Much in the same way, I know someone who likes Sliding Side Kicks. Even though He virtually always uses them, well, why dont You try 'just blocking/evading it'
Its easy to say that, but Situationally, it aint so easy. Like Head Kicks.
What age do you stop sparring?
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Its easy to say that, but Situationally, it aint so easy. Like Head Kicks.
mastercole
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Never stand still and let your partner hit you, when exchanging full contact drills, you are trying to catch the time, distance, etc, and move with the hit, rolling with the punches so to speak, like the sweet science of boxing. It's always best to start out with double hogu and use the hands to stretch it out away from your body, then later go to one. Some elite fighters take off the hogus and drill full contact. But always check with your doctor before attempting any of this methods
Do You mean like this? (Also, the first part of the Video is different to about 2/3 of it. So be a bit patient with the startNever stand still and let your partner hit you, when exchanging full contact drills, you are trying to catch the time, distance, etc, and move with the hit, rolling with the punches so to speak, like the sweet science of boxing. It's always best to start out with double hogu and use the hands to stretch it out away from your body, then later go to one. Some elite fighters take off the hogus and drill full contact. But always check with your doctor before attempting any of this methods
)
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mastercole
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<<<
Today, my regular students never spar. 20 years ago, they had no choice. It was spar or don't come back. Today, they just do drills, and fun drills at that. People off the streets start getting hit hard in class, they usual never come back. You will go through 100 to find that 1 that will like it.
mastercole
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mastercole
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mastercole
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If you can not escape an attacker you might have to, punch, kick, bite, elbow, stab, shoot, whatever, to defend your self (life), and only do so when it is apparent that you have to.
To say when to kick, and when not to kick in a fight is, well, both wrong. You won't know until the time comes and the opportunity presents itself, if it ever does.
Nice thoughts, Ralph and Cyriacus. . .
Personally, I like to kick. When I was younger I used to work all kinds of kicks, and the ones where you were simultaneously flying through the air and spinning were my favorite. I can still do a lot of those kicks, but haven't not actually used them in a combative situation in a long time, I would not feel comfortable using them--or most kicks--in a real situation. I would personally prefer a very strong base, with good hands.
With that said, I miss kicking. For anyone who has been lurking in the karate section, you may know that I'm about 90% joined up with a wado-ryu group. I'm excited about that, but having watched a few classes (full admission here that I really don't know much about wado-ryu), I already know that I'm going to miss the kicking of TKD. I've actually wondered if maybe I should try to do both TKD and karate at the same time.
In any case, one thing I will say is that if you're going to kick on the street, then make sure you have at least a basic grappling game. Because even an unskilled drunk might be able to catch your kick or just barrell into you at the right moment and end up on top of you. You don't want to be a fish out of water at that point.
Personally, I like to kick. When I was younger I used to work all kinds of kicks, and the ones where you were simultaneously flying through the air and spinning were my favorite. I can still do a lot of those kicks, but haven't not actually used them in a combative situation in a long time, I would not feel comfortable using them--or most kicks--in a real situation. I would personally prefer a very strong base, with good hands.
With that said, I miss kicking. For anyone who has been lurking in the karate section, you may know that I'm about 90% joined up with a wado-ryu group. I'm excited about that, but having watched a few classes (full admission here that I really don't know much about wado-ryu), I already know that I'm going to miss the kicking of TKD. I've actually wondered if maybe I should try to do both TKD and karate at the same time.
In any case, one thing I will say is that if you're going to kick on the street, then make sure you have at least a basic grappling game. Because even an unskilled drunk might be able to catch your kick or just barrell into you at the right moment and end up on top of you. You don't want to be a fish out of water at that point.
Our definition of "flashy" may be different, but I've definitely seen some jumping techniques even in the Olympics.
mastercole
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Do You mean like this? (Also, the first part of the Video is different to about 2/3 of it. So be a bit patient with the start
Those are mostly light drills. Some hits maybe landing hard, tough to tell. Modern training drills are a bit different.
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ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I think the same goes for a puncher though. I think the chances of a 'good' kicker having their leg caught and getting dragged to the ground is less than an 'average' puncher getting barrelled over or having a punch caught and dragged to the ground. I really dont think kicking has a higher degree of risk. Again though, Im talking about good kickers, not some guy from up the pub who did 6 months of karate in highschool.
