Weapon/Tool Development/Anthropology... Formerly Blocking useless?

[JowGaWolf]

i should also add that at one point the most advanced civilization was the middle east. they invented our "arabic" writting and math. the library was full of knowledge from all over the globe..
where are they today?? and why??

They burned their library of knowledge and declared knowledge to be unholy. Then history repeated itself when the Taliban started destroying schools and museums that contained their past history.
But back to pre-taliban,Thanks to the interaction with other cultures and countries that learned from those people (forgot exactly who) a great deal of the knowledge was saved.

I want to say Alexander the Great was the one who saved the information by creating a library of his own that had some of that information. So the story goes.

To put it in a Martial Arts perspective, we can say the same with the functionality of Chinese Martial Arts. Where many in China say that martial arts isn't for fighting, it's the west that is actually doing a lot to preserve the functionality of it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's definitely the case with me. If a dog up for adoption can make an adorable face at me, I'm liable to end up with a new dog. "Strongest" doesn't really matter. "Cutest" gets better food.

You must have watched the same show that I watched, that talked about the history of the dog. They said the same thing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

here is an article on why some species can not be tamed. and the Zebra thing is mentioned as a very rare case.
Why Can't All Animals Be Domesticated?


domestic animals cannot have a strong tendency to panic and flee when startled.
ever see what happens when bison get agitated??

.

this kid almost died ......

Good information. I learned something new. I guess that's why the first Europeans never bothered to use them as beast of burden to plow the fields.

 

[JowGaWolf]

well they hunted at least 35 species to extinction, including the ground sloth, the American lion and the,short faced bear, so clearly not that bothered about fauna interference

 

[Anarax]

They burned their library of knowledge and declared knowledge to be unholy.

What are you basing this on? I'm curious on the source you used.

i should also add that at one point the most advanced civilization was the middle east. they invented our "arabic" writting and math. the library was full of knowledge from all over the globe..
where are they today?? and why??

First, I do not think the explanation I'm about to give is the only reason for the state of some middle eastern countries today. There are other factors that have and are at work today, I'm just giving the more economic side of it.

The biggest economic factor that attributed in the decline of the Middle East(pre-USA) was the Frankincense trade. For thousands of years Frankincense was one the of the largest Arab exports that made up a huge part of their economy. Frankincense was mostly used in temples and religious ceremonies as incense. The major shift from polytheism to monotheism throughout many countries resulted in a massive reduction in religious temples, who were the biggest consumers of Frankincense. This meant that only a small fraction of Frankincense would be required now than before. The Arabs built a lot of their economy around Frankincense, thus the massive reduction in demand nearly crippled their economy. However; they persevered and managed as best as they could, some countries fared better than others, but overall the Middle East went through a long economical depression. Many years passed until they discovered oil, and it revitalized some Middle Eastern countries' economies.

I agree that Arabs have played a significant part in scientific history and sometimes some of there contributions are brushed over. I'm not saying it's intentional, but it is evident. 2/3 of visible stars have Arabic names and Algebra is Arabic for "to make even" or "to rejoin".

 

[pdg]

Which makes a thing more fit for it's environment. Hence fittest.

Exactly, best fit.

Fittest doesn't mean strongest in most cases, it means best fit...

If the environment is in a manmade field, doing service to man then the traits that become prominent are going to be the ones that best fit - being docile one of the main ones.

Good information. I learned something new. I guess that's why the first Europeans never bothered to use them as beast of burden to plow the fields.

I personally think that article is wrong due to being very short sighted.

It describes elephants as being unsuitable for domestication, yet they can be seen "working for" humans daily in some places.

The animal modern cattle comes from is described as being particularly vicious and wont to attack anything that it perceives as a threat - even more so than bison.

Just how long do you think it took to breed those traits out?

Why, as a settler, spend maybe 50-100+ years domesticating an animal when you have a perfectly serviceable alternative on hand already?

