The Perceived Weaknesses in Wing Chun: Did Master Lee leave Wing Chun Too Early?

[jeff_hasbrouck]

I've recently read something that places BL's outlook on wing chun in a pretty good perspective. We all know the story of how Bruce studied under Yip Man and mostly his senior students. We also know the story of the two versions of wing chun Yip Man learned over his lifetime, the one by Master Chan Wah shun and authentic one taught to him by Leung Bik of the Leung family. Well, the story goes bruce was asked to leave the kwoon since he was beginning to best many of Yip Man's senior students and their was jealousy over he accamin for the arts and natural ability. Yip Man unwillingly had to ask bruce to leave the kwoon but then asked cheung and another senior student to continue teaching bruce. Long story short it leads into the claim by Cheung of Yip Man teaching him the Leung version of wing chun which included the footwork and the concept of central line among other differences.

We know the story goes Cheung was told to not reveal this version of wing chun as he was not in position to relay it to anyone while Yip man was the current owner of the system. It's said he really wanted to teach it to bruce while training bruce in the "modified version" of wing chun but could not. So, instead of speaking it, Cheung would leave clues in training like immediately shutting down BL's attacks, using footwork to step offline and attack his blind side. The story goes further that this frustrated bruce and lead him to the idea that wing chun was lacking. Coupled also with the fight he had chinatown in which he had a hard time with Wong Jack Man using the modified version of wing chun.

So basically, the story says bruce's common sense in the arts told him that something was incomplete about wing chun system as he had learned it. It also says he only had of 60% knowledge of the wing chun system. What is ironic, is the same way in jkd how you're on more of the balls of feet for side stepping, launching quickly is much of the same in "traditional wing chun" and not readily seen in the "modified version" of yip man's wing chun.

While there is obviously much controversy, to me this is plausible. To keep the true handed down version of wing chun in the Leung family while obliging Chan Wah Shun, it is not too far fetched that it was modified for Chan Wah Shun who was naturally pretty skillful in the arts. It also said, after Yip Man learned from Leung Bik, he retruned to his original school and defeated other students with the new knowledge.

If this is a story, this is one hell of a story.

Never heard a thing about it before that... That IS one helluva story man! But that makes hella sense!

On the footwork issue with the "modified WC"; I don't think that would be as plausible. Ya see, BL took his stance the "SPBKS" or "Small Phasic Bent Knee Stance" from boxing and fencing. The ability to be extremely mobile (fencing, moving forward and backward), yet have a grounded base to generate massive amounts of power (boxing). The older he got, the less and less he was in fixed positions and more into dynamic fighting, to where you wouldn't be able to see any semblence to an actual stance. You should really check out "Bruce Lee's Fighting Method" Vol. 1-4. I haven't read them in YEARS, but they set up how and why he does certain things. The first one is just training, but he has how to set up stance, properly punch and kick (with footwork variations included). And I'm pretty sure he goes into how fencing and boxing ties into it in those particular books, but again, I haven't read them in probably 10 years.

All the best man!

 

[Cyriacus]

1. I don't see a cop-out.

Sure you dont.

2.That's like saying a Med. PHD isn't valid for practicing medicine (your a moron).

Medicine and Philosophy are as incomparable as Martial Arts and Philosophy. Also, im afraid this isnt a playground, your jabs at the ego you think i have wont get you anything.

2a. Your reaching. Philosophy is about looking at the "other end of the spectrem", or "outside the box".

...and?

2b. Who are you to determine someone elses stage of enlightenment? A: Nobody

And who are you, good sir? I suppose youre qualified to idolize him? For your information, no such qualification exists.

3. Yes he inspires me, from all facets of his life. I wasn't going gung-ho on defending him, I just hate idiots and ignoramious'. And thats what I replied to.
4. I don't think; I act.

How nice for you.

5.No- again your reaching. Bruce Lee wasn't just a pioneer in the field of MMA, he was pretty much the architect. So he DID have more experience than anyone, because he was numero uno. And he trained harder, more realisticly than anyone else out there.

Mixing martial arts happened before Lee was even born, mate.

5a. I'm well aware of whom is dangerous and whom isn't. I'm a country boy, I've seen some crazy **** from all types of people. Little guys who could tear *** wholesale and big guys who were just teddy bears. (Again, your being obscenely pompous).

