What do u think are the most effective styles/techniques out there for the average man?

[K-man]

Btw i think $900 is also to much for a year of training, means you ask $75 a month (if you train 12 months a year), means €59, because i live in Holland, if you asked that here you would be the most expensive Krav Maga school in Holland, so yes you are VERY overpriced. And in my opinion for some very basic training, not worth the money.

Most Krav schools here ask €40 - €45 a month (= about $50)

Well my Aikido lessons at $2500 a year must be way over the top!

 

[Dylan9d]

You can't really compare though unless you know how many hours training you are paying for, a year could be one evening a month or every evening. it also depends on the economy of the country concerned.

In Holland it's €40 for 4 times a week training.

When i taught Silat-Pukulan i asked €20 a month to the small group i had and that covered the rent of the community center we trained in.

And yes $2500 a year is just a shakedown sorry but i can't understand how people can ask such prices.

 

[K-man]

In Holland it's €40 for 4 times a week training.

When i taught Silat-Pukulan i asked €20 a month to the small group i had and that covered the rent of the community center we trained in.

And yes $2500 a year is just a shakedown sorry but i can't understand how people can ask such prices.

Perhaps you get what you pay for. :hmm:

 

[Dylan9d]

Perhaps you get what you pay for. :hmm:

I had lessons from some awesome 1st generation Indo's here, all very skilled teachers and somehow none asked such a huge amount of money, they all taught me their lessons for free. I also believe opinions are there to be voiced, so mine stays the same, shakedown :idunno:

 

[Tez3]

Btw i think $900 is also to much for a year of training, means you ask $75 a month (if you train 12 months a year), means €59, because i live in Holland, if you asked that here you would be the most expensive Krav Maga school in Holland, so yes you are VERY overpriced. And in my opinion for some very basic training, not worth the money.

Most Krav schools here ask €40 - €45 a month (= about $50)

75 Australian dollars is £41 or 52 Euros. Very little in fact. 40 Euros are approx. $57 A$

 

[tshadowchaser]

Darn people your making me wonder why I have never had to pay for a lesson in the last 35 or so years of my 40+ years of training.
school in my area charge from 5o$ US to 125$ US a month no matter what school they are

 

[Hanzou]

Okay, let's get back to this…

Hanzou, you wanted to know exactly what was wrong in the following? Alrighty, then…

Since when is it not?!? Do you think they're trying to pin ribbons on each other? Playing an enthusiastic game of "tag"?

When someone gets shot by someone else, they tend to say that the other guy was shot, not beaten down in a fight.

Do you think that a firefight is limited to battlefields only?

Why would I think that? I'm simply saying that someone shooting a gun at you isn't fighting you. They're shooting at you.

Nothing in there about "samurai"… hmm… but, just in case that's what you thought you were saying, then you really don't know how the vast, vast majority of "samurai arts" came to be founded.

I mentioned that the Martial Arts originated from the battlefield. You said that was nonsense, and I pointed out the Samurai arts to point out how your statement was wrong.

And, again, you're fairly off base in pretty much all counts there… the average man can't be a soldier?

When the average man becomes a soldier, he's not an average man anymore.

And, even harder for you to hear, martial arts are based around fighting? And have always been? Gotta tell you… that's really not the case. And, even more importantly, for those arts that are more combatively (and practically) based, it really, really, really depends on the context of the system, and what type of combat they were geared towards.

Feel free to list the martial arts that don't revolve around fighting.

You're making some rather big assumptions here… sure, boxing gets you used to hitting and being hit… do you really, genuinely think that that's unique to boxing? Or even to sporting systems? And, for the record, what you're talking about it training methodologies, which is a part of the style, but not the whole story by any stretch of the imagination… so your idea of "its the style" is a bit out as well… it's certain aspects of the style, dependant on the context and application.

Where did I say that taking a hit was unique to boxing?

Really? So you do BJJ, but not sports based, and in another post, not reality based either? So it's what, callisthenics?

Calisthenics is definitely part of it.

 

[Cirdan]

Fighting is fighting but not what I don`t like to call fighting.

mmmh love me fighting.

 

[EddieCyrax]

I do not know Chris Parker personally, but if his martial arts skills are as good as his thread sparring skills, he is a beast.

You better be very well educated and read to enter his domain.

Perhaps if one listened more than they spoke they could learn something.

I continue to learn from his knowledge.

Chris, it is always educational and entertaining.....Thanks, Eddie

 

[Chris Parker]

When someone gets shot by someone else, they tend to say that the other guy was shot, not beaten down in a fight.

Then you don't have much of a grasp of what you're talking about when you bring up "fighting". And you are completely out of your depth in discussing anything aside from MMA training ideas and concepts. Perhaps it's time you realised that your corner of "martial arts"/"fighting" is neither representative of the vast majority, nor particularly relevant to most of it… and open yourself up to the idea that other understandings, perspectives, and insights can help you improve your own. Of course, if you just want to live in your bubble, that's fine… but expect to be called on the lunacy you often come up with, as it's based on no actual knowledge at all.

Why would I think that? I'm simply saying that someone shooting a gun at you isn't fighting you. They're shooting at you.

Yeah… see above.

I mentioned that the Martial Arts originated from the battlefield. You said that was nonsense, and I pointed out the Samurai arts to point out how your statement was wrong.

Ha, that's what you thought you were doing? Really? So, in order to argue against me saying that your ideas weren't based in reality, you say something even more removed from reality, and think that proved me wrong? Dude, you do realise that the first thing I thought of was samurai arts when you started talking old historical arts… it's my immediate frame of reference… and you, my friend, are absolutely nowhere near able to converse with me on that level, let alone think you can correct me. I mean… you're arguing with me over samurai history? Really?

God, I needed that laugh…

When the average man becomes a soldier, he's not an average man anymore.

Lovely… completely rubbish, of course, but lovely.

Mate, they're still "average men" (and women)… that's a great part of the strength… it's normal, average, everyday people who volunteer to sign up… who choose to make the sacrifice they do… but they don't suddenly become uber-humans… they have a particular training, but I gotta say… jingoistic hyperbole and rhetoric aside (and look, I get that&#8230, it's simply not true. Perhaps you might want to take a closer look at reality before you decide to continue along this path, yeah?

Feel free to list the martial arts that don't revolve around fighting.

Go back to my list (I note you've ignored my question about them&#8230, and see if you can spot them… again, I'll wait.

Where did I say that taking a hit was unique to boxing?

There was the implication that boxing (and only boxing-style training methodologies) have that benefit. And that simply showed a complete ignorance of a huge portion of other systems, training methods, and so on.

Calisthenics is definitely part of it.

Cute. Want to try actually answering the question now? If you don't train for sport, and don't train for reality application, what are you training for?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Well my Aikido lessons at $2500 a year must be way over the top!

For a price like that I had better be able to fly after taking the lessons!

 

[K-man]

For a price like that I had better be able to fly after taking the lessons!

I can!

 

[Tez3]

Then you don't have much of a grasp of what you're talking about when you bring up "fighting". And you are completely out of your depth in discussing anything aside from MMA training ideas and concepts. Perhaps it's time you realised that your corner of "martial arts"/"fighting" is neither representative of the vast majority, nor particularly relevant to most of it… and open yourself up to the idea that other understandings, perspectives, and insights can help you improve your own. Of course, if you just want to live in your bubble, that's fine… but expect to be called on the lunacy you often come up with, as it's based on no actual knowledge at all.

I wouldn't be so sure about the MMA ideas and concepts either tbh.



Yeah… see above.