I would certainly agree that ANYONE should have a capable grappling game. I have about 6 month's worth of judo and, while I definitely do not consider myself any sort of grappling wizard, I feel very confident that I could handle any untrained person who was relatively close to my size who decided to clinch with me. Whether puncher or kicker, I do feel that at least some basics are essential.
As for "good kickers," I'm sure they have less of a chance of getting a kick caught, but it doesn't change the fact that if your body is only being supported by one leg, then it's significantly easier for you to get taken down. While kicking, your mobility is severely decreased, and it takes much less to unbalance you. This is just physics, and certainly not a knock on your skills or on TKD.
As for "good kickers," I'm sure they have less of a chance of getting a kick caught, but it doesn't change the fact that if your body is only being supported by one leg, then it's significantly easier for you to get taken down. While kicking, your mobility is severely decreased, and it takes much less to unbalance you. This is just physics, and certainly not a knock on your skills or on TKD.
Im inclined to Agree - We do some Takedowns VS Punches and Kicks. Kicks are easier to Grab, but Im confident in that if I can get a hold of someones Wrist, that I can go from there, should I choose.
I Agree about needing to know Grappling to a point, at least. I learn it in TKD, and most good Dojangs Teach it, KKW, ITF, or otherwise. Perhaps not Wrestling Esque Grappling like what Youd find in BJJ - But lets not go into that
That said, Kicking is, I believe, easier to Grab, but Harder to do a Takedown from. Because whilst They may only have one Leg, They also have more options to turn it against You. With an Arm Takedown, You can immobilise both Legs, whilst rendering it very hard to resist, due to the constrained Arm. If You grab someones Leg, You need to take into account that all of their Body Weight is now concentrated on One Leg, giving it a great deal of Stability. If taken out, its down and out, most likely. But try holding someones leg up, and just kicking at their supporting Leg. Youll hurt it, but it wont go out. Inevitably, Youll end up doing a Takedown with Your Hands, just like You would if Youd grabbed their Arm. Rereading this before I post it, I cant really put it any more clearly than, Id suggest that both have about the same likelyhood of Success, except that a Grabbed Leg = Two Free Arms. Id prefer, if I grabbed a Leg, to follow up with a Strike, *then* a Takedown.
That said, Ive also Thrown some folks with a weak Center. Having done Judo, Im sure You know what I mean. This also equates to variables, such as how strong Your Opponents Center is. This may force You to overcompensate in a SD Situation.
Just My Contribution to the Discussion.
From your description, my guess is that a lot of the grappling that you've been trained in is more of the hapkido/aikido variety. Honestly, I don't know much about throwing from a wrist lock or that sort of technique beyond what I've seen in demonstrations and whatnot.
In judo, we talk a lot about "kazushi," or unbalancing the opponent. In fact, when two judokas go to war with each other, the first part of battle is setting your opponent up for a fall. That's largely what all the pushing, pulling and yanking is about before a throw happens. You're trying to take away their base so that you can successfully execute a technique. You have 8 directions of kazushi--front, back, the sides, and the four angles.
If you have someone on one leg, they have already done most of the work for you in achieving kazushi. Their base is severely compromised. There's no need to chop the leg out from under them because they're a top heavy object. You merely need to push or pull them in any one of the eight directions to get them off balance and successfully execute a throw or takedown.
If you watch an MMA fight, kickboxers are much more reticent to throw a kick when fighting a good grappler because it's much easier to defend the takedown when they have both feet solidly planted on the ground.
Personally, when I did judo, I never did get great at executing a lot of the high-level throws against resisting opponents. If I had stayed in it longer I'm sure I would've gotten better, but I was always a lot more comfortable with clinch throws, like the hip toss or more greco-esque stuff like getting my arms around them like a bearhug, dropping my weight underneath theirs, and then picking them up and slamming them.
I think that what I would suggest for TKDists is to make sure you are comfortable if someone closes the distance. Since there's no clinching in any style of TKD, and no face punches under the WTF rules, it's easy to get used to not having someone up in your face. When you go back and watch the early UFCs--when it really was style vs style--grapplers were always able to close the distance eventually, and I think that even a motivated and aggressive brawler stands a chance of timing his attack right to get into a range that takes your kicks away.
