What age do you stop sparring?

[Tez3]

There appears to be a confusion here, Tez, that "Unified rules" translates to "UFC rules" and that simply isn't the case. The California State Athletic Commission voted in the regulations that eventually became the unified rules of MMA. State Athletic Commissions regulate combat sports in America and in order to put on a legal show in the US you must abide by whatever state's rules you plan to hold the show in.

What kind of promotion lists a set of rules and doesn't follow them? They have a name for that, it's called hypocrisy.*

Every state that allows MMA in the US follows the unified rules, and some tweaks to procedure concerning weigh ins and attire vary from state to state. Your bias against the UFC is showing more and more as discussions where MMA is brought up occur. Every time the UFC is mentioned you appear to take it as an attack or a personal challenge to reply with as much tongue-in-cheek content as possible. MMA as a whole is a business, if it wasn't there wouldn't be "professional" MMA fighters. It wouldn't be a career choice if it wasn't a business. But I digress.*

You said you have been around since MMA began. I'm sure you mean MMA as it is today as in post UFC 1. While you may know the UK MMA scene it is very clear you have little interest/knowledge of MMA outside of that. Being unfamiliar with the term "unified rules of mma" which were introduced and adopted across the globe circa the year 2000 is yet another piece to that particular puzzle.*

What you may not know is that MMA has roots that stretch back directly as far as one hundred years ago in Brazil and Japan. It was commonly called "Vale Tudo" in Brazil and featured renowned fighters like Carlson and Helio Gracie, Waldemar Santana, Rei Zulu, Ivan Gomez, Mashaiko Kimura(the maneuver's namesake), among others. These bouts took place in all manners from ads put out in newspapers with open challenges for cash prizes, to in a ring in front of a crowd as exhibitions. Varied styles from catch wrestling to Judo to Jiu Jitsu and Boxing, Muay Thai, and Kickboxing specialists looked to match their art with one another.*

Yeah yeah, have a bash then move on. Assume the Brit is ignorant and knows nothing. Gee imagine my amazement when finding out that Vale Tudo was the forerunner of MMA, I must tell my mates who actually fought in Vale Tudo fights, they couldn't have known what they were doing, nor could I really if I was there too. I'm surprised you forgot to mention Pankration, still done in Greece,( in 1895 they refused to put it into the Olympics) has been for more years than the UFC has been going. Thank you for your lecture, totally unnecessary of course, but it'll make you feel better. Shame you haven't read my posts but there you go.

Btw as for knee strikes being legal in the UFC, if they weren't illegal why did they need to say they were now legal?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Interestingly I was just talking to a sports doctor regarding this. Irrespective of the legality of knee kicks in any form of fighting, kicking to the knee is very very dangerous (his words). The human knee joint is not strong and does not like to bend, the average joe on the street is not expecting to be kicked in the knee and is not standing in some sort of stance to protect the knee. The knee is weak, vulnerable and to kick someone there is very bad unless you really want to drop them and dont care about the consequences legally or morally. The fact that the severity of knee kicks even needs to be discussed is amusing in itself.

 

[puunui]

This started from a discussion regarding knee kicks being useful (for an average recreational martial arts practitioner against a larger/stronger opponent) as they usually have a severe effect. I said they were less useful as they have been proved in the MMA ring. I've posted examples of fighters using them, which you've argued they weren't applied correctly (in effect this helps my side of the debate about them being useful in SD, when an expert professional elite fighter can't do them corectly).

I don't know if I want to get in on this action, especially since it is kind of off topic. But back in high school, my friend squared off with some guy who came flying in with a low side kick to my friend's knee, which bounced off harmlessly. My friend immediately responded while the guy was standing there with his mouth open because his bruce lee death kick failed, threw an overhand right to his jaw, and knocked the guy out cold with one shot. Hapkido has a low side kick, but we aim it at the mid thigh, and not the knee. Anyway, that is my take on the discussion about the effectiveness of kicks to the knee.

 

[Cyriacus]

I don't know if I want to get in on this action, especially since it is kind of off topic. But back in high school, my friend squared off with some guy who came flying in with a low side kick to my friend's knee, which bounced off harmlessly. My friend immediately responded while the guy was standing there with his mouth open because his bruce lee death kick failed, threw an overhand right to his jaw, and knocked the guy out cold with one shot. Hapkido has a low side kick, but we aim it at the mid thigh, and not the knee. Anyway, that is my take on the discussion about the effectiveness of kicks to the knee.

Power.
Ask an Untrained Individual to throw a Powerful Side Kick to the anything

Optionally, Aim just Below or just Above the Knee.

 

[puunui]

Power.
Ask an Untrained Individual to throw a Powerful Side Kick to the anything

Optionally, Aim just Below or just Above the Knee.