Ha, that's what you thought you were doing? Really? So, in order to argue against me saying that your ideas weren't based in reality, you say something even more removed from reality, and think that proved me wrong? Dude, you do realise that the first thing I thought of was samurai arts when you started talking old historical arts… it's my immediate frame of reference… and you, my friend, are absolutely nowhere near able to converse with me on that level, let alone think you can correct me. I mean… you're arguing with me over samurai history? Really?

God, I needed that laugh…



Lovely… completely rubbish, of course, but lovely.

Mate, they're still "average men" (and women)… that's a great part of the strength… it's normal, average, everyday people who volunteer to sign up… who choose to make the sacrifice they do… but they don't suddenly become uber-humans… they have a particular training, but I gotta say… jingoistic hyperbole and rhetoric aside (and look, I get that&#8230, it's simply not true. Perhaps you might want to take a closer look at reality before you decide to continue along this path, yeah?

They are totally normal trust me, if they weren't I wouldn't have had a career for the last 20 odd years but I like the idea that when I was in the military I was superhuman roflmao.



Go back to my list (I note you've ignored my question about them&#8230, and see if you can spot them… again, I'll wait.



There was the implication that boxing (and only boxing-style training methodologies) have that benefit. And that simply showed a complete ignorance of a huge portion of other systems, training methods, and so on.



Cute. Want to try actually answering the question now? If you don't train for sport, and don't train for reality application, what are you training for?

Well said Chris, as always.

 

[Hanzou]

Then you don't have much of a grasp of what you're talking about when you bring up "fighting". And you are completely out of your depth in discussing anything aside from MMA training ideas and concepts. Perhaps it's time you realised that your corner of "martial arts"/"fighting" is neither representative of the vast majority, nor particularly relevant to most of it… and open yourself up to the idea that other understandings, perspectives, and insights can help you improve your own. Of course, if you just want to live in your bubble, that's fine… but expect to be called on the lunacy you often come up with, as it's based on no actual knowledge at all.

I do believe that all of this began because I said that a natural fighter is better at martial arts than someone who isn't a fighter, and the martial arts that makes someone a better fighter are the more effective arts for the average man.

I'm still trying to figure out how your tangent on guns relates to any of that.

Yeah… see above.

And yeah, like I said, I don't consider someone shooting a gun at you to be fighting you. They're simply shooting at you.

Ha, that's what you thought you were doing? Really? So, in order to argue against me saying that your ideas weren't based in reality, you say something even more removed from reality, and think that proved me wrong? Dude, you do realise that the first thing I thought of was samurai arts when you started talking old historical arts… it's my immediate frame of reference… and you, my friend, are absolutely nowhere near able to converse with me on that level, let alone think you can correct me. I mean… you're arguing with me over samurai history? Really?

Which is ironic because your expertise in old Japanese arts is exactly why I mentioned the samurai arts, and found your comment that martial arts didn't originate from battlefield arts so bizarre.

However in the end, the point is that martial arts revolve around fighting, and have always revolved around fighting.

Lovely… completely rubbish, of course, but lovely.

Mate, they're still "average men" (and women)… that's a great part of the strength… it's normal, average, everyday people who volunteer to sign up… who choose to make the sacrifice they do… but they don't suddenly become uber-humans… they have a particular training, but I gotta say… jingoistic hyperbole and rhetoric aside (and look, I get that…), it's simply not true. Perhaps you might want to take a closer look at reality before you decide to continue along this path, yeah?

Again, they're average when they sign up. A soldier is most certainly not an average person. They're training and experiences are certainly not what the average person experiences.

Go back to my list (I note you've ignored my question about them…), and see if you can spot them… again, I'll wait.

Why not simply list them since you clearly know so much about them?

There was the implication that boxing (and only boxing-style training methodologies) have that benefit. And that simply showed a complete ignorance of a huge portion of other systems, training methods, and so on.

The only implication was in your mind. Again, boxing was simply an example. Nowhere did I say that boxing is the only methodology where you give and take hits.

You seem to be assuming quite a bit in this thread.

