Weapon Retention

[lklawson]

In any case, I have a little trouble imagining a modern-day self-defense news item that would involve both the assailant and the victim tossing knives at each other.

Because we have guns and we're smart enough to use them when they're available.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

No one carries a single shot handgun for self defense.

Agree!

Many years ago in Taiwan when I were young, I had problem with some gang members. One gang member said that he would kill me next time we met. Since I didn't belong to any gang group, I had to protect myself. Since handgun was impossible to obtain in Taiwan. I always carried 3 throwing knifes with me. This way my chance would be better.

When your life was threaten, the legal problem would be the last thing that you considered. That life experience changed my view about MA. To me, learning MA is as simple as "not to be killed".

 

[Aiki Lee]

I gotta go with lklawson on this one. Knife throwing or shuriken skills do have self defense capabilities. They are actually medium range skills used in the ways lklawson already said such as distraction to flee or as a set up for the next attack. I would throw a weapon I had at an attacker if I felt it would be more advantageous that keeping it in my hand.
Oh and Bill, Isshin Ryu does have a kata where one throws a sai. Kusan ku sai was taught to me by my instructor that stated one should actually have 3 sai at the beginning. One to throw and the other two for the rest of the kata. Because its dangerous to throw weapons, it is practiced with usually only two sai with the third being an application explained through bunkai.

 

[szorn]

Bill started this thread in the GMA section. A few of the posts caught my eye, with the mention of the badguy possibly taking away your weapon and using it against you.

So, I wanted to start this thread and discuss weapon retention. Since many people carry a pocketknife or handgun, does anyone work on the retention of those tools? IMO, I think that this is an important area. I mean, if you're going to take the time to learn how to use the weapon, it'd be wise to also learn how to prevent it from being taken away from you.

Yes, retention of the tool is important if you plan to carry. As I am fond of pointing out, a weapon does no good if you can't access it or retain it under the stress of a real assault. That being said, many instructors make retention more complicated or complex than it needs to be. Others will teach weapon fixation, which means they get so caught up in holding on to the weapon that they fail to see openings or other options.

That said, retention should be taught, before the weapon is drawn as well how to retain it once it's drawn. Retention may be as simple as striking a vital target on the attacker as he tries to disarm you. If the attacker is fixating on your weapon and trying to disarm you, take that opportunity to focus on attacking his vitals rather than fighting for dominance of the weapon. As long as his mind is engaged by the weapon you have a tactical advantage. The retention techniques that you train should be universal. This means they should be the same or very similar regardless of the weapon involved (knife, gun, baton, pepper spray, etc). If the techniques vary from weapon to weapon it can cause physical and mental log jam if you have to actually use the skills during an attack. Keep it simple and don't over-complicate it.

Steve

 

[szorn]

I don't want to be seen as insulting any particular style. I admit my first reaction to the notion of people carrying around throwing knives for the purpose of self-defense in today's society was to laugh. I apologize for that.

However, I would like to point something out. In terms of legal self-defense in the United States, I do not believe throwing knives have a place used as such.

Why?

Because unlike a gun, or a knife as a stabbing/slashing weapon, a throwing knife must be thrown. To do that, there must be distance between the assailant and the victim who is doing the throwing.

The notion has been expressed in this thread that this is exactly what a person armed with throwing knives does in self-defense; they break contact and create distance, then chuck knives at the assailant.

And this is where, I believe, the notion of LEGAL self-defense breaks down, at least as applied in the USA.

One of our basic notions about self-defense is that it is legal when a person is in great bodily danger. Some states require a victim to attempt to leave first; others do not require it ('stand your ground' laws, etc). But in every case I can think of, if you create the necessary distance between yourself and your assailant before you begin whipping knives at him, you are no longer in the same danger you were in prior to creating that distance.

In other words, if you can run away far enough to throw knives at him, you can just keep running instead.

Personally, I have never heard of someone in the US defending themselves with throwing knives. I guess that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but frankly, I think the entire notion is in the realm of fantasy. I'm not saying a person can't throw knives accurately, or that it's not an established part of some martial arts, so I am not putting it down; I'm just saying that I don't think it would fly as an appropriate response to an attack in a real-life self-defense situation in the USA.

Sorry, but I could not keep pretending that this kind of fantasy has any place in reality. My apologies if I am offending anyone, I'm not trying to.

Well said!

