What am I supposed to say to Drop Bear?

[Gerry Seymour]

Depends what you are training for. A defence against a good attack will stop a sloppy one. A defence against a sloppy attack probably wont stop a good attack.

Or.

I can do pretty much anything I want against noobs. But I would not do those same moves if the stakes were high.

Not entirely accurate. As I said, a sloppy attack can bring different physics. A throw has to take into account the input given, and the input can be vastly different from a sloppy attack. If I tried a nice, neat hip throw (something seen fairly often in Judo tournaments) against someone over-committing in a rush, I'll get knocked down. The throw has to be expanded to deal with that extra input - input which is very unlikely to occur with a skilled opponent.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It does if the evidence has no verification. How do you know what is true and what isnt?

Have you even bothered to read my other posts about evidence?

 

[drop bear]

Have you even bothered to read my other posts about evidence?

I might have skimmed it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I might have skimmed it.

Then you should know that the point of using incidents is to look for trends among them. You then match those trends with other evidence.

That's how you figure out what's true - or at least probably true.

 

[wingchun100]

I think your feminist views cause you to be hypersensitive to what everyone says, calm down I am not trolling but you were pushing your strong feminist perspectives on to me and that is not something I asked you to do. There is a Brotherhood and in that Brotherhood there exists a bunch of guys that do Warrior training and they call it a Brotherhood comma so for you to get upset that I said something about a Brotherhood is utterly ridiculous comma I completely respect any female that participates in the martial arts and would welcome them into the Brotherhood as a sister. But please it's always the same thing with you like you're arguing for women's rights or something come down please I am bored of your tactics LOL

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

Wow. I think when she made the comment about gender being irrelevant, she was just joking around with you still. There was no need to go to this level. I mean, damn.

 

[wingchun100]

Memories, particularly under stress, are typically pretty unreliable. Aren't they? I think cops or lawyers here would know better, but I've read and heard many times that eye witness accounts and people's memories of events can be wildly divergent. Often considered unreliable in court.


It's the idea of probative value. Video has high probative value. Memories are less reliable.

Right, but I think GP's point is that most of the self-defense situations in the world are not going to be caught on camera because they are spontaneous. So all we have to go by are the memories of those who fought.

 

[wingchun100]

How is training for the ring similar to training for the street?

In the ring, I cannot eye gouge or attack the groin or elbow to the back of the head.

You can't say, "Well, I might not train for it in the ring, but I know that option is available to me on the street, so I will use it there."

Do you want to know WHY you can't say that? Because you will fight the way you train. If you are not used to being able to hammer someone in the back of the head with an elbow, it won't come to you naturally. There are so many attacks you do on the street that you can't do in a tournament. Training for one is NOT like training for the other.

I mean, all you have to do is look at the fact that, in the ring, there is a referee to separate fighters. That alone proves training for the street versus the ring is not similar at all.

 

[Tez3]

Do you want to know WHY you can't say that? Because you will fight the way you train.

Well you'd think that but no, it doesn't make it necessarily so. Many MMA people I know are also doormen, police officers and others who face 'proper' violence many times yet they can easily switch from what they do in MMA and what they have to do 'outside' I've done it myself. It's actually easier than you think.

I mean, all you have to do is look at the fact that, in the ring, there is a referee to separate fighters. That alone proves training for the street versus the ring is not similar at all.

Training is different from fighting, you don't have a ref when you're training lol. Too many people assume you can't switch form competition rules to no rules, I suppose for those who don't face violence everyday it may be harder but for those that do it's much easier.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well you'd think that but no, it doesn't make it necessarily so. Many MMA people I know are also doormen, police officers and others who face 'proper' violence many times yet they can easily switch from what they do in MMA and what they have to do 'outside' I've done it myself. It's actually easier than you think.



Training is different from fighting, you don't have a ref when you're training lol. Too many people assume you can't switch form competition rules to no rules, I suppose for those who don't face violence everyday it may be harder but for those that do it's much easier.

I think that's more true for the folks who actually face stuff on a regular basis (like the doormen and officers you mentioned). They take a practical personal view of their training, and I think that makes a huge difference. That's one reason I believe a school having a self-defense focus (even if they are going to compete, like BJJ schools) leads to better preparation for the street. When you add to that the fact that the SD-oriented school will also discuss how the ring is different from the street (both good and bad), and is likely to explore some scenarios that are unlikely in the ring, and you get an even better result.

 

[wingchun100]

Well you'd think that but no, it doesn't make it necessarily so. Many MMA people I know are also doormen, police officers and others who face 'proper' violence many times yet they can easily switch from what they do in MMA and what they have to do 'outside' I've done it myself. It's actually easier than you think.



Training is different from fighting, you don't have a ref when you're training lol. Too many people assume you can't switch form competition rules to no rules, I suppose for those who don't face violence everyday it may be harder but for those that do it's much easier.

But training is different from the street in that if you are winded, you can tell your partner you need a break. Can't say that on the street. LOL

 

[Tez3]

But training is different from the street in that if you are winded, you can tell your partner you need a break. Can't say that on the street. LOL

Well you can tell your partner you need a break but you won't get it in our gym. You'll be told to go away and get a cup of man up. Stamina is very important, and you'd actually need more for a comp than you would a street altercation which are unlikely to last as long frankly.
You cannot make a blanket statement and expect it to fit everyone.
If we take your premise that those training for sport can only do sport then we'd have to say that to train for 'street' confrontations we'd have to actually go out and indulge in 'street' confrontations because that's the only way we could train.
The 'street' is somewhat of a ridiculous name for training, it reeks of wannabe gangsters etc. Shall we just go with 'realistic self defence training' or something else that sensible rather than sounding like excitable teenagers?

