The Perceived Weaknesses in Wing Chun: Did Master Lee leave Wing Chun Too Early?

[yak sao]

The same could be said of anyone with a good track record. But hey, if this is your system of measurement then Mike Tyson > Bruce Lee.
So, make a list of all the things thatre so phenomenal about him. Id seriously like to know.

I wrote this reply on an earlier thread.....

Probably won't win any popularity contests with this but here goes.....

I think Bruce Lee in many ways hurt martial arts. I know, I know, he in many ways brought reality back to MA, .something that was sadly lacking, and I find him an inspiration in many ways.
But he created a bunch of half baked imitators who learned pieces and parts of different systems and "created their own systems".

Very few study their art in depth anymore.

I think Bruce Lee was a fine MAist. He was charismatic, had good attributes and to this day, when I see Enter the Dragon, it inspires me to get off my dead **** and train.
But I think too many people see him as THE martial artist, and I really don't think he was.
I think much of this legend status comes from his mysterious ,early death.

 

[bogdan.sifu]

In my opinion, Bruce Lee was actually smart enough to adapt to new circumstance. The meaning of Biu Gee, 3rd form, is actually not to be controlled by the style, instead use it as a tool. The beauty of Wing Chun is it's awesome capacity to adapt.

 

[_JLC_]

The same could be said of anyone with a good track record. But hey, if this is your system of measurement then Mike Tyson > Bruce Lee.
So, make a list of all the things thatre so phenomenal about him. Id seriously like to know.

Maybe not phenomenal, what for me its always been the simple things which impressed me personally about Bruce Lee. Sure, there would be people stronger then him now who can punch/kick harder. But I'm sure they will have a lot of weight on him!

I struggle to recall a time where BL was even slightly off balance, placed his foot after a kick not exactly where he wanted it, or didn't look 100% in control. Sure, he might not have been in a actual fight on a lot of his YouTube clips, but not many people look so graceful and relaxed doing MA as he did? The speed and accuracy in his kicks would have to be still right up there with todays Martial Artists?

 

[Cyriacus]

Maybe not phenomenal, what for me its always been the simple things which impressed me personally about Bruce Lee. Sure, there would be people stronger then him now who can punch/kick harder. But I'm sure they will have a lot of weight on him!

I struggle to recall a time where BL was even slightly off balance, placed his foot after a kick not exactly where he wanted it, or didn't look 100% in control. Sure, he might not have been in a actual fight on a lot of his YouTube clips, but not many people look so graceful and relaxed doing MA as he did? The speed and accuracy in his kicks would have to be still right up there with todays Martial Artists?

Oh, as a technician he was up there. But that doesnt really say much for him being phenomenal. We CAN however agree on him perhaps being above average, and a swell technician

 

[StormShadow]

lol ... Why are people talking as if they could actually match Bruce Lee's skill in his prime? Bruce had real street fights. How much more real can you get? No he did not fight in mma because mma didn't exist in its current form. Is the descention on bruce lee just to go against the grain of mainstream?

 

[Cyriacus]

lol ... Why are people talking as if they could actually match Bruce Lee's skill in his prime? Bruce had real street fights. How much more real can you get? No he did not fight in mma because mma didn't exist in its current form. Is the descention on bruce lee just to go against the grain of mainstream?

Did i say one thing about MMA bud?

Also, notice how youre placing him on a pedestal? "lol ... Why are people talking as if they could actually match Bruce Lee's skill in his prime?"
Go find me one thing to show me that as a head to head fighter - Not as a technician, not as a balanced artsy guy - Hes anything more than MAYBE above average. Seriously, im waiting. Still. Because so far all ive seen is pretty average work for someone with a few years of decent body mechanics going for them.

I feel like adding that i could take Bruce Lee in his prime. Easy. Im not sure why id want to bother with aiming to match him head to head though.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I like Bruce Lee, as a martial artist and as an actor

Bruce Lee was a great martial artist and a good fighter…but not a God.

Could he kick my butt in his prime if I were in my prime? Likely yes.
Are there martial artists alive today in their prime that could beat Bruce Lee in his Prime? Likely yes

There is a story about him backing down from Carter Wong in Hong Kong back when Carter Wong was the martial arts instructor for the Royal Hong Kong Police Department. There are also stories of him successfully defeating many challengers on the set of "Fist of Fury" too.