The reality is that a knife is a lethal force tool designed for lethal force situations. That said, in order to justify the use of a knife in self-defense we must prove AOJ (Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy). if we can't prove AOJ then there is a real good chance we will face criminal charges and end up in jail. If you are far enough away from an attacker to be able to use throwing knives then you can't prove AOJ because the distance was too great for the attacker to be an immediate threat to your life UNLESS he was armed with a firearm, or a knife of his own. Even if the situation warranted lethal force what are the chances that you could hit a violently moving threat with a throwing knife? If you are able to hit the target it most likely will not be with the tip of the blade but with the spine or handle. Can this hurt a person? Sure, but it's not likely it will drastically slow or stop their forward momentum if they are intent on harming or killing you. Also, something else to consider...in many states and jurisdictions throwing knives are considered to be "martial arts weapons" and are illegal to carry.

If anyone believes they may be forced to use their skills in defense of themselves or someone else they should invest some time learning about self-defense laws, especially in their state and jurisdiction. Keep in mind that most cities / towns have their own laws that append the state laws. Learn them well or you may find yourself facing criminal charges for what you believed to be legitimate self-defense.

Steve

 

[chinto]

weapons retention... as in a pistol? I was taught to use a pistol long ago, and one of the biggest weapons retention things is simple.. if it is drawn shoot it! its not a magic wand!! it makes holes... if its serious enough to draw its serious enough to shoot! no Talking and sure as hell no walking up and putting against some one!!!

other then that if your very close get your off hand out there! get the pistol in tight and shoot it!

 

[Tez3]

Just an aside as edged weapons were mentioned, bayonets haven't lost their use in war, still useful for a charge.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-19755107

(If anyone has ever watched 'Dad's army' the name of the soldier won't be lost on them.)

 

[chinto]

Just an aside as edged weapons were mentioned, bayonets haven't lost their use in war, still useful for a charge.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-19755107

(If anyone has ever watched 'Dad's army' the name of the soldier won't be lost on them.)

if you have a rifle for home defense that has a bayonet stud, get the bayonet for it! it really is a viable and excellent weapon!! cold steel scares people!!

 

[Tez3]

if you have a rifle for home defense that has a bayonet stud, get the bayonet for it! it really is a viable and excellent weapon!! cold steel scares people!!

sorry I couldn't resist! In homage to actor Clive Dunn who played Cpl Jones in Dad's Army who died a few weeks ago. Memories of my childhood watching this.

 

[Buka]

Weapon retention and throwing knives - or throwing any G Damn foolish thing should be two separate conversations.

C'mon, really.

 

[Uncle]

I've trained weapon retention for holstered weapons, firearm, and stick. I don't find I really need any specific weapon retention techniques for knife, just switching hands and rotating to cut any hand which grabs works for me.

For stick I've done some recovery techniques. A big part of it besides the standard grip breaks, was just when they grab your stick their hand is occupied you can actually let go and strike them and recover the weapon as your striking hand retracts. It works pretty well since they usually will not have a good grip on the weapon when they grab or after you belt them in the face and snap the hand back jerking the weapon away. Not recommended by the surgeon general for firearms.

 

[MJS]

weapons retention... as in a pistol? I was taught to use a pistol long ago, and one of the biggest weapons retention things is simple.. if it is drawn shoot it! its not a magic wand!! it makes holes... if its serious enough to draw its serious enough to shoot! no Talking and sure as hell no walking up and putting against some one!!!

other then that if your very close get your off hand out there! get the pistol in tight and shoot it!

Weapon retention as in anything that you pick up to use as a weapon.

 

[geezer]

For stick I've done some recovery techniques. A big part of it besides the standard grip breaks, was just when they grab your stick their hand is occupied you can actually let go and strike them and recover the weapon as your striking hand retracts. It works pretty well since they usually will not have a good grip on the weapon when they grab or after you belt them in the face and snap the hand back jerking the weapon away. Not recommended by the surgeon general for firearms.

Good post!

I've had good results with the same strategy. I remember sparring with a guy who practiced a well known eskrima system that favors many intricate and complex disarms and counters at close range. When he grabbed my stick, I would simply release and follow through with the strike using my bare hand leaving him literally "holding the stick" LOL.

As you pointed out, it was usually pretty easy to re-take the stick on the retraction, especially if you scored a solid shot, and even better if you were giving him another shot with the other hand as you snatched back the stick you just "lent" him.