/200411090028.htm

This may be true, but I have no relations to the Chan family. (but he had claimed to have written records following Chan Wah Shun)



I wish you the best.


take care,
Zach

 

[Ali Rahim]

Hey Ali laoshi,

From what I understand. Chan Guo Ji (great grandson of Chan Wah Shun)
Is claiming to be the gate keeper or Buen Jyun for the Chan family.

Heres a link sorry its only in Chinese.

http://www.sc168.com/file/sdnews/sdnews/200411090028.htm

This may be true, but I have no relations to the Chan family. (but he had claimed to have written records following Chan Wah Shun)



I wish you the best.


take care,
Zach

This is why I find that hard to believe, when the art of wing chun came about it was during the time of war, the “Ching Dynasty takeover”… The Manchurians were more or less the secret police for the “Ching Dynasty…. It got so bad for the rebels that were fighting against the Ching and Manchurians that the war spread over into the Shoalin Temples where some of the rebels were hiding, in cause and effect the temple were under attack, and most of them were burned to the ground…

By the time that the Manchu’s got to the Sli Lum temple the system was created and all of the masters that created this system went each their own way, never making anyone a leader or heir to the system in which they all created and if anyone was to be the head man,, it would surely be the head fighting monk “Jun sheen” head monk or guardian of “Forever Spring Time” training hall in the Sil Lum Temple….

The wing chun system was a secret fighting art that could easily identified you as a rebel or a rebel supporter… Fighting arts were easy to identify just as a gun caliber is today… The five master that created this system were always running for their lives and no one took such an oath within this family tree, unless it was "Yim Yee Tai" and he would not have a right too do so… From my 20 years of research within this system, I have never hard of such a clam… Only the five masters could make that decision,, and there was no record of them ever meeting up as a unit again…

Ali.

 

[Ali Rahim]

Now if the wing chun system was created by five different masters at Sli Lum temple and none of them were elected head man,, so it had to be a united title far as master is concerned (all of them were master in this system) so it would only be recognized through the family lineage not from one who makes such clams as head man or sole hire of this system,, that would eliminate all the different branches of the five grandmaster and their wing chun family tree as well…

Only “Yim Yee Tai” could make such clams but he died of bronchitis well before the Chan famlily were involved of place into the wing chun family tree,, Yim Yee Tai did not make Dr. Leung a master in this system because he did not have the right,, from common since one can tell; that is nothing more then a scam,, or one calling himself a master of ones expression and not the sloe heir of the wing chun system.

Ali.

 

[Changhfy]

I would have to agree with you in your post

Being that Wong Wah Bo was also the senior of Yee Tai and Dai Fa Min Kam it would seem logical that Wong Wah Bo would be the lineage holder of Hung Suen Wing Chun.

But one thing to remember history as with many things is sometimes hard to find concrete proof giving the conditions of secrecy that had to be maintained in that era.

I've heard quite a few different quotes and takes on the history and development of Wing Chun. (which is true and which is false really isnt as important as the big picture of what Wing Chun really is)

But the history of Wing Chun is defintely an interesting topic.

As far as the Buen Jyun of Hung Suen Wing Chun, maybe its best that thats never known.

Each Sifu that I have seen have all had something important and different to be shown. (so I guess their uniqueness is whats most important, and understanding the bigger picture as opposed to small differences that set most families apart)

Hopefully in the future as more info is released we can broaden our understandings. (that would be great)


take care,
Zach

 

[Ali Rahim]

You are 100% right about it being so many different stories; it would be really hard to find the whole truth, but if you start from “Yim Yee Tai” on down it will be hard to get lost on who is who or what is what, because the Yip Man's system stems from Yim Yee Tai himself…

It’s not that often that someone gets me in my history mode and you seem to know your business it’s always a pleasure taking with you… I really like you a lot as person and never once did you trip out, you stay in there just nice and calm and with knowledge also.

Stay up my kung fu brother.

Ali.

 

[Changhfy]

Thanks alot Ali laoshi,

Its awesome to have a Sifu of your caliber and knowledge on the forums.

Its not said very often but your knowledge is appreciated, maybe as more knowledge on Wing Chun's history becomes available the Wing Chun community can keep having civilized debates. I know we all can learn and grow from exchanging knowledge.

Im going to try and start looking up more info on various aspects of Wing Chun's history in more detail.

Ill post them and see what your ideas of these are.

I wish you the best.


take care,
Zach