So take anything said about Bruce Lee with a grain of salt because it is rather hard at this point to separate the man from the myth.

And as much as I like a good JKD/JF school based on quotes I have read from Bruce Lee I do not think he would be all too happy about all those out there teaching JKD as a style of martial arts

 

[Cyriacus]

I like Bruce Lee, as a martial artist and as an actor

Bruce Lee was a great martial artist and a good fighter…but not a God.

I should add that through sleep deprivation, i may be coming across a bit more judgementally than normal. Im not putting down Bruce Lee, im putting down the idolized version of him. In an effort to be diplomatic, i shall comment that there are so many interpretations of JKD and so forth out there that attaching it to Bruce Lee would be like attaching LED lights to the dude who invented light bulbs whos name i forget (mostly because i think some guy technically invented it before he did. unless im misremembering)

 

[StormShadow]

I should add that through sleep deprivation, i may be coming across a bit more judgementally than normal. Im not putting down Bruce Lee, im putting down the idolized version of him. In an effort to be diplomatic, i shall comment that there are so many interpretations of JKD and so forth out there that attaching it to Bruce Lee would be like attaching LED lights to the dude who invented light bulbs whos name i forget (mostly because i think some guy technically invented it before he did. unless im misremembering)

If someone wants to see him as an idol, perhaps to inspire themselves to great things, how is this anything less than good? BL inspired people across all spectrum in and out of martial arts. Not too many people in this world has had that sort of effect on the world. That alone, IMO is phenomenal.

 

[Cyriacus]

If someone wants to see him as an idol, perhaps to inspire themselves to great things, how is this anything less than good? BL inspired people across all spectrum in and out of martial arts. Not too many people in this world has had that sort of effect on the world. That alone, IMO is phenomenal.

Mate, theres nothing wrong with that. Thats good. Good for all those people. If youre amongst them, then good for you.
Theres a line between putting someone on a pedestal and painting the pedestal gold, then pointing it at people. Movies he was in inspired people. If it werent for them noone would know who he was or care. MMA did that as well, simply by existing. I repeat: Theres nothing wrong with Bruce Lee. But you dont need to sell him high in some sort of commemorative inclination. I asked you to provide me with anything to show that he was as good a fighter as you claim, and that stands. That doesnt make him bad, it means that you dont need him to be the bloody god of fighting to look up to him. You can see him as he was and still look up to him.

 

[StormShadow]

Mate, theres nothing wrong with that. Thats good. Good for all those people. If youre amongst them, then good for you.
Theres a line between putting someone on a pedestal and painting the pedestal gold, then pointing it at people. Movies he was in inspired people. If it werent for them noone would know who he was or care. MMA did that as well, simply by existing. I repeat: Theres nothing wrong with Bruce Lee. But you dont need to sell him high in some sort of commemorative inclination. I asked you to provide me with anything to show that he was as good a fighter as you claim, and that stands. That doesnt make him bad, it means that you dont need him to be the bloody god of fighting to look up to him. You can see him as he was and still look up to him.

Yes, He inspired me. First, to seek out jkd and than as I became older, I thought, if BL was that good than his teacher must've been excellent. Those thoughts are the reason I am studying wing chun now. But, I didn't know you asked me specifically for examples. I do not have any first hand accounts. All I can provide are examples from the net that can be interpreted as what you're asking for proof of. If that's ok, I will provide those.

 

[Cyriacus]

Yes, He inspired me. First, to seek out jkd and than as I became older, I thought, if BL was that good than his teacher must've been excellent. Those thoughts are the reason I am studying wing chun now. But, I didn't know you asked me specifically for examples. I do not have any first hand accounts. All I can provide are examples from the net that can be interpreted as what you're asking for proof of. If that's ok, I will provide those.

