What am I supposed to say to Drop Bear?

[Steve]

i like the term "streets". I like it even more if it's "da streets."

Just to add to some previous notes, and at risk of repitition, competitions give plenty of like examples from which to conclude there is a trend, along with plenty of individual feedback which can be used to for comparison. In other words, I can look at video of me, and video of others and say, "they do that and it works. I do this and it doesn't. I should try to do that." And then I can practice in context.

"Da Street" arts can't do this. The best a "street" art can do (and should do, IMO) is to look at statistics, formulate a plan and assess success or failure based on measurable improvements in that specific area. For example, a statistical need would be homeless people in an encampment, or young women living on a college campus. The plan would be a self defense program targeting these people, which may or may not include how to kick some ***. Results would be measurable based upon crime stats.

Stories and anecdotes are unreliable not just due to memory issues. It's also a matter of context. In that the context of one self defense situation is different from another. It's so subjective, reliable trends are impossible.

Heres a quick question. If a woman is on a bus and a guy grabs her butt, is that a self defense situation? I'm interested to know if the answer is Unanimous

 

[wingchun100]

This has made an interesting read. Whilst I agree with Wingchun that training for the ring isn’t training for the street, Tez’s point is also valid that if you face real violence regularly you will find it easier to switch between the two. Of course those people are in the minority.

So I agree with both of you

And you also agree that calling it "the street" does not make a poster seem like an "Excitable teen," or you would have changed the terminology.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

That's not a yes or no question. You put up two different questions, and they aren't the same - they seem to imply a third, so I'll answer all three. I've been attacked twice. I've never been in a fight. And it's unlikely either of them was trying to kill me.

No would have sufficed

 

[Deleted member 34973]

I am a stickler for actual definitions so,

fight
fīt/
verb

1. 1.
   take part in a violent struggle involving the exchange of physical blows or the use of weapons.
   "the men were fighting"
   synonyms: brawl, exchange blows,attack each other, assault each other, hit each other,punch each other; More
   

noun

1. 1.
   a violent confrontation or struggle.
   "we'll get into a fight and wind up with bloody noses"
   synonyms: brawl, fracas, melee, rumpus,skirmish, sparring match,struggle, scuffle, altercation,clash, disturbance;

This is to insure other peoples idea of the definition...is not used.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Not that I am trying to be coy, as I understand that there is a fundamental difference between a fight and self-defense.

But, I am talking about when the idea of avoiding the conflict, doesn't work and a FIGHT ensues.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Chirp, chirp..

 

[Steve]

I've been in a lot of fights, but not since I was in the military. I don't know how many were trying to kill me. At least One, but honestly that might be it. I'm with gpseymour that most fights aren't life threatening,

I got into fights daily as a kid. Less often in high school, but the dozen or so I was involved with were all pretty brutal. The militarymfights were mostly alcohol related, alpha male BS.

the one that comes to mind was when I got into a fight with a guy in high school, and when I started making him look bad, he pulled out a knife. I am pretty sure he was going to try and kill me.

 

[Steve]

How many times have you been attacked by someone trying to kill you, Guthrie? And also, how many fights have you been in?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No would have sufficed

As would a clearer question.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am a stickler for actual definitions so,

fight
fīt/
verb

1. 1.
   take part in a violent struggle involving the exchange of physical blows or the use of weapons.
   "the men were fighting"
   synonyms: brawl, exchange blows,attack each other, assault each other, hit each other,punch each other; More

noun

1. 1.
   a violent confrontation or struggle.
   "we'll get into a fight and wind up with bloody noses"
   synonyms: brawl, fracas, melee, rumpus,skirmish, sparring match,struggle, scuffle, altercation,clash, disturbance;

This is to insure other peoples idea of the definition...is not used.

Then, yes to the first question you asked, and no to the second.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

How many times have you been attacked by someone trying to kill you, Guthrie? And also, how many fights have you been in?

I grew up in a pretty rough town, small town with a big city gang problem.

My first knife fight was over a bike part, stabbed in the hand(imagine my surprise at 11)

Fights though, entirely to many to count. But, life and death, at least ten.

My first fight using martial arts was at eighteen against a coke head, finally, after 10 min, he hobbled away. (I idn't know he was on coke at the time)

I have been stabbed, hit with 2×4's and even fought off a couple of Samoans with panga's, trying gut someone over a joint.

Not once though have I ever started a fight, not once.

The reason why ask is a simple one, there are some who say that Karate doesn't work in real life scenerios and that is simple horse ****.

The use of Karate, saved my life many times and I hear a lot of people on MT who say it doesn't work.

I want to seperate the dojo ninjas from the actual artist, especially when the ninjas are giving advice concerning self defense, yet have never even used their skills outside of competition.

The street is a brutal reality, youtube kid brawls and drunken fights, don't even come close to the reality.

Descalation does work, but the type of animals that you will possibly face, dont give a damn about what is coming out of your mouth.

There seems to be a lot of people here giving advice on life and death situations, that clearly have not been involved in any real conflict and I believe that is the single most dangerous practice, giving advice on self defense and fighting, when said person has not ever experienced it.

How can you teach one to defend their lives, if you have never even experienced a situation, that requires you to do so.

Therefore, I would like to know and I am curious.

 

[drop bear]

How is training for the ring similar to training for the street?

In the ring, I cannot eye gouge or attack the groin or elbow to the back of the head.

You can't say, "Well, I might not train for it in the ring, but I know that option is available to me on the street, so I will use it there."