I don't know if that other guy was trained or not. He was a immigrant from hong kong I believe, and may have taken some sort of martial arts, but probably not too much. He didn't move like he was skilled, more like he was poorly imitating bruce lee with the cat screams and everything. But then again, everyone was imitating bruce lee back then. But the shock and amazement on his face when his kick failed was priceless. He really thought that side kick to my friend's knee would end it, and when it failed, it was like his preconceived concept of self defense or self offense evaporated in that one instant. The thing about kicks to the knee is that you can't really practice it full force, so it is difficult to get a feel for it and how your opponent will respond when actually struck with some force and weight behind it.

 

[Cyriacus]

I don't know if that other guy was trained or not. He was a immigrant from hong kong I believe, and may have taken some sort of martial arts, but probably not too much. He didn't move like he was skilled, more like he was poorly imitating bruce lee with the cat screams and everything. But then again, everyone was imitating bruce lee back then. But the shock and amazement on his face when his kick failed was priceless. He really thought that side kick to my friend's knee would end it, and when it failed, it was like his preconceived concept of self defense or self offense evaporated in that one instant. The thing about kicks to the knee is that you can't really practice it full force, so it is difficult to get a feel for it and how your opponent will respond when actually struck with some force and weight behind it.

Yeah - I figure that to be lack of Training. I personally Train as if nothing is going to work (Bare with Me). I dont throw some big Power Punch expecting it to suddenly end everything. I use a Powerful Punch because I feel like it at that moment, and immediately follow up. In a SD Situation, Id rather Hit someone really hard, then hit them again, than hit them really hard, find out I hit something like the Jaw instead of the Temple or Chin, and get smacked in the face for hesitating. Same goes for Leg Kicks.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Power.
Ask an Untrained Individual to throw a Powerful Side Kick to the anything

Optionally, Aim just Below or just Above the Knee.

Exactly right, paticularly if their weight is on the front leg which is the leg you're kicking. All it can do is buckle. I can magine it would bounce off if there was no weight on that leg locking it to the ground,but the poundage a sidekick can generate would just destroy the knee joint if kicked just above or below the knee itself while the person's weight is on it.

 

[Ludo]

Yeah yeah, have a bash then move on. Assume the Brit is ignorant and knows nothing.

Perhaps it's you who isn't understanding what I'm writing this time around, hmm?

Gee imagine my amazement when finding out that Vale Tudo was the forerunner of MMA, I must tell my mates who actually fought in Vale Tudo fights, they couldn't have known what they were doing, nor could I really if I was there too.

Thats pretty passive aggressive of you.

I'm surprised you forgot to mention Pankration, still done in Greece,( in 1895 they refused to put it into the Olympics) has been for more years than the UFC has been going. Thank you for your lecture, totally unnecessary of course, but it'll make you feel better. Shame you haven't read my posts but there you go.

Thats pretty passive aggressive of you. However I'm skeptical that you are indeed 90+ years old to have been around for the beginnings of Vale Tudo. I didn't bring up pankration because you are obviously not old enough to have been around for that. I also didn't mention the open challenges held across europe and the world for that matter between fighting styles such as various martial arts schools and programs in china, or the ninja/samurai in japan, or those battle robots they had on television about fifteen years ago because they weren't directly relevant to MMA today. Vale Tudo involves the same people, or rather the people directly preceeding the people responsible for modern MMA(the Gracies).

And this isn't a lecture, it's a literal comprehension of what you stated in your post since I'm not keen on making the same mistake twice. Let alone twice in a row.

Btw as for knee strikes being legal in the UFC, if they weren't illegal why did they need to say they were now legal?

"Linear Knee Strikes

After a discussion prompted by the Silva-Leites bout, the Committee reviewed the issue of linear strikes to the knee joint and agreed that this technique should remain a legal technique. "

From that link you didn't bother to click/read before. The question was never that they were legal or not, the question was whether it should REMAIN legal due to it's potentially dangerous nature. It is the kind of thing that could in an instant cripple the knee joint. In following the same basis for outlawing knees and kicks to the head of a downed opponent would be My guess.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

A sidekick/roundhouse kick will probably generate between 700 and 1500 pounds of force (even more from an elite fighter). The anterior cruciate ligament in the knee can cop just under 500 pounds of force before knee reconstruction. Info courtesy of sports doctor (late reply, but he only just got back to me). So basically even some lame *** sidekick measuring only 300 pounds of force (which my mate's 10 year old son could probably produce) is still going to do a lot of damage to a knee. An adult coloured belt will most probably generate 500 pounds if they're any good. An adult black belt and its good night knee. Im no doctor, this is just the information being forwarded to me from a medical proffessional.

