Weapon/Tool Development/Anthropology... Formerly Blocking useless?

[pdg]

I don't know enough on the topic to speak definitively

I don't either.

All I can do is say that I definitively think something, and theorise.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

the matterial IS the,design, try making a football out of stone and youl see what i mean

You could make one out of vinyl (and they do).

 

[jobo]

I don't know enough on the topic to speak definitively, but there are some technologies that simply aren't likely to develop within a nomadic society. They won't develop those technologies THEN stop being nomadic. Mining seems one of those. It takes a lot of work to mine and smelt metal ore, and I can't see there'd be any payoff to a society to do that if they aren't staying put - or at least keeping only two locations (summer/winter), so the mine and facility is at hand a large part of the year.

In some places I don't doubt the retention of nomadic was is linked to the difficulty in farming. I suspect the inverse is also sometimes true (the move to agrarian ways is due difficulty in nomadic life). If the nomadic life is easy enough (as it is likely to be in temperate areas with sufficient natural flora and fauna, with no competing tribes nearby), I suspect some groups opt to keep that approach.

yes but ALL societies where nomadic, yet did develop the technology to stop being nomadic

some southern american native tribes stopped being nomadic, but lagged the euroasia natives by several thousand years in technology

as good percentage of the north American tribes, were bot nomadic and did farm and mine, yet they were further behind in tech then there south American cousins.

just saying they were nomads and couldn't progress, is ignoring the fact that a lit were not nomads and did progress, just not very far

 

[Gerry Seymour]

bur it's shape, its weight distribution and it's functionality are all dependent on the matterial used . If i build a house out of Lego, it requires a completely different design to if i use bricks, though the end result will have some,similarities, which as over,all dimensions and colour, if i use red lego, so that's the,aesthetic element

While your extreme example is true, a knife can be made of obsidian or steel, with quite similar designs. A hammer can be made of rock or bronze with quite similar designs. They'll function differently (there's a reason metal is generally preferred once it's discovered), but the design from the rock version can be copied in metal.

 

[jobo]

You could make one out of vinyl (and they do).

i know, cows bladders are so 1800s

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yes but ALL societies where nomadic, yet did develop the technology to stop being nomadic

some southern american native tribes stopped being nomadic, but lagged the euroasia natives by several thousand years in technology

as good percentage of the north American tribes, were bot nomadic and did farm and mine, yet they were further behind in tech then there south American cousins.

just saying they were nomads and couldn't progress, is ignoring the fact that a lit were not nomads and did progress, just not very far

I'd argue they developed the technology as they needed. They probably started as stationary hunter-gatherers (perhaps because of climate, perhaps because of encroaching tribes, etc.). That can only work for a while - they'd deplete resources. Then they figure out the basic (no plowing needed) agrarianism and perhaps animal husbandry. None of that requires metal and such, but gives them the ability to stay in place long enough for such discoveries to take place.

 

[pdg]

The mountains further East would never have been an obstacle to travel. Anyone in average shape can hike over one of those, and the weather in them is only marginally harsher than the surrounding area.

Maybe not an obstacle to a nomadic tribe.

Which would further expand the area over which competing tribes can range.

But, as an individual or a small part of a tribe, would you necessarily want to cross them purely for exploration purposes, when you can't say whether you can find food (and have nothing of note storable to carry) and the rest of your tribe is under 'constant' threat of attack?

 

[jobo]

While your extreme example is true, a knife can be made of obsidian or steel, with quite similar designs. A hammer can be made of rock or bronze with quite similar designs. They'll function differently (there's a reason metal is generally preferred once it's discovered), but the design from the rock version can be copied in metal.

yes it could, but then you would have a bad iron hammer, with the head held on with string and no bit on one end for pulling nails out.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i know, cows bladders are so 1800s

You said changing materials would change the design. It doesn't have to. As long as you're not substituting rock for leather or some other silly example.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe not an obstacle to a nomadic tribe.

Which would further expand the area over which competing tribes can range.

But, as an individual or a small part of a tribe, would you necessarily want to cross them purely for exploration purposes, when you can't say whether you can find food (and have nothing of note storable to carry) and the rest of your tribe is under 'constant' threat of attack?

With those mountains, unless there was a competing tribe nearby (and there often wasn't - many of the tribes had plenty of room to roam) food wouldn't be an issue. They are filled with game year-round, and most plants found at the foot of a mountain here are also found 90% of the way up. It's just not a harsh environment, so a nomadic group or an individual could easily traverse it at will. The only disadvantage would be speed of travel and how much you could carry, so of course they'd favor the flatter routes, but there wouldn't' have been a lot of those in some tribal areas (like much of the Cherokee lands).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yes it could, but then you would have a bad iron hammer, with the head held on with string and no bit on one end for pulling nails out.

If you have no nails, you don't need the end for pulling nails. And yes, it might not be as good a design as what could be done later. That's why designs progress - as the design of the tomahawk did, both due to the availability of better material, and borrowing ideas from European axes.

 

[lklawson]

It had something to do with martial arts, I think. Or beading. Maybe it was beading.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[pdg]

yes it could, but then you would have a bad iron hammer, with the head held on with string and no bit on one end for pulling nails out.

