what do you believe Kata's are for?, its purpose?

[SenseiBear]

... How can you learn to control an opponent without an opponent?

But that is part of "Training Kata". You take techniques from the form, and practice them against an opponent. back and forth until you can execute against an opponent fighting you in a variety of ways.

And practice each technique against different attacks. Good kata contain a lot of "archetypical movement", movement that have a variety of applications -

Your comparison with the "quick brown fox" was good, because when practiced alone it is that, but for more than just learning to punch & kick, but in these archetypes that teach your body how to move in ways that are applicable to most attacks - And more than that, each one is a small technical manual on specific techniques, attacks, methods of angular motion - to give you lots of techniques to pull out, and train, in a variety of situations, against a resisting opponent.

If you had an instructor in the past who didn't include that stuff in your 'kata-related training' - if they said "do the kata just like this, and that is all you need to know to defend yourself", well, I'm sorry, they were wrong, and they didn't understand kata or how to use it as a training guide and tool.

Do you need kata to be a good fighter or martial artist? No, of course not. Shoot, you can just spend years out on the mat, trying stuff out until you figure out what works - but since other people have spent lifetimes figuring that out, and have devised ways to attempt to teach you, seems like wasted effort.

Is it the only way to transmit techniques? No, the Hapkido guys I know do fine with long strings of numbered responses to specific attacks - but guess what - they also will sometimes do their techniques alone, in the air - it still helps train your body's muscle memory, but is faster, and can be done any where... like kata.

You can say you don't understand the applications - heck, you can say you just don't like them, I have a buddy, after his nidan, decided he wasn't going to do kata anymore. he didn't like them. He had spent 15 years working them, knew maybe 40, and decided he was done. Not that the knew them all, he just never liked learning them, so he stopped. he now trains in styles without them - and is still excellent.

But to say they are worthless is just meaningless, like saying the earth is flat.

 

[Makalakumu]

Kata are encylopedias of martial technique. Every technique and nuance of movement in a Kata has numerous applications. Practicing kata alone is a good workout and a good way to always remember the stuff that you actually train. To actually learn a Kata...and all of the knowledge they contain...it takes years. And this can be daunting once you have memorized a dozen or so Kata. Breaking them all down can literally be something you could do for the rest of your life!

 

[GAB]

Kata are encylopedias of martial technique. Every technique and nuance of movement in a Kata has numerous applications. Practicing kata alone is a good workout and a good way to always remember the stuff that you actually train. To actually learn a Kata...and all of the knowledge they contain...it takes years. And this can be daunting once you have memorized a dozen or so Kata. Breaking them all down can literally be something you could do for the rest of your life!

Hi all,

I would say probably one of the reasons "Choki Motobu" liked the kata he did the most and did it so many times. "Naihanchi".

FMA's have taken 12 strikes dropped to 8 strikes and then to 5 strikes (basic), same with Boxers in the world of the "sweet science".

When hitting a golf ball you use the same swing but shorten your clubs or stand in a different stance. The swing should be the same, at best that is really hard...

Katas are good but not the only solution, especially if you live in a free and not quite as controlled enviroment as the original "karate" came from. (using karate as generic term).

Why do we (some) always feel the controlled situation is the only way to do it?

I think William Chow was very instrumental in techniques, not the kata.

I believe Kata has its place, but without it, does not mean you cannot fight and win. Generally that is the reason for the taking of Martial Arts, but it is not the only reason.

Regards, Gary

 

[FearlessFreep]

but one based on the idea of tedious work to attain mastery, something very "Japanese" in its reasoning.

Not really. The constant repetition of tedious mechanical forms that I'm doing in TKD is *very* similar to what, as a musician, I have had to do over the last two decades to become a good, well rounded musician

It's not very popular amongst most people today, to train for years in rote skills to attain a level of excellence, but it's not particularly an Eastern idea, either

 

[GAB]

but one based on the idea of tedious work to attain mastery, something very "Japanese" in its reasoning.

Not really. The constant repetition of tedious mechanical forms that I'm doing in TKD is *very* similar to what, as a musician, I have had to do over the last two decades to become a good, well rounded musician

It's not very popular amongst most people today, to train for years in rote skills to attain a level of excellence, but it's not particularly an Eastern idea, either

Hi all,

Webster said, "by rote=by memory without thought of the meaning, by a fixed procedure".