Cute. Want to try actually answering the question now? If you don't train for sport, and don't train for reality application, what are you training for?

I said that I don't desire my training to resemble RBSD training, which is akin to Systema and Krav with the hair pulling, groin strikes, scratching, and other fun stuff. I train for physical fitness and self defense, however, our self defense doesn't go quite as overboard as you see in RBSD systems.

 

[Chris Parker]

I'll give you one more chance here.

I do believe that all of this began because I said that a natural fighter is better at martial arts than someone who isn't a fighter, and the martial arts that makes someone a better fighter are the more effective arts for the average man.

This came up because you were positing "fighting skill" and "fighting" as a single context, and I challenged you on that by attempting to grow your understanding, highlighting that what is a good "fighting skill" in one context isn't necessarily a good one in another form of fighting/conflict/combat/violence.

I'm still trying to figure out how your tangent on guns relates to any of that.

It was a demonstration of a form of "fighting" which was so far removed in terms of relevant, practical skill sets to what you were presenting as universal.

And yeah, like I said, I don't consider someone shooting a gun at you to be fighting you. They're simply shooting at you.

You really need to come to a broader understanding… especially if you think you're training for self defence… your mentality is so damn limited, if these posts are anything to go by, that I'd say you don't have much understanding of what it even is.

Which is ironic because your expertise in old Japanese arts is exactly why I mentioned the samurai arts, and found your comment that martial arts didn't originate from battlefield arts so bizarre.

I'm sorry, "ironic"?!? How so? You made incorrect generalisations, I corrected it. You said that you were referring to "samurai arts", and I pointed out that that just confirmed that you were wrong then… and you think it's ironic that you're not understanding what I'm saying (as, frankly, you don't have the education in the subject)? Huh?

Your original comment was that someone was such a "bad-***" on the battlefield that they then either "chose or were forced (?!?!) to teach others"… I told you that was incorrect… as it is… I asked you to give me an example of an art that fits your description… as I am familiar with the histories of quite a number (dozens, literally) of these systems, and none of them are what you describe… and you think it's bizarre that I'm commenting on how things actually were because it doesn't match the way you imagine things maybe happened?!?

Here's a clue. Realize that you don't know what the reality is here, and listen. Understand that, when I say that you're not correct, you're not correct. Don't argue back… and then, when you ask for clarification, I might provide it. Right now, I've actually given you the information… but I've allowed you to follow the trail. You haven't done so.

However in the end, the point is that martial arts revolve around fighting, and have always revolved around fighting.

Again, nope. And for those that do have something along those lines as part of their focus, it is always highly context dependant. 64th time now… fighting ain't just fighting...

Again, they're average when they sign up. A soldier is most certainly not an average person. They're training and experiences are certainly not what the average person experiences.

And, again, lovely… but completely wrong. Love that you have this romantic image, but it's not doing you any favours in an argument here.

Why not simply list them since you clearly know so much about them?

I already did… have you picked out which is which yet?

The only implication was in your mind. Again, boxing was simply an example. Nowhere did I say that boxing is the only methodology where you give and take hits.

"For example, boxing is ​better than many other MAs because it actually teaches you have to take a punch, and how to give a punch. It makes you a better fighter overall, and that's why it's so effective". Post #44.

And, again, I asked you if you thought that boxing, and sporting systems were the only way such training could be found. That was followed by my referencing of "boxing (and boxing-style training)"… so… care to read a little more carefully?

You seem to be assuming quite a bit in this thread.

Really? So you weren't singling boxing out as having a training methodology not found in "many other MA's"?

I said that I don't desire my training to resemble RBSD training, which is akin to Systema and Krav with the hair pulling, groin strikes, scratching, and other fun stuff. I train for physical fitness and self defense, however, our self defense doesn't go quite as overboard as you see in RBSD systems.

What exactly do you think RBSD actually is…?

 

[Tez3]

Geoff Thompson Interview | On Guard Combat Systems

Words from one of the very best.