 

[Cyriacus]

A sidekick/roundhouse kick will probably generate between 700 and 1500 pounds of force (even more from an elite fighter). The anterior cruciate ligament in the knee can cop just under 500 pounds of force before knee reconstruction. Info courtesy of sports doctor (late reply, but he only just got back to me). So basically even some lame *** sidekick measuring only 300 pounds of force (which my mate's 10 year old son could probably produce) is still going to do a lot of damage to a knee. An adult coloured belt will most probably generate 500 pounds if they're any good. An adult black belt and its good night knee. Im no doctor, this is just the information being forwarded to me from a medical proffessional.

0:06 - 0:13
Case in point, if one closely observes where the shots hit, coupled with the fact that the Stance takes these types of strikes into consideration.

 

[SPX]

I certainly don't think that anyone argues that a well-placed and executed knee kick could cause serious damage. But just like all round kicks don't break a rib, and all punches don't break a nose, the key is landing it just right for the desired effect. You certainly can't count on it.

 

[Buka]

We all know that some shots hurt us more than others. Some might have higher PSI numbers, some may be faster, some might appear to be nothing more than a flick or a jab. But, every once in a while, you feel that nagging rip/tear/crunch/ring that you KNOW is going to haunt you for a long time.

As for knees, sure, the right strike to the knee is going to mess a person up. But, that's not the primary cause of knee woes. We all step wrong, land wrong, pivot wrong or slip wrong at some point. It's a reminder of how fragile the knee joint can be.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I certainly don't think that anyone argues that a well-placed and executed knee kick could cause serious damage. But just like all round kicks don't break a rib, and all punches don't break a nose, the key is landing it just right for the desired effect. You certainly can't count on it.

True, but a less % of roundkicks break a rib and punches break a nose because you have your arms to protect those areas, which almost comes naturally to most people. The knee is far less protected, plus if you have someones attention and they are looking you in the eye, a kick to the leg can easily go unseen easier than an upper body shot. Oh, and by the way, sorry for veering from topic, perhaps this could have been a thread unto itself

 

[Cyriacus]

True, but a less % of roundkicks break a rib and punches break a nose because you have your arms to protect those areas, which almost comes naturally to most people. The knee is far less protected, plus if you have someones attention and they are looking you in the eye, a kick to the leg can easily go unseen easier than an upper body shot. Oh, and by the way, sorry for veering from topic, perhaps this could have been a thread unto itself

Yes well, we both know that if a seperate Thread was made, noone would use it

 

[puunui]

0:06 - 0:13

That looks like a leg kick instead of a kick to the knee.

 

[Cyriacus]

That looks like a leg kick instead of a kick to the knee.

All but the last one, Good Sir.
Take into account the angle of his Leg. The Knee Joint covers a fair area. Take a look on yourself.

 

[SPX]

True, but a less % of roundkicks break a rib and punches break a nose because you have your arms to protect those areas, which almost comes naturally to most people. The knee is far less protected, plus if you have someones attention and they are looking you in the eye, a kick to the leg can easily go unseen easier than an upper body shot.

I don't disagree. Personally, I actually think that knee kicks SHOULD be banned in MMA. Makes me cringe.

 

[SPX]

Yes well, we both know that if a seperate Thread was made, noone would use it

It would get like 6 replies at most.

Going off topic in a long-running forum thread is an Internet tradition. You'd be foolish to try to stop it.

 

[puunui]

Yeah - I figure that to be lack of Training. I personally Train as if nothing is going to work (Bare with Me). I dont throw some big Power Punch expecting it to suddenly end everything. I use a Powerful Punch because I feel like it at that moment, and immediately follow up. In a SD Situation, Id rather Hit someone really hard, then hit them again, than hit them really hard, find out I hit something like the Jaw instead of the Temple or Chin, and get smacked in the face for hesitating. Same goes for Leg Kicks.

I think that is a good way to think about it, that your ace in the hole may in fact, fail. So many people think they have this secret technique that will trump all others, when in fact it might not. I was exchanging techniques with a kodenkan jujitsu black belt once and his techniques simply didn't work on me. Finally he got frustrated and threw an elbow at my head with a loud scream, and I simply blocked it by raising my arm up. He had that same look of bewilderment and stunned amazement when his death blow failed. It was like a deer in the headlights situation.

 

[Cyriacus]

I think that is a good way to think about it, that your ace in the hole may in fact, fail. So many people think they have this secret technique that will trump all others, when in fact it might not. I was exchanging techniques with a kodenkan jujitsu black belt once and his techniques simply didn't work on me. Finally he got frustrated and threw an elbow at my head with a loud scream, and I simply blocked it by raising my arm up. He had that same look of bewilderment and stunned amazement when his death blow failed. It was like a deer in the headlights situation.

Yep. Its much like Me, and Spinning Backfists. I can put more Power and Speed (mostly Power) into that than any of My other Strikes. ANY OF THEM. And I can make it come out of absolutely nowere. But if I were to use it, I am not reliant on it working. I still practice coming off it and following straight up, and going from there. Because Id rather assume something isnt going to work, than overcommit.