 

[hoshin1600]

What are you basing this on? I'm curious on the source you used.

First, I do not think the explanation I'm about to give is the only reason for the state of some middle eastern countries today. There are other factors that have and are at work today, I'm just giving the more economic side of it.

The biggest economic factor that attributed in the decline of the Middle East(pre-USA) was the Frankincense trade. For thousands of years Frankincense was one the of the largest Arab exports that made up a huge part of their economy. Frankincense was mostly used in temples and religious ceremonies as incense. The major shift from polytheism to monotheism throughout many countries resulted in a massive reduction in religious temples, who were the biggest consumers of Frankincense. This meant that only a small fraction of Frankincense would be required now than before. The Arabs built a lot of their economy around Frankincense, thus the massive reduction in demand nearly crippled their economy. However; they persevered and managed as best as they could, some countries fared better than others, but overall the Middle East went through a long economical depression. Many years passed until they discovered oil, and it revitalized some Middle Eastern countries' economies.

I agree that Arabs have played a significant part in scientific history and sometimes some of there contributions are brushed over. I'm not saying it's intentional, but it is evident. 2/3 of visible stars have Arabic names and Algebra is Arabic for "to make even" or "to rejoin".

I agree with Jow gar wolf. The explanation I remember was the rejection of knowledge due to religion.

 

[pdg]

Talk about a hijacked thread lol.

It's been an interesting hijack though, and it'd be a shame (imo) to lose the discussion.

If it's deemed to far off topic could the anthropological discussion get parted and moved instead of thrown away?

 

[pdg]

This quoted because latest message on the subject:

I agree with Jow gar wolf. The explanation I remember was the rejection of knowledge due to religion.

I can't comment on anything so modern...

My previous field of interest has been how civilisation developed from "ug" level through to trade/conflict.

That can include ritualistic activities to attract rain and ward off wind, but then I pretty much stop.

As soon as organised religion enters the fray, logic and reason pack their bags and leave...

 

[jobo]

They burned their library of knowledge and declared knowledge to be unholy. Then history repeated itself when the Taliban started destroying schools and museums that contained their past history.
But back to pre-taliban,Thanks to the interaction with other cultures and countries that learned from those people (forgot exactly who) a great deal of the knowledge was saved.

I want to say Alexander the Great was the one who saved the information by creating a library of his own that had some of that information. So the story goes.

To put it in a Martial Arts perspective, we can say the same with the functionality of Chinese Martial Arts. Where many in China say that martial arts isn't for fighting, it's the west that is actually doing a lot to preserve the functionality of it.

you seem to be mixing up your time lines, the library at Alexandra was burnt by the romans, this was about a thousand years Before the rise if Islam and any book burning that may have gone on, as a result of that. Alexander the great had been dead over 500 years when Mohamed was born, I'm not sure how you think he saved anything

what is now the Islamic world kept the knowledge of man kind alive, through the dark ages and through the persecution of science by the Christian church, this slowed progress by about a thousand years, only in the,1600s did western science take of again, so over a thousand years of being stifled by god. I'm not sure why you are blaming Islam for this

 

[JowGaWolf]

What are you basing this on? I'm curious on the source you used.

I watched a history document long ago so my memory may be off on it. So I looked it up to see where I was off. Here is where I wasn't as accurate. using the source The Burning of the Library of Alexandria | eHISTORY
"Alexandria was founded in Egypt by Alexander the Great. His successor as Pharaoh, Ptolemy I Soter, founded the Museum (also called Museum of Alexandria, Greek Mouseion, “Seat of the Muses”) or Royal Library of Alexandria in 283 BC."

" It contained It has been estimated that at one time the Library of Alexandria held over half a million documents from Assyria, Greece, Persia, Egypt, India and many other nations."

"The final individual to get blamed for the destruction is the Moslem Caliph Omar. In 640 AD the Moslems took the city of Alexandria. Upon learning of "a great library containing all the knowledge of the world" the conquering general supposedly asked Caliph Omar for instructions. The Caliph has been quoted as saying of the Library's holdings, "they will either contradict the Koran, in which case they are heresy, or they will agree with it, so they are superfluous." So, allegedly, all the texts were destroyed by using them as tinder for the bathhouses of the city. Even then it was said to have taken six months to burn all the documents. But these details, from the Caliph's quote to the incredulous six months it supposedly took to burn all the books, weren't written down until 300 years after the fact. These facts condemning Omar were written by Bishop Gregory Bar Hebræus, a Christian who spent a great deal of time writing about Moslem atrocities without much historical documentation."

After reading. There are 3 main stories about who burned the library. One involved Julius Caesar, The other was it was lost in a natural decline of the Roman Empire, and the last story is that the Moslems burned then the library because they believed it contradicted the Koran. Which is the same reason the Modern Taliban destroyed libraries. It was the third story that I had learned. I don't remember the original documentary that I watch but it was from a reliable source. My mind just didn't remember it accurately. Along with the accuracy of my initial thoughts about it. But after researching I now remember.

"I was thinking that Alexander the Great saved the knowledge because he created the library which allowed the knowledge to spread across cultures." Had it not been for the library much of the knowledge would have been lost. Here's a video of the 3 stories. around the 42:00 mark

 

[jobo]

I watched a history document long ago so my memory may be off on it. So I looked it up to see where I was off. Here is where I wasn't as accurate. using the source The Burning of the Library of Alexandria | eHISTORY
"Alexandria was founded in Egypt by Alexander the Great. His successor as Pharaoh, Ptolemy I Soter, founded the Museum (also called Museum of Alexandria, Greek Mouseion, “Seat of the Muses”) or Royal Library of Alexandria in 283 BC."

" It contained It has been estimated that at one time the Library of Alexandria held over half a million documents from Assyria, Greece, Persia, Egypt, India and many other nations."

"The final individual to get blamed for the destruction is the Moslem Caliph Omar. In 640 AD the Moslems took the city of Alexandria. Upon learning of "a great library containing all the knowledge of the world" the conquering general supposedly asked Caliph Omar for instructions. The Caliph has been quoted as saying of the Library's holdings, "they will either contradict the Koran, in which case they are heresy, or they will agree with it, so they are superfluous." So, allegedly, all the texts were destroyed by using them as tinder for the bathhouses of the city. Even then it was said to have taken six months to burn all the documents. But these details, from the Caliph's quote to the incredulous six months it supposedly took to burn all the books, weren't written down until 300 years after the fact. These facts condemning Omar were written by Bishop Gregory Bar Hebræus, a Christian who spent a great deal of time writing about Moslem atrocities without much historical documentation."

After reading. There are 3 main stories about who burned the library. One involved Julius Caesar, The other was it was lost in a natural decline of the Roman Empire, and the last story is that the Moslems burned then the library because they believed it contradicted the Koran. Which is the same reason the Modern Taliban destroyed libraries. It was the third story that I had learned. I don't remember the original documentary that I watch but it was from a reliable source. My mind just didn't remember it accurately. Along with the accuracy of my initial thoughts about it. But after researching I now remember.

"I was thinking that Alexander the Great saved the knowledge because he created the library which allowed the knowledge to spread across cultures." Had it not been for the library much of the knowledge would have been lost. Here's a video of the 3 stories. around the 42:00 mark

your still mixing things up, the book burning you describe was in what is now Iraq, the library of Alexandra wasn't in Iraq, it was as the name,suggest in Alexandra, which is in Egypt

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just how long do you think it took to breed those traits out?

Why, as a settler, spend maybe 50-100+ years domesticating an animal when you have a perfectly serviceable alternative on hand already?

That makes sense too. You wouldn't because there would be no need for it. Inventions and advancements usually come out of the need to do something better. Even the inventions by mistakes were born out of trying to improve on something or trying to develop something to meet a need.