Thats cool with me. Ive looked up videos of Bruce Lee, and i see a mediocre/slightly above par striker. His philosophy is fine, his bodybuilding is fine, his execution is questionable. But if ive just been missing the good stuff somewhere, please do.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Well there's a couple facts I like to bring up whenever discussing Bruce Lee. First off; I've read his/John Little's (guy who arranged and published all of Bruce's notes and made them into books etc.) entire catolague. Bruce says many times over that WT/WC is lacking. Now Personally I've never seen bruce lee do Chum-kiu/Biu-Tze/Dummy/Long Pole/Knives or anything to tell me that he had more than a rudimentery introduciton into WT/WC. A very trusted information source (Sifu Alex Richter; City Wing Tsun) says that bruce lee knew more than that however. I don't remember the details, but I'm pretty sure Sifu Alex said something about chum-kiu and or the long pole.

But if we get back to the basics, Tao of Gung-Fu (his philosophical literary works) you can see that BL very much believes in the theories and principals of Wing Chun; He however decides that a different method of achieving those results (I.e. using different techniques). BL also says in many books that we can use whatever technique that feels comfortable to US; HOWEVER he repeatedly says over and over not to kick above the waist, yet you see JKD people all over doing this ALL THE TIME. And before you can say "BUT BRUCE LEE DOES IT TOO! No, no he doesn't. He TRAINED those kicks and rediculous punches to give himself more flexability and maintained that it is always better to be prepared, which is kinda contradictory to his proclomation of "Hacking away the un-essential".

Looking through interviews, and his note's we can plainly see that BL had no interest left in the learning the "complete WT/WC system". He didn't want as we would call "Second hand knowledge".

Bruce Lee wasn't just an Martial Artist; He was (of course a film star), but an AMAZING athlete, philosophical thinker and innovator of more than just martial techniques; But fitness apparatus and workout routines.

He didn't get this knowledge "Second Hand"... He went and TESTED and Proved/Disproved all this on his own! He didn't go learn something from Sifu Yip or James Lee or WSL or William Cheung and take their word for it, he would go against his guys, full battle gear and test it out to see if it was worth its snuff.

So in Reference to the Thread Question; Hell no Bruce Lee wouldn't do WT/WC or be affiliated with it, he would have givin us something as equally amazing but decidely its own.

But just remember, to those people who say "Bruce Lee didn't learn enough to make assumptions/or really know what he was talking about", Yes in fact he did.

Remember back in the day, you didn't learn from just your Instructor, you learned on the street. And Bruce Lee was notorious as a busy body/trouble maker. Being in many street fights, he tested and tested his Wing Chun. He was in a gang "Tigers of Junction Street". And he did study for 4 years before moving to America. And in those Four years he did learn quite the amount. He was the best in his class, easily shutting down anyone in Chi-Sau; So maybe his theoretical knowledge couldn't compare to say Leung Ting, or WSL NOW, but back then; He was the Cream of the Crop. He was the Chan Wah Shun of the 1900's, a very qualified fighter, while the others were more Theory oriented.

Anyways, a brief summary; Bruce Lee would back the theories of WT/WC, but he would not follow the physical techniques as he would have had even MORE time to develop better technques. Don't get me wrong I'm sure he would have emphasized tan/pak/lop more often in JKD, and probably more kicks and dummy techniqes (fat-sau etc), but he would have went his own way.

All the best and thanks for the interesting post!

Jeff

 

[Vajramusti]

Well there's a couple facts I like to bring up whenever discussing Bruce Lee. First off; I've read his/John Little's (guy who arranged and published all of Bruce's notes and made them into books etc.) entire catolague. Bruce says many times over that WT/WC is lacking.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
BL can have his own opinion.
1. Beyond the slt stage he knew techniques - not in depth wing chun
1a. He did not learn more wing chun because he left HK.
2. What he did learn helped him
3 And many people came into MA and WC because of him ( not me)
4. His movies were great- much better than martial arts movies before him
and much after him as well
5. His "philosophy" is mostly borrowed aphorisms
6. Living off BL has become a minor industry-for magazines,
publishers and some schools
7 I admire his achievements.
8 I don't pay mush attention to the myths.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

BL can have his own opinion.
1. Beyond the slt stage he knew techniques - not in depth wing chun
1a. He did not learn more wing chun because he left HK.
2. What he did learn helped him
3 And many people came into MA and WC because of him ( not me)
4. His movies were great- much better than martial arts movies before him
and much after him as well
5. His "philosophy" is mostly borrowed aphorisms
6. Living off BL has become a minor industry-for magazines,
publishers and some schools
7 I admire his achievements.
8 I don't pay mush attention to the myths.

1. Beyond SLT (SNT) he knew much more than technique. He understood theory and application. That IS WING CHUN. I could care less if he knew the CK,BT,Dummy etc... He knew how to fight..

2. His "Philosophical Aphorisms" we learned at the University of Washington, where he obtained his bachelor's in philosophy lol.

Apparently sir, you haven't read the collected works.

Bruce Lee was the reason I got into Wing Tsun. But your making it sound like he did nothing himself. "What he learned helped him, His "philosophy" is mostly BORROWED aphorisms, I don't pay much attention to the myths"...

Well less would become myth if you actually read about it.

He knew more about ACTUAL fighting than many o' folks on here. And for that is why I look up to bruce lee. He was a philosophical and theoretical genius. He was just crunching the numbers to make the perfect system. His caculations were far from complete before his untimely death.

People can say what they will about bruce lee, but he was Legit all the way...

Sorry but that "Borrowed aphorisms" and "He didn't know in depth WC" really gets me. Because thats just ignorant as ****, considering you haven't seen all the facts.

Before you start posting stuff, at least check your sources.

 

[Vajramusti]

He knew more about ACTUAL fighting than many o' folks on here. And for that is why I look up to bruce lee. He was a philosophical and theoretical genius. He was just crunching the numbers to make the perfect system. His caculations were far from complete before his untimely death.

People can say what they will about bruce lee, but he was Legit all the way...

Sorry but that "Borrowed aphorisms" and "He didn't know in depth WC" really gets me. Because thats just ignorant as ****, considering you haven't seen all the facts.

Before you start posting stuff, at least check your sources.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have your opinions. That is ok with me. Different universes.

 

[Cyriacus]

1. Beyond SLT (SNT) he knew much more than technique. He understood theory and application. That IS WING CHUN. I could care less if he knew the CK,BT,Dummy etc... He knew how to fight..

So you dont care if he knew WC or not because he knew how to fight? But the question is ABOUT his view of WC, not his ability to fight. Thats a copout answer. If he just didnt like WC, thats fine! But theres a difference between not liking something and claiming that theres something wrong with it.

2. His "Philosophical Aphorisms" we learned at the University of Washington, where he obtained his bachelor's in philosophy lol.

Apparently sir, you haven't read the collected works.

Your point being? Having a degree in philosophy doesnt validate your philosophical views. Look at how contradictory and convoluted philosophers viewpoints are from echelons WAY above Bruce Lees head. Was he philosophical? Yeah. But the value placed on his views is subject to the individual reading them, not some made up universal standard for what makes good philosophy. Did you know that Galileo was an *******?

Bruce Lee was the reason I got into Wing Tsun. But your making it sound like he did nothing himself. "What he learned helped him, His "philosophy" is mostly BORROWED aphorisms, I don't pay much attention to the myths"...

It is true, though. Alot of his 'quotes' are misquoted as being him. The quote in my signature is one of them. Youre trying too hard to defend him. He doesnt need to be perfect in order to inspire you, he just needs to inspire you. If he already does that, why do you need to disprove anything that could diminish his grandeur?

Well less would become myth if you actually read about it.

There are people whove engaged in more physical violence than Bruce Lee did in his entire life who have things to say about it. Not much of it coincides. But then, quite some of it does. Think about that for a second.

He knew more about ACTUAL fighting than many o' folks on here.

So basically what youre saying is that if someone has done more of something than you, that makes them better? You do realize that most of the people who'll break you are just average guys whove made that decision.

And for that is why I look up to bruce lee. He was a philosophical and theoretical genius. He was just crunching the numbers to make the perfect system. His caculations were far from complete before his untimely death.

And youre free to see him that way. But that doesnt mean everyone else has to toe the line.

People can say what they will about bruce lee, but he was Legit all the way...

You keep saying that same thing in different ways.

Sorry but that "Borrowed aphorisms" and "He didn't know in depth WC" really gets me. Because thats just ignorant as ****, considering you haven't seen all the facts.

Before you start posting stuff, at least check your sources.

I for one have. But im not going to go spend money on a person whos work doesnt interest me just so that i can be less 'ignorant as ****'.