Do you want to know WHY you can't say that? Because you will fight the way you train. If you are not used to being able to hammer someone in the back of the head with an elbow, it won't come to you naturally. There are so many attacks you do on the street that you can't do in a tournament. Training for one is NOT like training for the other.

I mean, all you have to do is look at the fact that, in the ring, there is a referee to separate fighters. That alone proves training for the street versus the ring is not similar at all.

You cant eyegouge groin kick or elbow to the back of the head in self defence training either. you can pretend to. I can pretend to do that training for the ring if for some reason I want to. the issue is that i will be getting punched,kneed, and kicked. And that is not pretend. Which makes me want to use those techniques.

And a person who is better at punching is automatically better at eyegouging. They are not really sepparate skills.

I mean if i can drop a guy while fighting with rules. It should be easier to drop a guy when I can cheat.

 

[drop bear]

Then you should know that the point of using incidents is to look for trends among them. You then match those trends with other evidence.

That's how you figure out what's true - or at least probably true.

Provided I trust your ability to do that. Which there have been glaring examples of martial artist who have got that wrong.

The 90% of fights go to the ground is a great example.

 

[drop bear]

I grew up in a pretty rough town, small town with a big city gang problem.

My first knife fight was over a bike part, stabbed in the hand(imagine my surprise at 11)

Fights though, entirely to many to count. But, life and death, at least ten.

My first fight using martial arts was at eighteen against a coke head, finally, after 10 min, he hobbled away. (I idn't know he was on coke at the time)

I have been stabbed, hit with 2×4's and even fought off a couple of Samoans with panga's, trying gut someone over a joint.

Not once though have I ever started a fight, not once.

The reason why ask is a simple one, there are some who say that Karate doesn't work in real life scenerios and that is simple horse ****.

The use of Karate, saved my life many times and I hear a lot of people on MT who say it doesn't work.

I want to seperate the dojo ninjas from the actual artist, especially when the ninjas are giving advice concerning self defense, yet have never even used their skills outside of competition.

The street is a brutal reality, youtube kid brawls and drunken fights, don't even come close to the reality.

Descalation does work, but the type of animals that you will possibly face, dont give a damn about what is coming out of your mouth.

There seems to be a lot of people here giving advice on life and death situations, that clearly have not been involved in any real conflict and I believe that is the single most dangerous practice, giving advice on self defense and fighting, when said person has not ever experienced it.

How can you teach one to defend their lives, if you have never even experienced a situation, that requires you to do so.

Therefore, I would like to know and I am curious.

Not really outside bouncing. There were some that were technically not bouncing. So If I was drinking in a pub I might get asked to chip in if the bouncers were outnumbered.

 

[Steve]

For what it's worth, fighting skill didn't make a difference when dude pulled a knife on me. Running out into traffic and keeping a metro bus between us is what did the trick.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Provided I trust your ability to do that. Which there have been glaring examples of martial artist who have got that wrong.

The 90% of fights go to the ground is a great example.

So, because people don't use it correctly, we should just ignore the only actual evidence we have for what happens in an actual attack? That's ridiculous.

 

[drop bear]

So, because people don't use it correctly, we should just ignore the only actual evidence we have for what happens in an actual attack? That's ridiculous.

No. You should use it correctly.

But there is actual street defence evidence. That exists outside war stories.

self defence schools like BJJ use it all the time. those gracie breakdowns for example.

Street Fight Video Featuring Great Jiu-Jitsu Defense – Gracie Breakdown | WATCH BJJ

I have these guys on facebook. They do plenty of real street fighting examples.
ADCC | Facebook

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No. You should use it correctly.

But there is actual street defence evidence. That exists outside war stories.

self defence schools like BJJ use it all the time. those gracie breakdowns for example.

Street Fight Video Featuring Great Jiu-Jitsu Defense – Gracie Breakdown | WATCH BJJ

I have these guys on facebook. They do plenty of real street fighting examples.
ADCC | Facebook

You keep using terms like "war stories" that imply we're using only extreme examples. I'm talking about getting input from someone like you, who has worked the door and can speak to what kinds of attacks they have and haven't seen. I'm talking about hearing first-hand reports from people like the pharmacist who restrained a drug addict trying to rob the pharmacy. I'm talking about information from emergency medical technicians (EMT - the guys in the ambulance) about injuries they've seen and attacks they've actually experienced.

Those aren't "war stories", they are first-hand accounts of the incidents and their results. Would I prefer video? I've said as much before. But so much doesn't make it to video, and it would be foolish to simply ignore that evidence. Did fighters simply not bother to learn from one fight to the next before video existed?

 

[drop bear]

You keep using terms like "war stories" that imply we're using only extreme examples. I'm talking about getting input from someone like you, who has worked the door and can speak to what kinds of attacks they have and haven't seen. I'm talking about hearing first-hand reports from people like the pharmacist who restrained a drug addict trying to rob the pharmacy. I'm talking about information from emergency medical technicians (EMT - the guys in the ambulance) about injuries they've seen and attacks they've actually experienced.

Those aren't "war stories", they are first-hand accounts of the incidents and their results. Would I prefer video? I've said as much before. But so much doesn't make it to video, and it would be foolish to simply ignore that evidence. Did fighters simply not bother to learn from one fight to the next before video existed?

If you are suggesting that there can be some best case scenarios where anecdotal evidence is appropriate.

Then i agree with you.