Weapon Retention

[MJS]

Bill started this thread in the GMA section. A few of the posts caught my eye, with the mention of the badguy possibly taking away your weapon and using it against you.

So, I wanted to start this thread and discuss weapon retention. Since many people carry a pocketknife or handgun, does anyone work on the retention of those tools? IMO, I think that this is an important area. I mean, if you're going to take the time to learn how to use the weapon, it'd be wise to also learn how to prevent it from being taken away from you.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill started this thread in the GMA section. A few of the posts caught my eye, with the mention of the badguy possibly taking away your weapon and using it against you.

So, I wanted to start this thread and discuss weapon retention. Since many people carry a pocketknife or handgun, does anyone work on the retention of those tools? IMO, I think that this is an important area. I mean, if you're going to take the time to learn how to use the weapon, it'd be wise to also learn how to prevent it from being taken away from you.

The only weapons retention training I've ever had is some training back in my MP days on how to retain or regain control of the police baton. The nightstick is a good tool, but the first thing the bad guy does if you draw and do not immediately begin to hit him with it, is to grab it and try to take it away from you. Hence, we learned some moves to try to keep control of it.

Other than that, no. Although I do see the need.

 

[Blindside]

We work both weapon retention and access. As I have both officers who open carry firearms and civilians who carry either knives (openly, per WA state law) or firearms under concealed weapon permits, we do train for it regularly, but it is only under certain class functions. Accessing backup weapons (say a folding knife) during sparring is becoming a regular event. We have found that (and this should be obvious) "that if it is easier for you to access, it is easier for them to access." Basically it is a complete PITA to get someone elses folding knife out of their pocket, but a sheath knife not so bad. Body position of the carried item is important, 3/4 O'clock carry get accessed by the opponent far easier during a close range encounter than appendix or pocket carry. Oh, we also found that Class III retention holsters work really well. Most of this is done during a sparring environment.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it'd be wise to also learn how to prevent it from being taken away from you.

Not if you carry more than one and use it to throw at your opponent. I used to carry 3 throwing knifes. If I lost 2, I still have 1 left.

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...w=192&start=0&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0,i:99

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Not if you carry more than one and use it to throw at your opponent. I used to carry 3 throwing knifes.

As you are a new user, and I have been instructed not to thump on, harass, bend, fold, spindle, or otherwise terrify new users, may I say that is certainly a novel approach to self-defense, but are you certain it's legal where you live, to carry or to use?

Speaking only for myself, I would not wish to throw a weapon to my opponent for him to use on me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but are you certain it's legal where you live, to carry or to use?

That was back in Taiwan when I was young. In a place that firearm is not available, kinfe will be the next best weapon to have. If you know that most likely you have to deal with more than one opponent, knife throwing will give you some advantage.

I thought this is a MA form. To throw a dagger at your opponent's heart is no more violent than to use a samurai sword to cut your opponent's head off. Both are "illegal" in the modern world. There is no argument about that.

 

[shesulsa]

Not if you carry more than one and use it to throw at your opponent. I used to carry 3 throwing knifes. If I lost 2, I still have 1 left.

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...w=192&start=0&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0,i:99

Nice belt! So I am wondering, since Mr. Mattocks brought it up, what is the current law in California for knife carriage? I'm *fairly* certain throwing knives are illegal to carry. Also - this is a bit of a twist on the *retention* factor. May I ask if you carry a specific type of throwing knives and if one is more suitable for retentive use?

Thanks.

 

[shesulsa]

That was back in Taiwan when I was young. In a place that firearm is not available, kinfe will be the next best weapon to have. If you know that most likely you have to deal with more than one opponent, knife throwing will give you some advantage.

I don't think I agree with your last statement, but could you explain your reasoning on this, please? Thanks!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Bill started this thread in the GMA section. A few of the posts caught my eye, with the mention of the badguy possibly taking away your weapon and using it against you.

So, I wanted to start this thread and discuss weapon retention. Since many people carry a pocketknife or handgun, does anyone work on the retention of those tools? IMO, I think that this is an important area. I mean, if you're going to take the time to learn how to use the weapon, it'd be wise to also learn how to prevent it from being taken away from you.

Yes we train weapon retention and access. The access comes later after the skill set is a little better, more of a personal way of teaching than anything scientific.

I was working in a a seminar with a good friend who goes by the name of Paul. It was a grappling seminar. He asked if I had my trainer in my pocket. I told him yes. (* Note: We were both in street clothes as we were in the area for a different seminar on a different day and were invited to attend this one as well as guests. *) Paul said see if you can access it. Of course Paul and is trying to grab and hit me and basically make my day a bad one. So I pulled the training from my pocket which is a folder trainer. It also has a device that catches the pocket and opens on being pulled. It "SNAPPED" open and the seminar completely stopped. Paul and I were still wrestling as he realized I had it out he had to control it immediately. Of course he tried to strip or take it from me and we were going. I realized everyone was watching us and we stopped. The instructor said, "I should have known it was you two!" *All smiles, but shaking his head*. He went on to say, that no one was expected to train the way we did and that upon inspect the trainer was a trainer and safe for training on the floor.

