I agree that there is nothing wrong with displaying the Korean flag in TKD or TSD dojangs - or even that it is a necessary display of respect. My question remains, what problem do you have with KJKB? Sorry, guy, but it's as old as TKD and as therefore as "traditional". What is the problem with KJKB? In truth, despite my years in Korean MA, if I someone came to me and said that they had six months to prepare themselves for a life or death H2H struggle no Korean karate system would EVEN be on my list as a recommendation of arts to study - KJKB certainly would be if available. Also, as many have stated, training in self-defence and character development are NOT mutually exclusive - observe the tenor of your posts vs. Mr. Bishop's.MichiganTKD said:
Your premis is that martial artists should respect the country of origin, but is the martial arts school a a place to instill nationalism to a foriegn country? If your answer is yes I feel you should let parents know upfront that that is what you intent to do with their children. I fail to see what is lost by changing the terms to english, reciting a moral pledge, and getting on with training with discussion of possible ramifications. Thats it. Korea, China, and Japan are really nice places to visit but these kids wil someday be at war with, on behalf of, or because of one these countries, and if you would I would like to know what good comes from respecting country of origin by bowing to its flag for American children. Isn't learning the language and customs enough?MichiganTKD said:
Sean
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
What nationalism?
It is simply respect to where the art came from. You are obviously one of those who disdain bowing as "one of them there Oriental customs we Westerners don't need to do." One of the precepts of traditional (there's that word again!) arts is respect-paying homage to those who came before you.
You know, in our Central Studio are many students, including the Instructor, who would be considered blue collar working class. They certainly would never consider ceding power or authority to a foreign nation. They have no problems bowing to the Korean flag in addition to the American flag. They understand they are only paying respect to Tae Kwon Do's home country, not pledging allegiance to Korea.
Aahhh, one of these days you will make some sense.
It is simply respect to where the art came from. You are obviously one of those who disdain bowing as "one of them there Oriental customs we Westerners don't need to do." One of the precepts of traditional (there's that word again!) arts is respect-paying homage to those who came before you.
You know, in our Central Studio are many students, including the Instructor, who would be considered blue collar working class. They certainly would never consider ceding power or authority to a foreign nation. They have no problems bowing to the Korean flag in addition to the American flag. They understand they are only paying respect to Tae Kwon Do's home country, not pledging allegiance to Korea.
Aahhh, one of these days you will make some sense.
So the reason you don't like Kajukenbo, is that it fails to respect its proper countries of origin?
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
No, the reasons I don't like Kajukenbo are that it is a cherry picker martial art and that it only cares about teaching techniques that inflict pain on people.
Anyway, my commenting on KJKB is as justified as a KJKB or judo student going to the Tae Kwon Do forum and responding. The question was "What do you think about KJKB?" I gave my answer. Nobody said you had to like it.
Anyway, my commenting on KJKB is as justified as a KJKB or judo student going to the Tae Kwon Do forum and responding. The question was "What do you think about KJKB?" I gave my answer. Nobody said you had to like it.
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
MichiganTKD said:
Oh, I understand now...you prefer TKD because nobody bothered to examine which techniques work and which don't and because it has techniques that don't inflict any pain...
I've been kicked by TKD guys. Although it wasn't a terrible pain, there was some pain inflicted:deadhorseMichiganTKD said:
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
Trust me, I've been kicked by Tae Kwon Do black belts that can inflict pain. KJKB is only concerned about hurting people. There is a difference between being able to hurt people, and only training for that purpose.
If you train to use a gun and your only concern is being able to shoot people, then put the gun down because you don't need to use one. If you train to use a gun but you also train to have a peaceful mind so that you don't use it unless you have to, then you understand respect for human life.
If you train to use a gun and your only concern is being able to shoot people, then put the gun down because you don't need to use one. If you train to use a gun but you also train to have a peaceful mind so that you don't use it unless you have to, then you understand respect for human life.
The Kai
Master of Arts
Again some one tell me how the language or the customs of the the parent country will make you a better martial artist? How long do we have to adopt another culture before we make the arts our own?? How long did Japan wait before making Te in Karate-How long did Korean wait before making Karate Tae Kwon Do??
AMEN!The Kai said:
The Kai
Master of Arts
Of course KJKB trains people in moral or ethical standpoints-perhaps we should sound more like a fourtune cookie!! But is'nt that a rather immature take on the art? Not just mindless mimicing, but aping to the point of using the language, customs that are as foriegn to you as characters of other stylists?MichiganTKD said:
Lets see: My opinions about Kajukenbo have come from training and teaching it. Now that you have decided to interject gun training, I'll disagree with your opinion on that also, based on 32 years of gun training/instructing as a police officer.MichiganTKD said:
So, I'm still asking what your exposure and experience in Kajukenbo has been to cause you to form such a strong opinion as to what it is or isn't.