Youre the one selling yourself high, bud. At no point have i even MENTIONED myself.

6. Wow, your such a defender of the idiots.

Oh no, my poor ego

7. Thats so people like you might finally get the point. It's called "re-itteration"...

Oh no, my poor ego

Alright, brief summary:

I try to make points: I'm not a colomnist; Just a regular guy with a point of view. If you don't like my format: take a long walk off a short cliff.

And if you dont want to have your views interrogated, stop stating them on public discussion boards.

The only reason I said something, was because I was correcting someone, no its not my job, its my right. I don't mean to be so crass and abrasive, but thats just how I am. And when you act like a butt-head, I respond in kind. Again, stop opening your mouth when your being a toolbag, or you have no clue of whats going on. Especially if your not even making sense.

Not making sense? Go back and read without your ego trip.

 

[Cyriacus]

So you dont care if he knew WC or not because he knew how to fight? But the question is ABOUT his view of WC, not his ability to fight. Thats a copout answer. If he just didnt like WC, thats fine! But theres a difference between not liking something and claiming that theres something wrong with it.



Your point being? Having a degree in philosophy doesnt validate your philosophical views.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sigh. BL did not have a degree in philosphy. He took some classes at UW- basically Cs in philo.

Thats even better

 

[jks9199]

Wow, folks... A whole lotta heat coming out. Let's try to tone it down a bit, and maybe keep the name calling out of it entirely. Consider this a friendly reminder...

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Sure you dont.



Medicine and Philosophy are as incomparable as Martial Arts and Philosophy. Also, im afraid this isnt a playground, your jabs at the ego you think i have wont get you anything.



...and?



And who are you, good sir? I suppose youre qualified to idolize him? For your information, no such qualification exists.



How nice for you.



Mixing martial arts happened before Lee was even born, mate.



Youre the one selling yourself high, bud. At no point have i even MENTIONED myself.



Oh no, my poor ego



Oh no, my poor ego



And if you dont want to have your views interrogated, stop stating them on public discussion boards.



Not making sense? Go back and read without your ego trip.

I like you. I don't like your opinon one bit; But at least you hold your own.

 

[Cyriacus]

I like you. I don't like your opinon one bit; But at least you hold your own.

Im sure we can agree to disagree

 

[StormShadow]

The love is in the airrrrr!!! lol

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[Cyriacus]

The coffee is in the airrrrr!!! lol

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

I fixed your reply!

 

[VT_Vectis]

I've recently read something that places BL's outlook on wing chun in a pretty good perspective. We all know the story of how Bruce studied under Yip Man and mostly his senior students. We also know the story of the two versions of wing chun Yip Man learned over his lifetime, the one by Master Chan Wah shun and authentic one taught to him by Leung Bik of the Leung family. Well, the story goes bruce was asked to leave the kwoon since he was beginning to best many of Yip Man's senior students and their was jealousy over he accamin for the arts and natural ability. Yip Man unwillingly had to ask bruce to leave the kwoon but then asked cheung and another senior student to continue teaching bruce. Long story short it leads into the claim by Cheung of Yip Man teaching him the Leung version of wing chun which included the footwork and the concept of central line among other differences.

We know the story goes Cheung was told to not reveal this version of wing chun as he was not in position to relay it to anyone while Yip man was the current owner of the system. It's said he really wanted to teach it to bruce while training bruce in the "modified version" of wing chun but could not. So, instead of speaking it, Cheung would leave clues in training like immediately shutting down BL's attacks, using footwork to step offline and attack his blind side. The story goes further that this frustrated bruce and lead him to the idea that wing chun was lacking. Coupled also with the fight he had chinatown in which he had a hard time with Wong Jack Man using the modified version of wing chun.

So basically, the story says bruce's common sense in the arts told him that something was incomplete about wing chun system as he had learned it. It also says he only had of 60% knowledge of the wing chun system. What is ironic, is the same way in jkd how you're on more of the balls of feet for side stepping, launching quickly is much of the same in "traditional wing chun" and not readily seen in the "modified version" of yip man's wing chun.

While there is obviously much controversy, to me this is plausible. To keep the true handed down version of wing chun in the Leung family while obliging Chan Wah Shun, it is not too far fetched that it was modified for Chan Wah Shun who was naturally pretty skillful in the arts. It also said, after Yip Man learned from Leung Bik, he retruned to his original school and defeated other students with the new knowledge.