From your description, my guess is that a lot of the grappling that you've been trained in is more of the hapkido/aikido variety. Honestly, I don't know much about throwing from a wrist lock or that sort of technique beyond what I've seen in demonstrations and whatnot.
Im gonna have to disagree. Having seen Hapkido, this is very little like it. I think Ive learned two Wristlocks, and theyre for use after taking someone down. Not as a setup. Im talking about literally grabbing someones Arm with one hand, and most of the time, their Torso with the other. Failing that, their Neck. It just happens to be easiest to grab the Wrist instead of the Forearm. I have no bloody idea what thats akin to, but then, I dont really see a need to read into it.
In judo, we talk a lot about "kazushi," or unbalancing the opponent. In fact, when two judokas go to war with each other, the first part of battle is setting your opponent up for a fall. That's largely what all the pushing, pulling and yanking is about before a throw happens. You're trying to take away their base so that you can successfully execute a technique. You have 8 directions of kazushi--front, back, the sides, and the four angles.
Aye. The Hand on the Torso usually pushes.
If you have someone on one leg, they have already done most of the work for you in achieving kazushi. Their base is severely compromised. There's no need to chop the leg out from under them because they're a top heavy object. You merely need to push or pull them in any one of the eight directions to get them off balance and successfully execute a throw or takedown.
This is actually My Point
If you watch an MMA fight, kickboxers are much more reticent to throw a kick when fighting a good grappler because it's much easier to defend the takedown when they have both feet solidly planted on the ground.
As I said - Kicks are easier to Grab. Id just say its harder to actually do the Takedowns from there. Its like a Thai Clinch. Im interested to know why either A: Uppercut Flurry or B: Punch the Rising Knees at the Thigh to try and get the Nerve; Never happen.
Personally, when I did judo, I never did get great at executing a lot of the high-level throws against resisting opponents. If I had stayed in it longer I'm sure I would've gotten better, but I was always a lot more comfortable with clinch throws, like the hip toss or more greco-esque stuff like getting my arms around them like a bearhug, dropping my weight underneath theirs, and then picking them up and slamming them.
Personally, I tend to be good at Grab > Hit > Takedown. I can do Throws, but its not exactly a specialty. Most of it comes from Physical Strength more than skill, which perhaps isnt the intent
I think that what I would suggest for TKDists is to make sure you are comfortable if someone closes the distance. Since there's no clinching in any style of TKD, and no face punches under the WTF rules, it's easy to get used to not having someone up in your face. When you go back and watch the early UFCs--when it really was style vs style--grapplers were always able to close the distance eventually, and I think that even a motivated and aggressive brawler stands a chance of timing his attack right to get into a range that takes your kicks away.
Well, theres illegal clinching in WTF Sparring
Just My Contribution. As of now, Im enjoying This Thread.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I agree, good thread. I think I have seen (in real life) more take downs as a result of a wild haymaker throwing all momentum forward and leaving the thrower of the punch completely off balance, than I have from kicks. Its funny, in most fights Ive seen people throw this massive air swing of a punch lunging all their weight forward with absolutely no thought of what to do if that punch doesnt connect (which it usually doesnt) and then their opponent very easily steps to one side, gives them a very light shove and the guy goes flying into a heap on the ground. A friend of mine who used to get into heaps of street fights back in the day used to always tell me that 90% of the people he fought had one thing, a wild right punch. After that they had nothing, no second punch, no kick, no grabs, nothing. He said that prior to the fight starting he would just watch their right hand because he knew after it swung at him they had absolutely no plan B whatsoever. The more fights I see, the more this seems to be the case.
While reading this thread, I thought of this quote from "Knack Self-Defense for Women":
"Statistically the most common attacks a man faces are 1) a big haymaker and 2) an attempted tackle. Women are more likely to be attacked by 1) being approached from behind, grabbed, and dragged to the ground or 2) being approached from the front, grabbed, and dragged to the ground. Because of this, the clinchh range is an essential part of training for both genders."
And, these are only the "higher level" attacks, in my view. Not accounted for in those statistics are the attacks on women that are demeaned and normalized in many cultures by calling them "unwanted advances" or "unwanted advances of a friendly drunk." Having any part of one's person grabbed, in my view, is not an "unwanted advance," it is an attack.