Not something I want to use all the time, or not to think about.

I will say, some of the time, but not all the time...

I will use this one more time, "I think, therefore I am"...

Sympathetic and para sympathetic, reflex and kneejerk, comes to mind...

Regards, Gary

 

[Autocrat]

Hi folks....

At last.. something on the net about kat's thats informative and correct, personal without being rude... great.

firstly, I'll make it clear... I utterly despise KATA. I find that the affect they have on people is usally wrong, it genereates the wrong image to most people, conveys the wrong information, and it taken literally by so many. So I hate kata.

I do not hate kata for themselves. They were a tool/method for programing the body in new ways, to get the body to respond to unusual stimuli, ingrain techniques into the mind and condition the limbs and organs for the uncommon effort and activity. Kata are an excercise for the body and brain, teaching us the timings of movement, breathing and focus.

Instead, people took them to mean something more. They thought Kata was karate... that knowing a kata was knowing karate.... that by being able to perform a kata meant they they could do karate.... and it has little to do with it!

Kata can be many things... be it a wrote method of performing set actions, (including the tea ceremony!), singularly or paired/grouped, simply shifting through stances, blocks, atemi, uchi, tsuki, geriempi or heeza, breathing etc....or any other set method performed in a particular order wit hthe aim of getting the body and brain conjoined so it offers conditioning both physically and mentally.... then it's kata!

If that sort of thing was understood by all, and you didn't have flaming clubs springing up that grant you a black belt in a year just for ding a few simple stikes and learning a host of kata, (one a month), then things would be great... instead you have people around the world who learn a couple of kata, and go "I know Karate"... hell, I've been doing karate since I was 4 years old, and still practice today.. I do not know karate.. I do not know my katas.... but I do practice both!

I think that last part summed it up... practice - not know!

OK, OK, kata don't suck, it's people in general nothing personal.. you folk have really impressed me with the depth of feeling and knowledge on kata... so your off the "people suck" list LOL)

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I think one very important value of kata is that they teach the student how to make smooth transitions. I think most of the "pro" kata people made some excellent points so I won't repeat them. However, for me, Kata also work as a way of relieving tension. Also, If I'm not up to practicing one night, I may just say to myself, well, do ONE form. Just one. After doing it, I have to try it again, then maybe another. Before I know it I've had a decent practice I would not otherwise have had. Also, so many concentrate strictly on the combative aspects of the MA and forget that it has many other lessons to teach as well. I know that my balance in other areas of life, incluiding physicial coordination and stamina, is better for form practice.

 

[YouAgain]

Check out this Article The Theory & Application of Tradition Kata

 

[MCG]

We are taught katas are encyclopedias of techniques. Need to get away from 5 people circled around you? We have a kata that tells you how. Wanna dislocate a person's shooulder and drag them around? Got that. You have to be able to tear the kata apart to see what you are really doing. I don't know how long it takes to learn a whole kata, if they taught everything in a kata it would take years, its spread out. I am still finding stuff in our first white belt kata that I didn't know was there.

 

[YouAgain]

Need to get away from 5 people circled around you? We have a kata that tells you how.

I shore as hell would love to learn that one, is it called the Run Forest, run kata?

 

[Gene Williams]

I don't look at kata as "encyclopedia of technique." You should try to get away from "technique" oriented karate and view it a little more organically. Kata develop a lot of fundamentals, they build power and focus and, over time, they build a strong spirit. Many things are incorporated into kata, but it takes years of doing them to bring it all out. I am speaking from the perspective of a traditional Shito-ryu practitioner, so I am referring to the traditional kata practiced in the traditional way. It is unfortunate that, today, students have been allowed to become impatient and have not been properly taught how to understand and practice the kata.

 

[MCG]

I agree that katas build fundamentals, power, focus ect. But haven't you ever been sparring or doing self defence and remembered something from a kata you can use? Like, being surrounded, Shi Ho Hi tells me how to get out. I need to defend myself with 'chucks from 2 people (one on each side) Kinon Kata Nidon teaches me how. There are so much to katas that some people don't realize. In our system we build on the katas thru the ranks. How I do a kata isn't how a Shihan will do it because he knows the differences I haven't been taught yet. Because most people now aren't going to spend 3 or 7 years learning 1 kata before they can move to the next like Chitose, and all others before us did.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I agree that katas build fundamentals, power, focus ect. But haven't you ever been sparring or doing self defence and remembered something from a kata you can use? Like, being surrounded, Shi Ho Hi tells me how to get out. I need to defend myself with 'chucks from 2 people (one on each side) Kinon Kata Nidon teaches me how. There are so much to katas that some people don't realize. In our system we build on the katas thru the ranks. How I do a kata isn't how a Shihan will do it because he knows the differences I haven't been taught yet. Because most people now aren't going to spend 3 or 7 years learning 1 kata before they can move to the next like Chitose, and all others before us did.

you might spend a day or 2 memorizing the kata......but if you stick with it, you will definitely spend the next 3 to 7 years learning it.

 

[Gene Williams]

It isn't even 3-7 years, it is your whole life. You learn the kata as they are required or taught, then you always do them. They are not just milestones you pass by on a one way trip. I've been in karate for 35 years and I still do the Pinan every time I work out. They still teach me things and if you don't think high dan can screw up basic kata, you're wrong. Karate should go with you through your whole life, and the kata are what carry you there.

 

[MCG]

I agree with you, what I tried to say, I think it was Chitose that studied Seisan for about 7 years before his instructor would teach him another kata. But, I'm told people today want to see progress faster. Same as why they started colored belts. Where the Japanese plan 20 years from now, we want it today. Is this true? Yes, in our dojo we are always building on katas, how I do seisan, how shihan does seisan, and how our 8th dan Sensei does seisan are different. Not because anybody is wrong, but because I know they know they know so much more about the kata. There have been times I've asked sensei about a kata because I have been show more than one way to do it and he's told me both ways are correct, just one way was at a higher rank.

 

[Gene Williams]

I think that kata are probably taught a little faster today than even when I started back in the late sixties/early seventies. When I was promoted to shodan by Higioshi, I knew the 5 Pinan, Naihanchi Shodan, Bassai Dai, Wansu and Kushanku. That was four years worth. Now, my shodan students will know about 15 kata in the same amount of time. Teaching methods have changed some, training is not as rough as it was in Okinawa in the old days, and the entire kata is usually taught before any applications are taught. When I learned, I was taught the applications as I learned the kata and could not move to the next part of the kata until I could show the applications for the parts I knew. I don't teach that way and I don't think many others do, either.

 

[TonyU]

Gene, that's not a bad way of teaching IMO. We still teach somewhat that way. Also if I ever open my school I would like to incorporate that method also. That is teach a kata and it's applications simoultaneously.

 

[Gene Williams]

I've done it, but I guess it is just a personality thing that I like to see them know the whole kata first, then bunkai. I build some basic bunkai into partner work and fundamentals, but when I teach someone a new kata, I usually just teach the kata. Now, with seniors, I'll throw in a bunkai if they are scratching their heads about a move or if I just want to show off Sometimes seeing the bunkai will help them understand how the move is done in the kata.

 

[TonyU]

Gene, I think we're pretty much on the same boat. I try not to get caught up in teaching too much bunkai as it will confuse the student, especialy a begginer. In that sense I might show a bunkai, but not teach it. You understand what I mean? Or I've geared a class towars strictly self defense only, no kata (God forbid!) then demonstrated where in the katas were the moves.
A number of years ago my karate sensei asked me to teach Police Defensive Tactics at a weekend training camp we had. Throughout the class I showed where in the katas they could find the techniques.
Now it's a moot point since I haven't taught karate in a number of years anyway.

 

[Gene Williams]

Yeah, we're on the same boat. Are you still going to class? I hope you are still working out yourself. I've turned my dojo over to my senior student, a godan. I got burned out for a while with teaching, but now the rec dept. in the next county wants me to start a class. It might be fun to have a whole class full of beginners again. I was so top heavy with yondan and godan that I got spoiled. A couple moved off and are teaching in other cities. I do clinics for them sometimes. But, the dojo now has a bunch of dan and only 3 or 4 mudansha. I spoiled my seniors by not kicking them out and making them teach somewhere.