 

[wingchun100]

Well you can tell your partner you need a break but you won't get it in our gym. You'll be told to go away and get a cup of man up. Stamina is very important, and you'd actually need more for a comp than you would a street altercation which are unlikely to last as long frankly.
You cannot make a blanket statement and expect it to fit everyone.
If we take your premise that those training for sport can only do sport then we'd have to say that to train for 'street' confrontations we'd have to actually go out and indulge in 'street' confrontations because that's the only way we could train.
The 'street' is somewhat of a ridiculous name for training, it reeks of wannabe gangsters etc. Shall we just go with 'realistic self defence training' or something else that sensible rather than sounding like excitable teenagers?

I'm not the one who started calling it "the street." That is how it has been described throughout this thread. No one else raised that objection or thought it made us sound like "excitable teenagers." Maybe you are a bit too picky when it comes to semantics.

As for your statement about how they would be told to "man up" in your gym...that isn't every gym out there. Maybe some people don't have high stamina yet but are working toward it. Are you telling me that, in your gym, you would insult those who might not be at the same level as you? In that case, how would you ever expect them to get there? I know if I shelled out good money to go to a martial arts school and all they liked to do was berate me, then I would be asking for a refund...and if I didn't get it, I would make sure they never earned another penny from me again.

 

[Tez3]

In that case, how would you ever expect them to get there? I know if I shelled out good money to go to a martial arts school and all they liked to do was berate me, then I would be asking for a refund...and if I didn't get it, I would make sure they never earned another penny from me again.

You wouldn't get into our gym, we aren't a martial arts school, and we don't charge. We insult each other on a regular basis, we don't berate anyone by the way. If you have never worked with the British Forces you won't understand.
As for 'the street' you will find it's more than me that thinks it's a silly name for self defence training, try researching threads on the subject. A lot of people object to it, I just said it was silly.
Now, don't trip up getting off your high horse.

 

[wingchun100]

I don't know about anyone else, but I think someone posting here should feel free to use whatever terms they are comfortable with, as long as it does not violate TOS and isn't completely off the mark. You have my word, friends: I will NEVER come down on you for saying something like "training for the streets" versus "training for realistic self-defense." You come here for thought-provoking conversations about martial arts...not to get bashed over the head by the Semantics Police.

Rant over.

 

[Tez3]

I don't know about anyone else, but I think someone posting here should feel free to use whatever terms they are comfortable with, as long as it does not violate TOS and isn't completely off the mark. You have my word, friends: I will NEVER come down on you for saying something like "training for the streets" versus "training for realistic self-defense." You come here for thought-provoking conversations about martial arts...not to get bashed over the head by the Semantics Police.

Rant over.

Do you over react a lot? Is it cold up there on your high horse?
Are you telling us that 'the street' is a good description for self defence? How do you think that goes down with women looking for self defence against abusers/attackers/randy friends who want to grab her genitals? 'Oh look we train for the street?' How do you think that appeals to normal people looking for self defence?
You can think it's semantics, I could agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well you can tell your partner you need a break but you won't get it in our gym. You'll be told to go away and get a cup of man up. Stamina is very important, and you'd actually need more for a comp than you would a street altercation which are unlikely to last as long frankly.
You cannot make a blanket statement and expect it to fit everyone.
If we take your premise that those training for sport can only do sport then we'd have to say that to train for 'street' confrontations we'd have to actually go out and indulge in 'street' confrontations because that's the only way we could train.
The 'street' is somewhat of a ridiculous name for training, it reeks of wannabe gangsters etc. Shall we just go with 'realistic self defence training' or something else that sensible rather than sounding like excitable teenagers?

I only use "the street" because "real world" sounds demeaning to sport, in my ears. The same could possibly be said for "realistic self-defense training". Normally, I just refer to "self-defense" as opposed to "sport" or "competition" as the application of the training. Some train for self-defense, some for sport, and there's a lot of overlap between the two so some folks combine them.

 

[Tez3]

Self defence ( spelt the proper way lol... I'm teasing!) does for me, it doesn't really need anything else.
Anyway, I'm off, just eaten last meal until after Yom Kippur. See you all in a couple of days. ( I only added that because I don't want people to think I was posting and running. I just have something more important on)

 

[Paul_D]

This has made an interesting read. Whilst I agree with Wingchun that training for the ring isn’t training for the street, Tez’s point is also valid that if you face real violence regularly you will find it easier to switch between the two. Of course those people are in the minority.

So I agree with both of you

 

[Deleted member 34973]

I am curious, how many people commenting here, have actually been in a fight.

Not bouncing, not police work.

But standing there with another person, who's intent is to take your life?

Just curious and a simple yes or no please.

And, how many times?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am curious, how many people commenting here, have actually been in a fight.

Not bouncing, not police work.

But standing there with another person, who's intent is to take your life?

Just curious and a simple yes or no please.

And, how many times?

That's not a yes or no question. You put up two different questions, and they aren't the same - they seem to imply a third, so I'll answer all three. I've been attacked twice. I've never been in a fight. And it's unlikely either of them was trying to kill me.