What are some differences between Karate and Taekwondo?

[Earl Weiss]

The date on the Chung Do Kwan piece bellow is incorrect. Chung Do Kwan was opened in 1944, not 1945. Gen. Choi was a student of Grandmaster Won Kuk LEE. This makes it appear as if they were contemporaries. That was not their relationship. They were master & student.

Won Kuk Lee may have been Senior to General Choi and they certainly had interaction. What is the source for the statement that General Choi was ever a student of GM Won Kuk Lee?

 

[Earl Weiss]

And even if this unproven claim were true, being the person to suggest a name which is eventually selected by a committee is a long way from being "the founder."

Un proven , perhaps but supported by noteables. i.e. Nam Tae Hi.

Further , General Choi did more than submit the name,
He tirelessly fought for adoption of the name opposed by many and removed and then reinstated due to his efforts. Of course, once it became popular they were more than happy to jump on the band wagon (No different than callng it "Korean Karate" to jump on that bandwagon)
. What he did and what the KKW copied decades later after originally accepting any number of systems was what others such as Kano, Funakoshi, Ueshiba etc. did was to codify a single system to be taught on a wide scale. He also developed and dispatched demo teams and instructors and recruited others throughout the world and as a result TKD as a single system was taught in dozens of countries prior to 1974 which might not seem like much due to the ease of communication, and travel we enjoy today. Also published first Texts to use the name.

Until politicised after 1974 with the SK influence and financial backing he enjoyed now backing the KKW there is no single individual who came anywhere close to what General Choi did to spread TKD.

 

[Earl Weiss]

General Choi was not the founder of TKD. He was the founder of the Oh Do Kwan and the ITF. Not Taekwondo.

An opinion shared by those who view TKD thru the KKW lens of communal development so as to not allow any individual too much power. Suffice it to say I reject your reality and substitute my own which began prior to 1974 when there was no KKW or anyone else who could lay claim to being the head of promoting, spreading and deveolping a system called TKD. I do not accept that any Korean kicking and punching before 1955 to be able to claim the TKD Moniker. Forrunners of TKD - Yes. TKD - No.

 

[Tez3]

Bet the OP wishes he hadn't posted now.

 

[TrueJim]

...prior to 1974 when there was no KKW or anyone else who could lay claim to being the head of promoting, spreading and deveolping a system called TKD...

I have enormous respect for General Choi and agree with many of your points...Choi was a driving force -- arguably THE driving force -- in the development and adoption of taekwondo worldwide.

I'll play Devil's Advocate on the date though. When Choi returned from Malaysia in 1965 he successfully lobbied the KTA to rename themselves once more to Korea Taekwondo Association, and from 1965 onward that name stuck. From what I've read, the KTA was a driving force in kwan unification (arguably WAY too heavy-handed even, in their government-sanctioned zeal for unification)...so shouldn't your suggested date be 1965 rather than 1974?

In other words, starting in 1965 there was an organization claiming to be the head of promoting, spreading, and developing a system called taekwondo...that organization was the KTA. Then a year later, Choi founded the ITF.

 

[Tez3]

And the differences between karate and TKD are.......................................................

 

[Earl Weiss]

....
I'll play Devil's Advocate on the date though. When Choi returned from Malaysia in 1965 he successfully lobbied the KTA to rename themselves once more to Korea Taekwondo Association, and from 1965 onward that name stuck. From what I've read, the KTA was a driving force in kwan unification (arguably WAY too heavy-handed even, in their government-sanctioned zeal for unification)...so shouldn't your suggested date be 1965 rather than 1974?

In other words, starting in 1965 there was an organization claiming to be the head of promoting, spreading, and developing a system called taekwondo...that organization was the KTA. Then a year later, Choi founded the ITF.

Again, it can be a matter of perspective. The "Communal Effort" idea was promoted by the KKW which of course was founded in 1974.

IMO without General Choi battling for the name TKD as you point out for at least 10 years, as well as developing, dispatching, and recruiting instructors we all might be doing an art with a different name now. Heavy handed? No doubt.. General's expect orders be obeyed.

 

[TrueJim]

Heavy handed? No doubt.. General's expect orders be obeyed.

He was probably heavy-handed too. I was referring to the KTA's heavy-handedness once Choi left the KTA. I.e., working to shut-down any dojang in Korea that didn't fall in line with the KTA.

 

[NinjaChristian]

All kicks, by the way, are done off both legs and also in both rear and forward stance.

I'll give a list and you can tick off what you know/do lol.
Maegeri Front kick
Mawashigeri round kick
Yokogeri side
Ushirogeri back
Kingeri groin
Fumikomi stamping kick
Hizageri knee kick
ushiro Kingei backward groin kick
Soto Mawashigeri outward groin kick
Mikazukigeri crescent kick
Soto Mikazukigeri outward crescent kick
Ushiro Mawashigeri back round kick
Otoshigeri dropping kick

We also do an inverse crescent kick which is like a figure four, I can't describe it very well though, I find showing much easier.