 

[Vajramusti]

So you dont care if he knew WC or not because he knew how to fight? But the question is ABOUT his view of WC, not his ability to fight. Thats a copout answer. If he just didnt like WC, thats fine! But theres a difference between not liking something and claiming that theres something wrong with it.



Your point being? Having a degree in philosophy doesnt validate your philosophical views.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sigh. BL did not have a degree in philosphy. He took some classes at UW- basically Cs in philo.

 

[StormShadow]

Well there's a couple facts I like to bring up whenever discussing Bruce Lee. First off; I've read his/John Little's (guy who arranged and published all of Bruce's notes and made them into books etc.) entire catolague. Bruce says many times over that WT/WC is lacking. Now Personally I've never seen bruce lee do Chum-kiu/Biu-Tze/Dummy/Long Pole/Knives or anything to tell me that he had more than a rudimentery introduciton into WT/WC. A very trusted information source (Sifu Alex Richter; City Wing Tsun) says that bruce lee knew more than that however. I don't remember the details, but I'm pretty sure Sifu Alex said something about chum-kiu and or the long pole.

But if we get back to the basics, Tao of Gung-Fu (his philosophical literary works) you can see that BL very much believes in the theories and principals of Wing Chun; He however decides that a different method of achieving those results (I.e. using different techniques). BL also says in many books that we can use whatever technique that feels comfortable to US; HOWEVER he repeatedly says over and over not to kick above the waist, yet you see JKD people all over doing this ALL THE TIME. And before you can say "BUT BRUCE LEE DOES IT TOO! No, no he doesn't. He TRAINED those kicks and rediculous punches to give himself more flexability and maintained that it is always better to be prepared, which is kinda contradictory to his proclomation of "Hacking away the un-essential".

Looking through interviews, and his note's we can plainly see that BL had no interest left in the learning the "complete WT/WC system". He didn't want as we would call "Second hand knowledge".

Bruce Lee wasn't just an Martial Artist; He was (of course a film star), but an AMAZING athlete, philosophical thinker and innovator of more than just martial techniques; But fitness apparatus and workout routines.

He didn't get this knowledge "Second Hand"... He went and TESTED and Proved/Disproved all this on his own! He didn't go learn something from Sifu Yip or James Lee or WSL or William Cheung and take their word for it, he would go against his guys, full battle gear and test it out to see if it was worth its snuff.

So in Reference to the Thread Question; Hell no Bruce Lee wouldn't do WT/WC or be affiliated with it, he would have givin us something as equally amazing but decidely its own.

But just remember, to those people who say "Bruce Lee didn't learn enough to make assumptions/or really know what he was talking about", Yes in fact he did.

Remember back in the day, you didn't learn from just your Instructor, you learned on the street. And Bruce Lee was notorious as a busy body/trouble maker. Being in many street fights, he tested and tested his Wing Chun. He was in a gang "Tigers of Junction Street". And he did study for 4 years before moving to America. And in those Four years he did learn quite the amount. He was the best in his class, easily shutting down anyone in Chi-Sau; So maybe his theoretical knowledge couldn't compare to say Leung Ting, or WSL NOW, but back then; He was the Cream of the Crop. He was the Chan Wah Shun of the 1900's, a very qualified fighter, while the others were more Theory oriented.

Anyways, a brief summary; Bruce Lee would back the theories of WT/WC, but he would not follow the physical techniques as he would have had even MORE time to develop better technques. Don't get me wrong I'm sure he would have emphasized tan/pak/lop more often in JKD, and probably more kicks and dummy techniqes (fat-sau etc), but he would have went his own way.

All the best and thanks for the interesting post!

Jeff

I've recently read something that places BL's outlook on wing chun in a pretty good perspective. We all know the story of how Bruce studied under Yip Man and mostly his senior students. We also know the story of the two versions of wing chun Yip Man learned over his lifetime, the one by Master Chan Wah shun and authentic one taught to him by Leung Bik of the Leung family. Well, the story goes bruce was asked to leave the kwoon since he was beginning to best many of Yip Man's senior students and their was jealousy over he accamin for the arts and natural ability. Yip Man unwillingly had to ask bruce to leave the kwoon but then asked cheung and another senior student to continue teaching bruce. Long story short it leads into the claim by Cheung of Yip Man teaching him the Leung version of wing chun which included the footwork and the concept of central line among other differences.