I'd welcome thoughts on what such statistics means for women Taekwondo practitioners who study Taekwondo, in part, to improve their skill at self-defense. Particularly for short, lightweight women such as myself.
Thank you!
Cynthia
StudentCarl
3rd Black Belt
Hi Cynthia,
Here's my two cents:
I relate to this more from a sparring perspective than general Taekwondo because this involves strategy and tactics. What matters most is that this is a physical mismatch, and the smaller person (whether male or female, adult or child) cannot afford to get grabbed or absorb blows from a relative giant. First some general "self-defense" comments:
1. Size matters A LOT. Big people are more massive and tend to have more muscle; they have more reach; they can usually absorb more impact and keep going.
2. Mobility can only save you from size if you have escape space and good footwear/footing.
3. You can't exchange blows or stay in a "fight".
a. If you get hit first, you might be done...so you must first make him miss hitting or grabbing. Protect your head, but
remember that him grabbing and controlling you may be a win for him if you don't have an answer.
b. Strike decisively and break contact (get away) (See 4a below)
4. After awareness and avoidance of a big, strong person getting their hands on you, next best is:
a. attack targets that end the fight and can't be covered with muscle or bone--eyes and throat are best targets (groin is inconsistent stopper)
b. use a weapon with which you have skill; have a weapon and/or have trained with expedients.
c. if a situation is going violent, hit first. Many think self-defense means the other guy gets the first swing. That's wrong (though there is legal detail to this
that one needs to understand)
d. fight like you life depends on it (it might) and never quit. Get mad, loud and dangerous.
e. the mental part of d. must be trained and is often a weak spot with women. If you haven't, you should envision yourself sticking a pen in someone's eye
and envision the blood and goo that results...and get okay with the idea that you ARE WORTH doing that so you get to go home again.
For the general Taekwondo student:
Fitness is essential for survival, so any regular training will improve a person's athleticism. Training with size mismatches (with a larger partner who has self-control) can help small people better understand the issues and learn some answers. This is obviously not 'the basics'. I would broaden this topic to call it dealing with size mismatches, as it applies equally to children and even to us 'normal-sized' men when facing someone seriously large. I have sparred with people 4-5" taller and 50# heavier; it does require a different approach and that can be trained. A good way to train this is to work with a skilled large person who has the self-control to give you the real challenges without hurting you. I would not do this with anyone inexperienced because the reality IS intimidating. BUT...you have to face it to deal with it effectively.
Nice question.
Carl
Thank you very much, Carl. This is great.
My take as I have read this discussion about the value of sparring in self-defense is that people's answers really depend on 1) who they are and what their advantages are (e.g., height, reach, mass, speed, strength, skill set, street fighting experience vs. dojang sparring/grappling experience) and 2) what they perceive they are likely to encounter in a real life attack. If we're going to teach non-huge, non-naturally intimidating practitioners who are not unusually athletically gifted--you know, ordinary men, women, and children whose reasons for studying Taekwondo include self-defense in the real world--how to defend themselves, I don't see it as being possible only through full-contact sparring, as important as that experience is, for exactly the reasons you describe that relate to size mismatch. Some of you may walk around with little fear of being perceived as a target simply because you are male and large. Those of us who are petite women live in a completely different world because inherent characterstics that we cannot change result in others seeing us as potential victims: we are shorter with less muscle mass--often substantially so--and we live in a societies whose institutions and individual members often, though not always, devalue us solely based on our gender. We are simply not likely to end a fight with a single punch after getting swung at by a hay maker. Our attacker is going to stalk us, lay in wait for us, or--worse yet--be in a close relationship with us. As a mental health care provider, I know that the statistics on violence against women, including sexual assault, are horrifying and I have seen the devastating impact that such violence has on the lives of individual women as well as their families (take a look at http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims for just a glimpse into this social disaster). I am 100% sure, that as useful as the lessons of full-contact sparring are for all of the excellent reasons put forth in this thread, they are not enough for women or anyone else with a significant size mismatch. Add aging, injury, or disability to the mix and full-contact sparring may not even be an option. Surely other approaches to teaching self-defense are also urgently needed. So, how do we do this effectively in the Taekwondo dojang?
Cynthia
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The other thing is, when Theyre not overcommitting, and I think this is a big one; Not Well Trained Fighters dont want to get hit. They do not want to be struck, but they want to strike. So They lean out.