Erm...

I have a few hammers, and mallets, that look hammery...

Amongst them are hammers made of - or with striking surfaces comprising of - hide, plastic, rubber, copper, steel, other iron alloys, aluminium, lead.

Then there's the shafts/handles - wood, metal, fibreglass/other composite. Some have separate grips (rubber or hide).

I'd say maybe 10% of them have "a bit on one end for pulling nails out", because the rest aren't designed for carpentry.

There's also a variety of methods to attach the head to the shaft - tapered hole with wedges, straight hole with cross pins, straight hole with lugs for binding, hole in the shaft that the head passes through, etc.

They're all hammers though, and they all hit stuff.

 

[pdg]

Oops, I forgot wood as one of the striking faces - like the wooden mallet I use for striking chisels.

And a different shape wooden mallet that was developed for fitting lock pins.

 

[jobo]

If you have no nails, you don't need the end for pulling nails. And yes, it might not be as good a design as what could be done later. That's why designs progress - as the design of the tomahawk did, both due to the availability of better material, and borrowing ideas from European axes.

no my point is the properties of the matterial change the design, no one is going to recreate a,stone hammer in iron, the,stone hammers design was limited by its matterial, there is no pint recreating design flaws in a superior matterial. As,soon as they invented metal hammers, they invented the nail

 

[pdg]

With those mountains, unless there was a competing tribe nearby (and there often wasn't - many of the tribes had plenty of room to roam) food wouldn't be an issue. They are filled with game year-round, and most plants found at the foot of a mountain here are also found 90% of the way up. It's just not a harsh environment, so a nomadic group or an individual could easily traverse it at will. The only disadvantage would be speed of travel and how much you could carry, so of course they'd favor the flatter routes, but there wouldn't' have been a lot of those in some tribal areas (like much of the Cherokee lands).

Well in that case (maybe the point you were making in the first place?) they aren't really obstacles, just a part of the environment that's available to range, thereby increasing the size of the relatively easily habitable area and effectively reducing competition and the subsequent need to develop new solutions.

 

[jobo]

Erm...

I have a few hammers, and mallets, that look hammery...

Amongst them are hammers made of - or with striking surfaces comprising of - hide, plastic, rubber, copper, steel, other iron alloys, aluminium, lead.

Then there's the shafts/handles - wood, metal, fibreglass/other composite. Some have separate grips (rubber or hide).

I'd say maybe 10% of them have "a bit on one end for pulling nails out", because the rest aren't designed for carpentry.

There's also a variety of methods to attach the head to the shaft - tapered hole with wedges, straight hole with cross pins, straight hole with lugs for binding, hole in the shaft that the head passes through, etc.

They're all hammers though, and they all hit stuff.

those are mallets, you cant hammer with a mallet by defintion.

you can strike or knock it thump, but only hammers can hammer, ,

 

[pdg]

no my point is the properties of the matterial change the design, no one is going to recreate a,stone hammer in iron, the,stone hammers design was limited by its matterial, there is no pint recreating design flaws in a superior matterial. As,soon as they invented metal hammers, they invented the nail

According to a quick google, metal nails predate metal hammers...

Maybe because it's easier to make a nail than a hammer, and you can drive a nail with a rock.

those are mallets, you cant hammer with a mallet by defintion.

you can strike or knock it thump, but only hammers can hammer, ,

The earliest metal hammers I found pictures of in the last 2 minutes look surprisingly like slightly better finished stone mallets...



Oh, and if you really want to restrict it to things actually sold as hammers, then - claw, ball pein, cross pein, roofing. They all look different and have different uses, and only one of those can remove nails.

Oh, and sledge hammer - looks a sight like a big mallet to me

 

[jobo]

That's a different span of area. France is slightly larger than the state of Texas. I don't think the same level of physical distinction occurred over the same geographic span in the Americas. There's definitely a recognizable difference between most Eastern US aboriginal tribes and those in the Southwest. But that's equivalent to opposite corners of Europe, not neighbor states.

i see European history is a bit lacking, the French are celts, that took over much of Europe, there is very little,difference between the,French, the welsh the Spanish and the Italians. The germanic tribes had significant differences, so Sweden, Norway Germany Poland England etc are much the same as,each other and very different to the,celts. It's nit proximity that makes a difference to the national look, so much as who invaded who .

 

[jobo]

According to a quick google, metal nails predate metal hammers...

Maybe because it's easier to make a nail than a hammer, and you can drive a nail with a rock.



The earliest metal hammers I found pictures of in the last 2 minutes look surprisingly like slightly better finished stone mallets...



Oh, and if you really want to restrict it to things actually sold as hammers, then - claw, ball pein, cross pein, roofing. They all look different and have different uses, and only one of those can remove nails.

Oh, and sledge hammer - looks a sight like a big mallet to me

the intrinsic difference between a mallet and a hammer is it purpose, hammers are hard designed to hit as hard as possible with out damaging the hammer, mallets are soft( er) designed to deform so not as to damage the thing being hit