We know the story goes Cheung was told to not reveal this version of wing chun as he was not in position to relay it to anyone while Yip man was the current owner of the system. It's said he really wanted to teach it to bruce while training bruce in the "modified version" of wing chun but could not. So, instead of speaking it, Cheung would leave clues in training like immediately shutting down BL's attacks, using footwork to step offline and attack his blind side. The story goes further that this frustrated bruce and lead him to the idea that wing chun was lacking. Coupled also with the fight he had chinatown in which he had a hard time with Wong Jack Man using the modified version of wing chun.

So basically, the story says bruce's common sense in the arts told him that something was incomplete about wing chun system as he had learned it. It also says he only had of 60% knowledge of the wing chun system. What is ironic, is the same way in jkd how you're on more of the balls of feet for side stepping, launching quickly is much of the same in "traditional wing chun" and not readily seen in the "modified version" of yip man's wing chun.

While there is obviously much controversy, to me this is plausible. To keep the true handed down version of wing chun in the Leung family while obliging Chan Wah Shun, it is not too far fetched that it was modified for Chan Wah Shun who was naturally pretty skillful in the arts. It also said, after Yip Man learned from Leung Bik, he retruned to his original school and defeated other students with the new knowledge.

If this is a story, this is one hell of a story.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

So you dont care if he knew WC or not because he knew how to fight? But the question is ABOUT his view of WC, not his ability to fight. Thats a copout answer. If he just didnt like WC, thats fine! But theres a difference between not liking something and claiming that theres something wrong with it.



Your point being? Having a degree in philosophy doesnt validate your philosophical views. Look at how contradictory and convoluted philosophers viewpoints are from echelons WAY above Bruce Lees head. Was he philosophical? Yeah. But the value placed on his views is subject to the individual reading them, not some made up universal standard for what makes good philosophy. Did you know that Galileo was an *******?



It is true, though. Alot of his 'quotes' are misquoted as being him. The quote in my signature is one of them. Youre trying too hard to defend him. He doesnt need to be perfect in order to inspire you, he just needs to inspire you. If he already does that, why do you need to disprove anything that could diminish his grandeur?



There are people whove engaged in more physical violence than Bruce Lee did in his entire life who have things to say about it. Not much of it coincides. But then, quite some of it does. Think about that for a second.



So basically what youre saying is that if someone has done more of something than you, that makes them better? You do realize that most of the people who'll break you are just average guys whove made that decision.



And youre free to see him that way. But that doesnt mean everyone else has to toe the line.



You keep saying that same thing in different ways.



I for one have. But im not going to go spend money on a person whos work doesnt interest me just so that i can be less 'ignorant as ****'.

1. I don't see a cop-out.
2.That's like saying a Med. PHD isn't valid for practicing medicine (your a moron).
2a. Your reaching. Philosophy is about looking at the "other end of the spectrem", or "outside the box".
2b. Who are you to determine someone elses stage of enlightenment? A: Nobody
3. Yes he inspires me, from all facets of his life. I wasn't going gung-ho on defending him, I just hate idiots and ignoramious'. And thats what I replied to.
4. I don't think; I act.
5.No- again your reaching. Bruce Lee wasn't just a pioneer in the field of MMA, he was pretty much the architect. So he DID have more experience than anyone, because he was numero uno. And he trained harder, more realisticly than anyone else out there.
5a. I'm well aware of whom is dangerous and whom isn't. I'm a country boy, I've seen some crazy **** from all types of people. Little guys who could tear *** wholesale and big guys who were just teddy bears. (Again, your being obscenely pompous).
6. Wow, your such a defender of the idiots.
7. Thats so people like you might finally get the point. It's called "re-itteration"...

Alright, brief summary:

I try to make points: I'm not a colomnist; Just a regular guy with a point of view. If you don't like my format: take a long walk off a short cliff.

The only reason I said something, was because I was correcting someone, no its not my job, its my right. I don't mean to be so crass and abrasive, but thats just how I am. And when you act like a butt-head, I respond in kind. Again, stop opening your mouth when your being a toolbag, or you have no clue of whats going on. Especially if your not even making sense.