Tobigeri are jumping kicks, all of the above can be done jumping, some can also be done in jumping scissors style too. sidekick can be done jumping or 'flying. Kicks are often combined with hand/arm strikes.

All of these are in TKD. does Wado have bituro chagi(twisting kick)? Every kick that I know of (besides groin and stamping for aerial) in taekwondo can be performed while jumping, spinning, jumping and spinning, and some while flying. Does Wado have as many jumping kicks?

 

[WaterGal]

I think the difference may be in the execution of them, sometimes too though the names may confuse. We have two types of front kick, a 'push' kick and a 'snap' kick. The 'axe' kick is a straight up and down kick ( the knee is up, bent, goes up then down, a clumsy description sorry) whereas I believe TKD does it as a crescent kick type? the front kick for example too can be done as a straight kick either off the back or front leg, a straight up and down jump kick and as a scissors jump kick either on the spot or travelling. Most kicks can be spinning kicks too.
Do you have stamping kick because I haven't seen them in TKD though that doesn't mean a lot or the straight groin kick, instep kick to the testicles? ( no surprise you probably don't see that a lot lol)

Keep in mind, I did my research by looking up each Japanese kick name on Youtube and watching one of the top videos in the results. And I know "karate" isn't one monolithic thing, so it's possible that a kick may be done one way in your style of karate and another in the video I watched. But from what I saw, I think we have a lot of the same kicks, just sometimes called or categorized in different ways.

Like, I would consider "front kick" to include both the "snapping" front kick with the ball of the foot and also a "groin front kick" which is where you kick upwards and hit with the instep, like one of your groin kicks. And I would consider there to be three types of ax kick - a "straight ax" that goes just straight up and down in the same spot, and an "inside ax" and "outside ax" which do make a crescent shape on the way up (to get around the target) and then come straight down. ETA: Which then is different from a crescent kick, which hits with the side of the foot, while your leg is around the top of the crescent shape.

And then, yeah, the kicks can generally all be done with the back leg, front leg, jumping, turning, etc too.

 

[Tez3]

All of these are in TKD. does Wado have bituro chagi(twisting kick)? Every kick that I know of (besides groin and stamping for aerial) in taekwondo can be performed while jumping, spinning, jumping and spinning, and some while flying. Does Wado have as many jumping kicks?

I'm having trouble with this one because I've tried looking on YouTube but seem to get different kicks, one of which is kicking a person behind you with what looks like a very high front kick that hits the person behind with the ball of the foot, does that sound right? There is another which looks like Wado's inverse crescent kick, and also a front kick. It's intriguing.

All the kicks in Wado can be used as a jumping kick ( by younger people lol my days of jumping kicks have gone, I now rely on a thumping good low kick to the thigh, I suspect it will be to the calf soon then the ankle or I'll be reduced to sparring toddlers ) I could do a good jumping side kick but never a flying side kick, I used to say it was too flashy to actually use but was always secretly jealous of those who could do it, that and the double front kick.

 

[Tez3]

Keep in mind, I did my research by looking up each Japanese kick name on Youtube and watching one of the top videos in the results. And I know "karate" isn't one monolithic thing, so it's possible that a kick may be done one way in your style of karate and another in the video I watched. But from what I saw, I think we have a lot of the same kicks, just sometimes called or categorized in different ways.

Like, I would consider "front kick" to include both the "snapping" front kick with the ball of the foot and also a "groin front kick" which is where you kick upwards and hit with the instep, like one of your groin kicks. And I would consider there to be three types of ax kick - a "straight ax" that goes just straight up and down in the same spot, and an "inside ax" and "outside ax" which do make a crescent shape on the way up (to get around the target) and then come straight down. ETA: Which then is different from a crescent kick, which hits with the side of the foot, while your leg is around the top of the crescent shape.

And then, yeah, the kicks can generally all be done with the back leg, front leg, jumping, turning, etc too.

It's fascinating isn't it? I wish we were all in a gym where we could all demonstrate and compare, it would be great fun. I'm hoping karateka from other styles will chip in too with what they do.

Would you say that there are different ways of doing the TKD techniques? Different schools/classes doing it differently?

 

[jks9199]

What are some of the differences between karate and taekwondo...

Well, it all depends on who you ask.

Some folks are going to tell you that taekwondo is Shotokan karate, with a dash of Korean sauce. Others are going to tell you that taekwondo reflects historical, indigenous kick fighting from rural Korea, with a dash of Japanese karate.

TKD certainly has a much stronger focus on kicking than most styles of karate. And they've developed some different emphasis points for developing power. At the same time, there are certainly lots of elements that are shared. A karateka is probably not going to feel completely lost in a TKD class -- and a taekwondoin in a karate class won't be completely at sea. But neither will be completely comfortable, either.

On a practical basis, at least in my experience, TKD in the DC/VA/MD area is much more commercialized and business oriented. Most TKD programs feature lots of day care programs, leader "teams", etc. while most (NOT ALL!) karate programs are run in a non-commercial, club based set up. But, your mileage may vary.