I also see by your profile that you are a "nurse's aide". So maybe you can explain more what experience and exposure to "gun training" you have, since you've now given a strong opinion on it.
The Kai
Master of Arts
Lets face it none of use choose the "Finishing School Way of Enlightenment". All of use were drawn to the kicking the punching etc...Obviously it fed a need. To say you don't like a art cuz it works is like saying you don't like an accurate gun.
IMHO I have found a hugh difference (growing wider BTW) between schools that operate out in the suburbs vs those in a more city landscape. If you are in the city you need to what works, and how to make it work. The suburbs are a littler more theoritical and a little more on Philosophy during class time.
Most KJKB/Kenpo came out of urban, tougher areas. TKD is great way to get kids to listen to thier parents, or clean thier room. Is it morality or pandering???
Does a kid understand the morals in a different language or setting-Why not talk to a teeneager thew way he talks?
Does a urban KJKB guy have philosophy?? Sure, he wants to go home alive. The history of ancient dynasties, obscure moral references are great theories. But getting home is the reality
Give unto Caeser that which is Caeser's
Do not read while you are supposed to be practing football, and woinder why your team loses
IMHO I have found a hugh difference (growing wider BTW) between schools that operate out in the suburbs vs those in a more city landscape. If you are in the city you need to what works, and how to make it work. The suburbs are a littler more theoritical and a little more on Philosophy during class time.
Most KJKB/Kenpo came out of urban, tougher areas. TKD is great way to get kids to listen to thier parents, or clean thier room. Is it morality or pandering???
Does a kid understand the morals in a different language or setting-Why not talk to a teeneager thew way he talks?
Does a urban KJKB guy have philosophy?? Sure, he wants to go home alive. The history of ancient dynasties, obscure moral references are great theories. But getting home is the reality
Give unto Caeser that which is Caeser's
Do not read while you are supposed to be practing football, and woinder why your team loses
MichiganTKD said:
First off, this thread is not a discussion about comparing TKD to Kajukenbo. It is a discussion about what people think about Kajukenbo. I, as well as many others here, as curious as to what research you've done on Kajukenbo? Have you visited a school? Have you trained in it? Are you going on what you've heard from others? How can anyone say what the art is or isn't unless they've seen it first hand? We have someone on this forum, Mr. Bishop, who studies Kajukenbo. That being said, I think I'd be more inclined to take the word of someone who studies the art, over someone who may/may not have really looked at the art.
As for "cherry picking" techniques. Are you honestly telling us that TKD, since day 1, when it was first thought of, did not do the very same thing? Every single school in the world that teaches TKD, teaches the exact same things? No variations? No additions? Nothing removed? Everything that the founder of TKD used to create the system is taught by everyone?
Mike
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
MJS said:
Well, I haven't studied KJKB either. But I have been beaten up by more than a few KJKB practitioners.
BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
yes, because lord knows, when you're learning how to make war on one or more other people you dont want to hurt their sensitive little exteriors.MichiganTKD said:
47MartialMan
Master of Arts
Yeah, I wanted to "throw" that flag post in there. How is this related to KJKB? Everything. Because to pay homage to a art does not mean to pay homage to the country of origin. Paying homage to a art can be done by many ways. KJKB has done this in a way of mixing other arts to form one. ALL martial arts have a foundation based on other arts. Thus, they too branch off and create their own. Do you think the Chinese Boxing Club has a Amercian flag in their gym? Do you think the Korean Fencing Club has a French flag in theirs? And so on...
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
MJS said:
Well, Mike:
I have never met a Kajukenbo guy who could not fight. I've met a few Kenpo and Kempo people who could not fight.
Back in the 70's and 80's, there was a Kajukenbo club in the East Bay called "Crazy Dragons". These guys would go to tournaments and fight hard. I lost more matches to these guys than I won. The Crazy Dragons were very aggressive and were pretty willing to throw down in the parking lot outside the tournament if they weren't happy with the way things went. I think they were Gaylord Method, but I'm not sure.
At my Kenpo school, everyone had weekly private lessons (like in the Tracy system). After I got my Black Belt, my instructor was a woman who had trained some Won Hop Kuen Do under Al Dacascos. She was a great Kenpoist and I think her Kaju training helped her quite a bit.
Also had the priviledge of training with a few Kajukenbo practioners who came through our school over the years.
Most recently, one of the guys who trained BJJ up here was a Won Hop Kuen Do Black Belt who used to run his own club up in the Northwest somewhere. He was about 6 inches taller than me, in his 20's, and trained BJJ, or kickboxing, running, weightlifting every day. And there I was...in my early/mid-40's, carry some extra weight, and only exercising 2 or 3 times a week. You can guess the result. :lol:
