What age do you stop sparring?

[andyjeffries]

I still enjoy light or even medium sparring. do not see a need to do match level sparring at this point in my life. Light or medium sparring gives me a check on where I am as far as my body goes, if my reactions are slowing, and that sort of thing.

I find that light or medium sparring also gives me a mental workout. Although sparring with elite level athletes is I'm sure a game of speed and reaction, at the general club level it's more like a strategic chess game. Trying to condition them long term (more than a single kick, but still within a "round") to a certain thing that you predict they will react in a certain way so that you can capitalise on it. That sort of thing.

I also still enjoy taking a good shot. I still very much enjoy doing hogu drills, especially being the receiver. Doing hogu drills provides a level of conditioning and training that is not available through other methods.

This is one of those things where I'm not sure if I'm using the same terminology as everyone else. When you are doing hogu drills, do you mean just wearing protectors and doing an "attack-counter" scenario (sometimes getting more complex in to "attack-counter-countercounter", but the point remains). Or are you just wearing a hogu and letting your opponent hit you (like you're a stationary bag) with paddles inside your hogu (or double hogu)?

What I am leaning away from is paddle drills. Personally, I do way less paddle kicks, especially roundhouse kicks, than when I was younger. I feel like doing excessive paddle drills leads to knee injuries, especially when you are older. I still use the paddle for ax and spin hook.

That's interesting. I've always quite enjoyed padding drills and don't tend to get injured doing them*, but I guess the time may come. So how would you just drill roundhouse kicks? In the air? Always on a hogu? Something else?

* That said, the only time I've serious injured my knee (resulting in a year's very reduced training and an operation) was while doing a paddle kick, but it was more of the fact we were temporarily training on carpet it was too slippy for bare feet and I switched to Taekwondo shoes during a set of tornado kicks - my foot gripped a lot more on that time and wrenched my knee. I blame the transition to shoes/carpet more than the paddle for that (I'd have done it if I wasn't kicking a paddle).

 

[andyjeffries]

To help somewhat eliminate that problem, I feel Taekwondoin, if they can, should drill at full contact, which is full speed and full power. This will keep your time and distance true.

So, out of interest, how often do your non-elite taekwondoin students drill/spar at full contact? Is it every time (never anything less)? Multiple times per week?

I'm just interested as I'd have always been worried about injuries (minor knocks continuously taking people out of training and major injury concerns).

(P.S. did you get my email?)

 

[mastercole]

So, out of interest, how often do your non-elite taekwondoin students drill/spar at full contact? Is it every time (never anything less)? Multiple times per week?

I'm just interested as I'd have always been worried about injuries (minor knocks continuously taking people out of training and major injury concerns).

(P.S. did you get my email?)

They always drill full speed/full force. Then they drill "promise sparring" which could be called "light contact" sparring I guess. Then depending on the cycle of training and how injuries are doing, they might spar (full contact) 1 to 3 times a week. When we have an elite fighter from Korea staying here for several months, it's more.

At the peak of the cycle it's something like this, 6 days a week;

morning 2 hours workout/track/weights/waterbag
afternoon 2+ hours skills/drills athletic development
even 2+ hours drills/promise spar/sparring

regular students never experience this. it's just for extremely dedicated adults, no kids.

 

[Buka]

I think it is huge mistake to convert to so-called "light sparring only."

The problem with converting your sparring to - light contact only - is that you get lax, adjust to non-lethal non-committed techniques coming at you, and giving back non-lethal non-committed strikes. You get relaxed and no longer hone the killer instinct. It's like War Games with slow fighter jets, slow ships and out in the open tanks. A real war breaks out and gets everyone killed, they were caught off guard by the speed and brutality of the real deal. That is why I say if you are not sparring full contact all out, you are not sparring.

To help somewhat eliminate that problem, I feel Taekwondoin, if they can, should drill at full contact, which is full speed and full power. This will keep your time and distance true. As Glenn said, it will also keep you rolling with the punches, which is maybe the most important element to physical/mental self defense.

If you can no longer roll with the punches so to speak, you are toast if you get attacked by a tough fighter, unless of course you shoot him first.

I don't think I've ever disagreed with anything more.

 

[mastercole]

i don't think i've ever disagreed with anything more.

ok

 

[andyjeffries]

regular students never experience this. it's just for extremely dedicated adults, no kids.

So what do you regular students do? Do they only do "promise sparring" or do they still do full contact every time, just not 3 sessions per day?

Thanks for the information, very interesting.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

All i can say about 'full contact' sparring is that if it's really full contact, and I hit you solid, bones will be broken. Is that what you want me to do to you? Seriously, full-contact on an uke is insane. Most of us and definitely me are way too strong to be hitting people full power whom we do not wish to go to the hospital.

 

[oftheherd1]

All i can say about 'full contact' sparring is that if it's really full contact, and I hit you solid, bones will be broken. Is that what you want me to do to you? Seriously, full-contact on an uke is insane. Most of us and definitely me are way too strong to be hitting people full power whom we do not wish to go to the hospital.

As I have mentioned before, I don't study TKD or Karate. My TKD days were brief and a long time ago. Contact in sparring was not allowed other than in blocks. You were expected to get closer and closer as your skills improved, but never make contact. That said, you were expected to use full speed and power, but not hit, including being able to pull a strike if needed because of a shift by you or your opponent.

The idea was that if you trained yourself so you could stop 1/4 inch from your opponent, if you wanted to, you could stop 1 inch (or more) inside your opponent. I would not have liked to have been hit by the strikes I could throw (legs or hands), much less those who were better/more powerful, than I was.

I guess we could discuss this a lot and never really convince each other to change. But I agree with Bill on this. YMMV

 

[Bill Mattocks]

As I have mentioned before, I don't study TKD or Karate. My TKD days were brief and a long time ago. Contact in sparring was not allowed other than in blocks. You were expected to get closer and closer as your skills improved, but never make contact. That said, you were expected to use full speed and power, but not hit, including being able to pull a strike if needed because of a shift by you or your opponent.

The idea was that if you trained yourself so you could stop 1/4 inch from your opponent, if you wanted to, you could stop 1 inch (or more) inside your opponent. I would not have liked to have been hit by the strikes I could throw (legs or hands), much less those who were better/more powerful, than I was.

I guess we could discuss this a lot and never really convince each other to change. But I agree with Bill on this. YMMV

We definitely hit each other in the dojo; we don't pull punches. We don't hit with full power, but we also don't love-tap. We adjust power based on our partner's preferences; if they say to throw harder or faster, then we do, and if they tell us to back off a bit, we do that too. If a person is hitting too hard, we ask them to back it down; but we also give what we get; if you hit hard, you get hit hard. If we want to throw full-power, we throw next to the head or body instead of landing the blow. For example, I would practice body blows by punching my partner in the body. But if I was practicing uppercuts, I'm not going to punch them in the face. I'll throw it full power but next to their head. It does require focus, and brown belts and up in my dojo are expected to have enough focus to throw full power without hurting anyone.

 

[RobinTKD]

All i can say about 'full contact' sparring is that if it's really full contact, and I hit you solid, bones will be broken. Is that what you want me to do to you? Seriously, full-contact on an uke is insane. Most of us and definitely me are way too strong to be hitting people full power whom we do not wish to go to the hospital.

You practice Isshin-Ryu do you not Bill? I agree with what both you and Master Cole say, but you're both sparring to a different rule set. Isshin-Ryu is quite a 'brutal' (for want of a better word) art, with as much focus on hand strikes in sparring as leg strikes. Master Cole on the other hand I believe trains and teaches in KKW Taekwondo, so I imagine his full contact sparring would be to WTF rules, using chest/head protection, not using punches to the head etc. We train full contact, more like Kyokushinkai than ITF Taekwon-Do it has to be said, but we use foot and hand protection.

In terms of landing a full power blow, well even when sparring full contact, I've probably only managed it a handful of times, usually with a back kick, because when your opponent is constantly moving it's much harder to land a punch or kick at full breaking power. There should always be a level of control involved too, I can pull a full power punch and stop it before it makes contact, and yes, I'd never use say a full power ridge hand against someone, because I'd probably break their jaw, but once again, that's where control comes into it. Also, the ability to take a hard punch/kick is as important as dishing them out.

 

[Manny]

I still enjoy light or even medium sparring. do not see a need to do match level sparring at this point in my life. Light or medium sparring gives me a check on where I am as far as my body goes, if my reactions are slowing, and that sort of thing. I also still enjoy taking a good shot. I still very much enjoy doing hogu drills, especially being the receiver. Doing hogu drills provides a level of conditioning and training that is not available through other methods. What I am leaning away from is paddle drills. Personally, I do way less paddle kicks, especially roundhouse kicks, than when I was younger. I feel like doing excessive paddle drills leads to knee injuries, especially when you are older. I still use the paddle for ax and spin hook.

I agree you don't need to kill the parthner to say you are doing full combat sparring, even light sparring is sparring for me, and yes wrap around the hogu and do kicking drills is very good to condition one's head to recieve a full blow.

Manny

 

[SPX]

A couple of years ago we brought a fighter across from America to fight on one of our MMA shows, he was nearly 60 then, I believe he has only just given up fighting. He's amazingly fit and only his grey hair gave away that he was older than he looked. Skip is a lovely man too.

http://realfighting.com/skip_hall.php

Hey, I remember reading about that guy.

I'd love to hear more about your experience with him. . .

 

[ralphmcpherson]

So, out of interest, how often do your non-elite taekwondoin students drill/spar at full contact? Is it every time (never anything less)? Multiple times per week?

I'm just interested as I'd have always been worried about injuries (minor knocks continuously taking people out of training and major injury concerns).

(P.S. did you get my email?)

You'd be amazed how few injuries there are between people who have always sparred full contact, they have a genuine respect for being hit. My original instructor always said that he would rather see us evade 10 strikes than land 10 strikes. Its all good and well to say that in full contact sparring you will just hit someone and break bones, but spar against people who always spar full contact and it is a lot harder to actually connect because they have always sparred knowing full well that if they get hit they will stay hit. We have people come and train with us who have only ever known light contact sparring and you can always guarantee that on their first night they will get knocked down, over and over again, because their distancing, reflexes, timing, and even the techniques they throw are all based around the fact that they know they cant actually get hurt. I know when we do 'light contact' I jump around all over the place throwing a sea of tornado kicks, spin kicks, jumping kicks etc, then our instructor changes it to full contact and things change big time. Obviously, as a black belt, if Im sparring someone of a lower level I tone it down. For full contact to work well, sparring people of similar level is vital. But I can tell you that in 6 years of doing full contact, I could count the serious injuries Ive seen on one hand (not including the usual bumps and bruises obviously). We also spar under a set ruleset, you cant just go in with throat strikes and eye gouges and groin kicks etc.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

All i can say about 'full contact' sparring is that if it's really full contact, and I hit you solid, bones will be broken. Is that what you want me to do to you? Seriously, full-contact on an uke is insane. Most of us and definitely me are way too strong to be hitting people full power whom we do not wish to go to the hospital.

As I touched on in my last post, matching people up for full contact is very important. If you are so big and strong then obviously we wouldnt match you up with a teenager who weighs 60kg soaking wet. We also wear a hogu and leg and instep guards, and gloves. With big boxing gloves punching into a hogu it would have to be a gret punch to break ribs, either that or your partner is clearly not evading properly and is just standing there waiting to get hit, in which case the two opponents havent been matched up very well. I know when I spar good black belts they are so quick they move in the blink of an eye which makes nailing them with a perfect punch or kick very very hard to do.

 

[SPX]

I know when we do 'light contact' I jump around all over the place throwing a sea of tornado kicks, spin kicks, jumping kicks etc, then our instructor changes it to full contact and things change big time.

A LOL-worthy description. But I hear what you're saying. I have noticed a general trend that as danger increases, techniques decrease. Light contact TKD or karate? Jump kicks, spin kicks, kick to the head, drop down and do the splits like Van Damme to mock your opponent after landing one of the aforementioned kicks. . . Bar fight? Punches.

And then adjust between those extremes for everything else.

Still though, you gotta admit, sparring under a contact level/ruleset that allows for flashiness and flying through the air can be pretty fun.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

A LOL-worthy description. But I hear what you're saying. I have noticed a general trend that as danger increases, so do the techniques. Light contact TKD or karate? Jump kicks, spin kicks, kick to the head, drop down and do the splits like Van Damme to mock your opponent after landing one of the aforementioned kicks. . . Bar fight? Punches.

And then adjust between those extremes for everything else.

Still though, you gotta admit, sparring under a contact level/ruleset that allows for flashiness and flying through the air can be pretty fun.

Quite true, but bar fight = punches?, not always. Ive seen many a fight end with a kick, I dont mean crazy flashy kicks and I dont mean someone with no training flailing their leg out like they are kicking a football. I went to school with a good tkdist, he was very fast and very powerful. Every fight I saw him in ended very quickly with him landing a front or side kick somewhere between knee height or just below the ribs, the other guy would drop and roll around in agony while he walked away. A couple of years ago I was at restaurant and a fight broke out in the carpark. There was a lot of pushing and shoving and then one guy threw a punch, the other guy evaded the punch and landed a side kick immediately to the other guys solar plexus. I dead set thought he had killed the other guy. I later found out the 'kicker' was a tkdist. Kicks work big time as long as they are 'realistic' and not some lame *** attempt at at a 540 kick or something.

 

[SPX]

Quite true, but bar fight = punches?, not always. Ive seen many a fight end with a kick, I dont mean crazy flashy kicks and I dont mean someone with no training flailing their leg out like they are kicking a football. I went to school with a good tkdist, he was very fast and very powerful. Every fight I saw him in ended very quickly with him landing a front or side kick somewhere between knee height or just below the ribs, the other guy would drop and roll around in agony while he walked away. A couple of years ago I was at restaurant and a fight broke out in the carpark. There was a lot of pushing and shoving and then one guy threw a punch, the other guy evaded the punch and landed a side kick immediately to the other guys solar plexus. I dead set thought he had killed the other guy. I later found out the 'kicker' was a tkdist. Kicks work big time as long as they are 'realistic' and not some lame *** attempt at at a 540 kick or something.