 

[chrispillertkd]

• Shitō-ryū - Kwe Byung Yoon

Yoon, Kwe-Byung knew both Shudokan and Shito Ryu.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

While I am inclined to believe General Choi had some karate training, that Wikipedia entry seems a little too enthusiastic, claiming that he studied directly with Funakoshi Sensei.

And that's a claim that Gen. Choi himself does NOT make. He first learned karate in Japan under the instruction of another Korean national. He did say in an interview with him I read that he had the opportunity to train at the Shotokan once in 1942 with Funakoshi, but not that he was a direct student. He taught karate along with Yoon, Byung-In until GM Yoon returned to Korea and opened the YMCA Kwon Bup Bu (forerunner of both the Chang Moo Kwan and Kang Duk Won).

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

The date on the Chung Do Kwan piece bellow is incorrect. Chung Do Kwan was opened in 1944, not 1945. Gen. Choi was a student of Grandmaster Won Kuk LEE. This makes it appear as if they were contemporaries. That was not their relationship. They were master & student.

I would be interested in seeing evidence that Gen. Choi was a student of GM Lee, Won Kuk's. While I Have heard that before I have never seen any proof apart from a picture of them together sitting at a table. None of Gen. Choi's students from the Oh Do Kwan have ever stated this, as far as I know.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

The name "taekwondo" was supported by a majority of the people working towards unification. The records do not show who actually suggested the name (or even if it was suggested by a single person).

Bit more complicated than that.

"Taekwon-Do" was used exclusively by the Oh Do Kwan and Chung Do Kwan starting in 1955. I believe April 11, 1955 is the date Gen. Choi actually had his soldiers begin using the term for the martial art he was teaching them. The other Kwans did not begin using the name Taekwon-Do for several years. In fact, many of the second generation Kwan Jang opposed using it.

Gen. Choi formed the Korea Taekwon-Do Association in 1959 but he left Korea in '62 to be ambassador to Malaysia. While he was there the second generation Kwan Jangs (Gen. Choi was really the only first generation Kwan Jang to be involved in the unification movement - there might have been one other if you count GM Hwang, Ki but he eventually distanced himself from the effort) began using the term Tae Soo Do to describe the martial art they were teaching. While the Oh Do Kwan continued to use Taekwon-Do I believe at least some Chung Do Kwan schools used Tae Soo Do during this time. When he returned to Korea in 1965 Gen. Choi became president of the Korea Tae Soo Do Association and used his position to force a change in the name back to Taekwon-Do.

In retrospect this might not have been a wise move since there are now two distinct styles using the same name. GM Jong Chan Kim actually asked Gen. Choi to make the KTA stop using the name Taekwon-Do when he had a falling out with them and was removed as KTA president, but Gen. Choi didn't, believing that he could still spread Taekwon-Do through the military as well as the ITF. And apparently they were teaching Taekwon-Do to the Korean police by 1966 and about 90% of the armed forces by 1967 (again, according to GM Jong Chan Kim). Unfortunately, when he went into exile in Canada in 1972 things changed.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Dirty Dog]

Un proven , perhaps but supported by noteables. i.e. Nam Tae Hi.

Right. Unproven, as I said. Lots of those same notables also used to claim TKD was developed from Ancient Korean MA, which has long been know to be nonsense.
The General was a great contributor. He was not the sole founder of TKD by any means,

An opinion shared by those who view TKD thru the KKW lens of communal development so as to not allow any individual too much power. Suffice it to say I reject your reality and substitute my own which began prior to 1974 when there was no KKW or anyone else who could lay claim to being the head of promoting, spreading and deveolping a system called TKD. I do not accept that any Korean kicking and punching before 1955 to be able to claim the TKD Moniker. Forrunners of TKD - Yes. TKD - No.

I'm being accused of being a KKW sycophant? ROFL

Again, it can be a matter of perspective. The "Communal Effort" idea was promoted by the KKW which of course was founded in 1974.

The "communal effort" began with the establishment of the KTA, which was well before the KKW was founded (had to be, since the KKW was founded BY the KTA...).

Bit more complicated than that.

I am well aware. I didn't think the OP was interested in a long history lesson. The short version remains, as I said, that TKD did not have a single founder.

 

[Tez3]

I didn't think the OP was interested in a long history lesson.

I think the OP was looking to discuss the differences in actual techniques ie blocking, kicking, striking etc as he said the karateka had said that the karate blocks were different, I think he's looking to explore the different way we do things rather than the history of TKD.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Un proven , perhaps but supported by noteables. i.e. Nam Tae Hi.
"Dirty Dog: Right. Unproven, as I said. Lots of those same notables also used to claim TKD was developed from Ancient Korean MA, which has long been know to be nonsense.
""

Only unproven to the extent that you fail to accept evidence as proof. The difference between your analogy vis a vis claims of TKD being 2000 years old is that Nam Tae Hi was around at the time of the naming, claimed to have helped General Choi research and come up with the name and submit it for acceptance. General Choi's submission of the name is widely reported and accepted except for a noteable exception by a relative of Son Cuc Sun who claims he submitted it during some internet chatter. I accept the first hand accounts as proof. You are free to reject this reality. ,