If this is a story, this is one hell of a story.

What a load codswallop, hogwash and baldurdash! There's an authenticated letter in Bruce's own hand addressed to Wong Shun Leung in which BL acknowledged Yip Man as his SiFu but WSL as his teacher, owing to the fact that he conducted most of his training.

Considering that they remained great friends up to the day BL died, visited and trained with each other and exchanged ideas/philosophies with each other (ie. Wsl "do not be a slave to the system" "be simple, direct and effective", "use nothing that has no use") .... Owing to these facts how was he secret pupil of cheungs so-called true system?

 

[StormShadow]

What a load codswallop, hogwash and baldurdash! There's an authenticated letter in Bruce's own hand addressed to Wong Shun Leung in which BL acknowledged Yip Man as his SiFu but WSL as his teacher, owing to the fact that he conducted most of his training.

Considering that they remained great friends up to the day BL died, visited and trained with each other and exchanged ideas/philosophies with each other (ie. Wsl "do not be a slave to the system" "be simple, direct and effective", "use nothing that has no use") .... Owing to these facts how was he secret pupil of cheungs so-called true system?

Bruce lee actually spoke of cheung and WSL to his pupils per their recounts. Also, no where is it suggested BL was a pupil of WC system. BL was taught what Yip man passed down. WC did not start teaching his system until after grandmaster yip man passed.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

What a load codswallop, hogwash and baldurdash! There's an authenticated letter in Bruce's own hand addressed to Wong Shun Leung in which BL acknowledged Yip Man as his SiFu but WSL as his teacher, owing to the fact that he conducted most of his training.

Considering that they remained great friends up to the day BL died, visited and trained with each other and exchanged ideas/philosophies with each other (ie. Wsl "do not be a slave to the system" "be simple, direct and effective", "use nothing that has no use") .... Owing to these facts how was he secret pupil of cheungs so-called true system?

Bruce Lee also trained with William Cheung. Just saying. Another thing he did was trade his wing chun knowledge with people from other systems and learn some of theirs for some of his. He was very crafty at learning new techniques when he was younger.

 

[Argus]

Bruce Lee did train primarily with Wong Shun Leung, from what I understand, though he did practice with Cheung also. However, the whole story about William Cheung getting the "real" "authentic" version of WC from Yip Man and passing it on to Bruce is quite rightly "a load codswallop, hogwash and baldurdash". And quite frankly, disrespectful to both Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung, not to mention the whole of the Yip Man family.

I have to wonder if some concepts of Wing Chun were a bit lost on Bruce, simply because he was so gifted, both physically and mentally. Wing Chun strives not to rely on speed, strength, or size. Bruce Lee, being very athletic, seems not to have valued the strict economy of motion and rootedness that Wing Chun calls for. And to be fair, when you're as quick and talented as he was, that's not as important, and you might even view it as holding you back when you're physically capable of more.

So, that's why I say I would have liked to see how Bruce might have changed his method had he lived to be much older.

 

[StormShadow]

Bruce Lee did train primarily with Wong Shun Leung, from what I understand, though he did practice with Cheung also. However, the whole story about William Cheung getting the "real" "authentic" version of WC from Yip Man and passing it on to Bruce is quite rightly "a load codswallop, hogwash and baldurdash". And quite frankly, disrespectful to both Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung, not to mention the whole of the Yip Man family.

I have to wonder if some concepts of Wing Chun were a bit lost on Bruce, simply because he was so gifted, both physically and mentally. Wing Chun strives not to rely on speed, strength, or size. Bruce Lee, being very athletic, seems not to have valued the strict economy of motion and rootedness that Wing Chun calls for. And to be fair, when you're as quick and talented as he was, that's not as important, and you might even view it as holding you back when you're physically capable of more.

So, that's why I say I would have liked to see how Bruce might have changed his method had he lived to be much older.

Not to rehash old new but actually, GM William Cheung did not pass on "traditional"/"his version of wing chun" on to bruce lee. I do not believe he ever said that. All he said was he helped trained him with WSL which is backed by students of bruce lee. I recently saw a clip on one of bruce lee's movies and he executed wing chun techniques so fast that full speed it is hard to see it. I can only make some of it out in slow motion.