So yes I even use opportunities that pop up to practice and train. :~)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

May I ask if you carry a specific type of throwing knives and if one is more suitable for retentive use?

Again, I was talking about when I was in Taiwan that firearm was not available. I'm not talking about California. I used to make my own throwing knifes. To make the blade is easy. The hard part is to make the handle. I collected some plastic bags, melt it into black glue, wrap it around the end of the blade, wait it to cool of, and use knife to make it into handle shape. This kind of handle will not break when drop on the ground.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't think I agree with your last statement, but could you explain your reasoning on this, please? Thanks!

To throw a dagger, dart, steel ball, ... to hurt your enemy had been used in the ancient time before the hot weapon came up. There is nothing new there.

 

[frank raud]

Not if you carry more than one and use it to throw at your opponent. I used to carry 3 throwing knifes. If I lost 2, I still have 1 left.

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...w=192&start=0&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0,i:99

As the subject of this thread is weapon retention, which by necessity means some very close contact grappling in the BGs attempt to gain access to your weapon, I doubt throwing knives would be of much value. A secondary weapon? Yes. Hard to throw a knife from a tangled up position.

 

[frank raud]

We sometimes work on weapons retention, as well as fouling the draw of the other person. Mixup who has weapons(one with, one without, both have weapons, two on one,etc.) All techniques applied force on force. Makes for an interesting afternoon.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As the subject of this thread is weapon retention, which by necessity means some very close contact grappling in the BGs attempt to gain access to your weapon,...

Some weapon is hard for your opponent to take it away from you. If you put your middle finger into this ring, it will become part of your hand.

http://imageshack.us/a/img195/20/schook.jpg

 

[shesulsa]

Some weapon is hard for your opponent to take it away from you. If you put your middle finger into this ring, it will become part of your hand.

http://imageshack.us/a/img195/20/schook.jpg

There are a number of knives like this where a finger-hole is included, but I tend to not like them as I would very much like to keep my fingers intact if possible. That said I don't have much experience with these types of knives; can anyone who does please comment?

 

[frank raud]

Some weapon is hard for your opponent to take it away from you. If you put your middle finger into this ring, it will become part of your hand.

http://imageshack.us/a/img195/20/schook.jpg

But that is not a throwing knife, now is it? I am of course familiar with sunsetsu, edda koppo and variations of same, but that is not your original statement.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But that is not a throwing knife, now is it? I am of course familiar with sunsetsu, edda koppo and variations of same, but that is not your original statement.

I don't want to side track discussion to throwing knife. Just try to bring it back to "Weapon Retention".

 

[frank raud]

I don't want to side track discussion to throwing knife. Just try to bring it back to "Weapon Retention".

It is not a side track at this point. As well, that style of weapon is difficult to access and get your finger into the ring under pressure, there is a reason why most weapon retention revolves around straps for retention, not small holes to place your fingers in. There is a reason they are historical curiousities.

So can you now explain how you throw a knife while grappling in an effort to retain your weapon?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So can you now explain how you throw a knife while grappling in an effort to retain your weapon?

I was talking about long distance such as 15 feet apart. Most of the throwing weapons are different design than short distance wapon.

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...w=136&start=0&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0,i:89

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yes we train weapon retention and access. The access comes later after the skill set is a little better, more of a personal way of teaching than anything scientific.

I was working in a a seminar with a good friend who goes by the name of Paul. It was a grappling seminar. He asked if I had my trainer in my pocket. I told him yes. (* Note: We were both in street clothes as we were in the area for a different seminar on a different day and were invited to attend this one as well as guests. *) Paul said see if you can access it. Of course Paul and is trying to grab and hit me and basically make my day a bad one. So I pulled the training from my pocket which is a folder trainer. It also has a device that catches the pocket and opens on being pulled. It "SNAPPED" open and the seminar completely stopped. Paul and I were still wrestling as he realized I had it out he had to control it immediately. Of course he tried to strip or take it from me and we were going. I realized everyone was watching us and we stopped. The instructor said, "I should have known it was you two!" *All smiles, but shaking his head*. He went on to say, that no one was expected to train the way we did and that upon inspect the trainer was a trainer and safe for training on the floor.

So yes I even use opportunities that pop up to practice and train. :~)

Do you have any recommendations for a folder trainer? I might be interested in picking one up.