I was just drawing a contrast between extremes. I do believe that kicks can be used effectively in a self-defense situation, even a fast and strong headkick.

I have heard a lot of people say that they would not kick in an SD situation, though. But everyone has their own ideas about what's best. Some say don't kick at all. Some say don't kick above the waist. Some say don't kick to the head. Etc. . .

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I was just drawing a contrast between extremes. I do believe that kicks can be used effectively in a self-defense situation, even a fast and strong headkick.

I have heard a lot of people say that they would not kick in an SD situation, though. But everyone has their own ideas about what's best. Some say don't kick at all. Some say don't kick above the waist. Some say don't kick to the head. Etc. . .

I think whether or not you would kick in a 'real' situation' depends on if you are a 'kicker'. When I was younger I did karate, we did some kicking but there was not a lot of emphasis on kicking and to be honest I really dont think I would have used a kick to defend myself. These days, after 6 years of tkd and a lot of extra training in my own time, I would consider myself a kicker and I honestly think if I was being attacked I would kick, almost as an involuntary action. I feel comfortable kicking, my kicks are stronger and more accurate than my punches (even though we do a lot of punching) and kicking just comes naturally to me now. I think kicking gets a bad wrap because far too many people do 6 months of tkd and get in a fight and try to kick. There is a massive difference between a competent tkd black belt kicking and just some regular guy throwing their leg out wildly. A kick from someone who knows what they are doing is devastating.

 

[Cyriacus]

I was just drawing a contrast between extremes. I do believe that kicks can be used effectively in a self-defense situation, even a fast and strong headkick.

I have heard a lot of people say that they would not kick in an SD situation, though. But everyone has their own ideas about what's best. Some say don't kick at all. Some say don't kick above the waist. Some say don't kick to the head. Etc. . .

Fighting in a Street sense can range from wild hooks with the odd swing of the leg, to Right Hooks whilst trying to grab with the Left Hand, to 6-10 Punch flurries, to trying to throw each other with quick hooks thrown in, to any number of things. The way I see it, as long as Youre doing what comes best to YOU, it will have a good chance of working. I, personally, wouldnt Kick above My Chest Height. I prefer Punching, mostly Parallel Height, switching idiopathically between Straight, Hook, and Shovel Hook type hits, with the odd Uppercut. And I dont really use any Kicks besides Front Kicks, with Side Kicks thrown in about as often as Uppercuts. Theres also Spinning Back Fists, which I would use like a Sledgehammer.

And Im practically certain You could find Me ALOT of folks who would use a Round Kick/Roundhouse Kick over a Front Kick any day, where I tend to avoid them. I prefer Punching Parallel to actually aiming at anything. I figure, itll hit anything from the Head to the Solar Plexus. Others swing mainly at the Head. Others for the Midsection.
Much in the same way, Im sure High Kicks come better, and more readily to some People. Therefore, if thats what comes to them, its what They should do, rather than confusing their Instincts.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Fighting in a Street sense can range from wild hooks with the odd swing of the leg, to Right Hooks whilst trying to grab with the Left Hand, to 6-10 Punch flurries, to trying to throw each other with quick hooks thrown in, to any number of things. The way I see it, as long as Youre doing what comes best to YOU, it will have a good chance of working. I, personally, wouldnt Kick above My Chest Height. I prefer Punching, mostly Parallel Height, switching idiopathically between Straight, Hook, and Shovel Hook type hits, with the odd Uppercut. And I dont really use any Kicks besides Front Kicks, with Side Kicks thrown in about as often as Uppercuts. Theres also Spinning Back Fists, which I would use like a Sledgehammer.

And Im practically certain You could find Me ALOT of folks who would use a Round Kick/Roundhouse Kick over a Front Kick any day, where I tend to avoid them. I prefer Punching Parallel to actually aiming at anything. I figure, itll hit anything from the Head to the Solar Plexus. Others swing mainly at the Head. Others for the Midsection.
Much in the same way, Im sure High Kicks come better, and more readily to some People. Therefore, if thats what comes to them, its what They should do, rather than confusing their Instincts.

When I hear people say that "head kicks can never work on the street", I always think of this one guy I train with. He is a little over 6 foot, looks unathletic and is slightly overweight. He will stand there and just kick people in the head at will. I hate sparring him because although I know Im quicker than him and I know he will just try to kick my head off, he still just kicks me in the head whenever he wants to. My instructor once said to me that the scariest thing about sparring this guy is that whenever he isnt kicking your head, its because he doesnt want to. It always leads me to think that if he kicks me at will, and I know thats what he will do and Im waiting for it and I am trained to avoid it, just imagine him agaisnt some regular guy on the street who has no idea that this guy is a 'head hunter' and has no real training to defend a head kick. When people say head kicks cant work, I always think of that guy.