 

[Argus]

Not to rehash old new but actually, GM William Cheung did not pass on "traditional"/"his version of wing chun" on to bruce lee. I do not believe he ever said that. All he said was he helped trained him with WSL which is backed by students of bruce lee. I recently saw a clip on one of bruce lee's movies and he executed wing chun techniques so fast that full speed it is hard to see it. I can only make some of it out in slow motion.

Eh, my real hang up (and I think VT_Vectis') was this bit:

Yip Man unwillingly had to ask bruce to leave the kwoon but then asked cheung and another senior student to continue teaching bruce. Long story short it leads into the claim by Cheung of Yip Man teaching him the Leung version of wing chun which included the footwork and the concept of central line among other differences.

I don't know where this story originated, but it sounds as if William Cheung is trying to take credit from Wong Shun Leung.
Firstly, we know that Yip Man asked Wong Shun Leung to train Bruce. Never have I heard mention of him asking anyone else, and I tend to really doubt that Yip Man would ask Cheung also, as Cheung had only been training a few years by this time, and would have been about 14 years old in 1955. Admittedly, the same age as Bruce, but certainly not a teacher whom Yip Man might approach.
Now, why does the paragraph seemingly insert Cheung's name, omit Wong Shun Leung's, and make it seem as if Cheung was Bruce's main teacher?

 

[StormShadow]

Eh, my real hang up (and I think VT_Vectis') was this bit:



I don't know where this story originated, but it sounds as if William Cheung is trying to take credit from Wong Shun Leung.
Firstly, we know that Yip Man asked Wong Shun Leung to train Bruce. Never have I heard mention of him asking anyone else, and I tend to really doubt that Yip Man would ask Cheung also, as Cheung had only been training a few years by this time, and would have been about 14 years old in 1955. Admittedly, the same age as Bruce, but certainly not his Sifu.
Now, why does the paragraph seemingly insert Cheung's name, omit Wong Shun Leung's, and make it seem as if Cheung was Bruce's main teacher?

I just think you're getting a little defensive. Wong Shun Leung was a great fighter, martial artist, student ect. No one is disrespecting him. I would be the last to disrespect anyone in the wing chun family especially those who were directly under yip man.

 

[StormShadow]

Eh, my real hang up (and I think VT_Vectis') was this bit:



I don't know where this story originated, but it sounds as if William Cheung is trying to take credit from Wong Shun Leung.
Firstly, we know that Yip Man asked Wong Shun Leung to train Bruce. Never have I heard mention of him asking anyone else, and I tend to really doubt that Yip Man would ask Cheung also, as Cheung had only been training a few years by this time, and would have been about 14 years old in 1955. Admittedly, the same age as Bruce, but certainly not a teacher whom Yip Man might approach.
Now, why does the paragraph seemingly insert Cheung's name, omit Wong Shun Leung's, and make it seem as if Cheung was Bruce's main teacher?

Per BL's students recount of conversations with Bruce, this is what they said. I have to take their word since I wasn't there. WSL and WC were to continue training bruce with of course the main and most senior teacher being WSL.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Poor little Bruce... Only a 3/4 chinese so everyone picked on him for being a qui-lo lol.

 

[Argus]

> Storm

No problem. I didn't mean to sound defensive, and I realize you didn't mean to disrespect anyone. I was just wondering where you picked up that story from, because it sounds very suspicious to me.

For the record, my intention isn't to bash William Cheung either. I just don't put much faith in the integrity of his claims / stories.

 

[StormShadow]

> Storm

No problem. I didn't mean to sound defensive, and I realize you didn't mean to disrespect anyone. I was just wondering where you picked up that story from, because it sounds very suspicious to me.

For the record, my intention isn't to bash William Cheung either. I just don't put much faith in the integrity of his claims / stories.

From conversations with people of wing chun, jkd, and research to verify. But BL for the most part was his own animal and likely would have transcended everyone in wing chun had he learned the complete system and continued to train and refine his skills in it. Regarding GM Cheung, you as in many other people feel the say way. It's all personal preferences and that's cool. I'm in traditional wing chun yet I feel I can learn from everyone and holds no one's personal flavor of wing chun above another. I will always believe it's the fighter and not the art. So you will not hear from me, my style is authentic or my style is the best bc at the end of the day it doesn't matter what is perceived as "the best" or "most correct" if you do not train well enough to absorb the concepts and able implement them in a nano second.