I don't know what kind of effort it would take to domesticate a bison back, but I'm pretty sure that injuries back then were a bigger threat than they are now and taking unnecessary risks would be frowned upon.

you seem to be mixing up your time lines

Yes I was. I went back to check my statement and I saw where I was getting things mixed up. Book Burning (destruction of knowledge) however is known to have happen in history. It happened in Europe, Asia, and Africa. It's happened in the past and in modern times. When people want to oppress knowledge or a people they tend to destroy records of it and outlaw the practice of that knowledge. The one thing that seems to be true about knowledge is that if a culture wants that knowledge to survive then, the best way to do it, is to spread it beyond that culture's borders.

I think this is one of the frustrations I have with "Secret Martial Arts" that only a few people can take. That's a recipe for extinction.

 

[JowGaWolf]

your still mixing things up, the book burning you describe was in what is now Iraq, the library of Alexandra wasn't in Iraq, it was as the name,suggest in Alexandra, which is in Egypt

No I'm not mixing things up. Taliban was just an example, of a group that did the same thing and used the Koran as a reason for burning the knowledge. I was describing 2 separate events in which knowledge was destroyed with the Koran being used a the reason to validate the destruction, even if some of that knowledge was their own knowledge. One was an ancient event and the other was a modern event.

The reason I used a modern event is to show that it's not a far fetched idea.

 

[jobo]

No I'm not mixing things up. Taliban was just an example, of a group that did the same thing and used the Koran as a reason for burning the knowledge. I was describing 2 separate events in which knowledge was destroyed with the Koran being used a the reason to validate the destruction, even if some of that knowledge was their own knowledge. One was an ancient event and the other was a modern event.

you said quite clearly twice they burn the. library at Alexandra, they did not, what they burnt was a library in Iraq .

 

[jobo]

you are aware that the Christian church has burnt books that didn't agree with the bible? You seem to be singing out Islam for book burning, when the Christians were at least as bad for destroying non religious text (and killing the author), to destroy science

 

[JowGaWolf]

you said quite clearly twice they burn the. library at Alexandra, they did not, what they burnt was a library in Iraq .

Sorry that was not clear. I was referring to twice they burned their own knowledge. The library included the knowledge from "everywhere" including their own, so if you believe the story about them burning their library then that is twice that they destroyed their own knowledge.

Normally you have one culture destroying another cultures knowledge so that only one cultural influence will control things. It's rare for a culture to destroy it's own knowledge because that's the knowledge that you want to be dominant. However Muslims have done it twice. China has done it once, Christians have done it once, Not sure if Japan has ever done that. But I know the other groups have. I know at one time Japan was against outside knowledge but I don't think they destroyed their own knowledge in any point of its history.

 

[hoshin1600]

you are aware that the Christian church has burnt books that didn't agree with the bible? You seem to be singing out Islam for book burning, when the Christians were at least as bad for destroying non religious text (and killing the author), to destroy science

the key concept however is the muslims were and are active in destroying all historically significant artifacts. books, temples, statues, you name it they are actively destroying them.

 

[jobo]

Sorry that was not clear. I was referring to twice they burned their own knowledge. The library included the knowledge from "everywhere" including their own, so if you believe the story about them burning their library then that is twice that they destroyed their own knowledge.

Normally you have one culture destroying another cultures knowledge so that only one cultural influence will control things. It's rare for a culture to destroy it's own knowledge because that's the knowledge that you want to be dominant. However Muslims have done it twice. China has done it once, Christians have done it once, Not sure if Japan has ever done that. But I know the other groups have. I know at one time Japan was against outside knowledge but I don't think they destroyed their own knowledge in any point of its history.

Christians have done it ONCE, Christians have done it thousands of times, if IT is supressing science literature and killing the,scientist,

 

[pdg]

When it comes to societal indiscretions, there's no such thing as a blameless religion...

And I shan't comment further on this particular subject.