Quitting Martial Arts

[Andrew Green]

Once again, none of you are getting it.

No, we do. We make our training as we see fit. If we want to train hard, we do. Martial arts haven't been watered down, they've just spread out. More people are training now, for more reasons.

We don't complain about that fact, it really doesn't effect our training at all. Our training is as we want it, because it is our training. It doesn't bother us that Tae Bo practitioners are not fighters, that they just use "martial arts" as a fitness routine to get into shape. It doesn't bother us that some schools have after school programs that teach a very basic martial arts program and focus more on games and homework, they are getting some excercise and hopefully having more fun then they would in a daycare.

We train as we please. If you can't train hard anymore, the problem is not everyone else, because they don't effect your training. There are more then enough people training at all levels and styles that everyone can find what they are looking for.

Unless, of course, you are looking for "something exactly like what my instructor taught, taught by a guy exactly like my instructor"

Try something new, do your own thing or don't do anything. But trying to start your own little "They've all gone soft" pity party isn't going to go over well here, because we all train, we all enjoy our training, and not all of us train in a watered down system.

 

[MJS]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Mike Slosek
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[Kacey]

:lol2: Well, for crying out loud, you're the one that titled the thread "Quitting Martial Arts" and proceeded to explain how you were quitting. What did you expect? I'd suggest titling the thread "Martial Arts: Too watered down?" See, the rule on the board is that we stick to the topic of the original post, lest we get reprimanded for being off topic.

This is pretty much what I was going to say. If you want to discuss the watering down of MAs, then please, post a thread about that topic - but please don't tell us we're not getting it because we responded to the topic you posted, instead of the topic you meant. We're martial artists - not mind-readers.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Lost in Seattle you will never find anyone else who teaches exactly like your old instructor. That is just a fact as they are not that person. However if you really look hard you might find exactly what you are looking for right in your area. Your just going to have to look and look and look and probably look some more. I find it hard to believe that there is
not one old school practitioner/teacher in your area. However, they
may not advertise at all. So good luck.

 

[Blindside]

I find it hard to believe that there is not one old school practitioner/teacher in your area. However, they may not advertise at all. So good luck.

Lets face it, you were just silly to recommend some no-name who teaches watered down martial arts like Kelly Worden.






.... where is that sarcasm emoticon? Oh here they are....

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Lets face it, you were just silly to recommend some no-name who teaches watered down martial arts like Kelly Worden.






.... where is that sarcasm emoticon? Oh here they are....

Personally I do not know what I was thinking!

 

[jks9199]

Not really. At least around here to get training partners you have to talk for hours, deal with people's egos, everybody thinks they're the best ... it always turns into social hour. It's very hard to get any real training in.

And every school wants you to do THEIR thing, which means that until you get to spar multiples, if at all, you have to do their basics, most of which are done wrong (weak bones of the wrist outwards, stances too high, teaching 'blocks' (which aren't really blocks at all)).

Bottom line is 99% or more of the stuff out there is just bad. Sorry to say it, but things have been watered down now where most all that's left is pretty much beer ... not hard alcohol and definitely not moonshine.

This sounds like you're getting into a rehash of your previous thread about finding a school.

You want something very particular, and you know what you want. You're not willing to listen to anyone's advice that doesn't support exactly what you want to hear.

I once pointed out a problem to a manager. He looked at me, and said "You're right... Go fix it." (I know this isn't an original experience, either!) There might be a lesson in there for you.

You want a place where you can walk in the door, be immediately handed a partner to practice applications on without even showing that you know the basic forms. Sounds like you want something like a boxing gym on steroids; a place like the dojo that Duncan MacLeod buys in the Highlander TV series. I'm sure that there are places like that around; I'm also sure that they're pretty few and far between, for lots of reasons. But you know what? I know exactly how you can find one. Open one yourself.

You've got a black belt. You've trained for at least 15 years, by your statements, in various arts. You want a place to work out your way... You'll have to make it.

Whatever your choice -- I wish you luck, success, and happiness.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Honestly, I wanted somebody to talk about how watered down MA has become, and what they do to combat it in their school, and training methodologies for open training.

I like many others was responding to your post of "Quitting Martial Arts” Not do you feel it is watered down.

But on the point of being watered down I agree it has become watered down in many cases. Let me rephrase my previous statement you can accept it and let if go and assist in the watering down by giving up or fight it and go train and train hard. So the guy next door has his Black belt in TKD light... so what.... as long as YOU are true to your chosen art everything is just fine and that is all you can do about it... just take car of you.

I have seen a whole lot of watered down MA schools and charlatans... Just look at some of my rants here on MT - Taiji in 3 minutes comes to mind..... I currently have 3 Sifu's however and none are watering down a thing and none have hugely successful schools, meaning do not have lots-o-students.

Taiji - It is hard to combat this problem, to many inundating it that want peace and tranquility new agers. However a couple of my Sifu's students and I now get together after class and do more apps and push hands and our Sifu is staying to teach us more.

Xingyi - my Xingyi Sifu is a certified hard-hitting DO THOSE APPLICATIONS fighter, not uncommon for Xingyi, This is why it is not as popular as other internal styles. Its not pretty, the training is hard and you get locked hit and hurt. I got the living daylights beaten out of me 2 classes ago and it was absolutely great.

Sanda - is ALL about fighting you train to hit and hit hard you get joint locked and thrown to the ground and if and when you spar you get hit and hit hard. To any who may read this later - If you want MA light DON'T train sanda.

So reality is still out there, it is just sometimes hard to find.

 

[IcemanSK]

Dear "Lost"

I once trained with a guy who trained many World Champion full contact rules kickboxing fighters (see my sig. It's a quote from him). He took me on as a student. I never made it to the level of the champions I trained with. He developed a brain tumor & died at the age of 42. I thought I'd never train in that style of fighting again. The other schools in the area were not the same caliber at all. So, I switched to boxing & my 1st art again. It was fun, but hardly the same. A few years later, I decided to take a class somewhere for fun. The guy teaching the class was very intimidated when he found out where I trained. He asked me to co-teach the class with him. I did & we had a blast. I got the fever for that kind of program, again. When I moved across the country, I went back to my first art (Taekwondo) & opened up a school named after my trainer (Superkick Taekwondo). Is it the same? Nope, it's my thing. Why? Because Kevin died, but I'm still here. I will never find another trainer like him. But I've got 30 students who love what I'm teaching them. It's good solid Taekwondo.

At some point, you've got to be the person you once looked up to. If all you do is look back at what was, you're missing the whole intent of what your teacher was trying to get across to you. That what you learned from him was worth sharing & doing for the rest of your life: regardless of what the folks down the street teach.

 

[lostinseattle]

At some point, you've got to be the person you once looked up to. If all you do is look back at what was, you're missing the whole intent of what your teacher was trying to get across to you. That what you learned from him was worth sharing & doing for the rest of your life: regardless of what the folks down the street teach.

You know what? Honestly there is something that my teacher had that I was lacking. We talked about this too. He said I never really got it.

It's something called Patience. I don't think I really have patience. Don't you think that there's a difference between putting up with something for a while, even years, and being able to work with people and teach them, even given their limitations and egos and foibles?

This is something that I just don't think I could ever get. I never could work with people and try to explain them something, and do it over and over, day after day, and deal with their egos and excuses and all of that.

When we used to spar and somebody wouldn't get a concept in class, like if they left gaps in their defenses, I'd just hit them a few times so they understood the weakness. I never could sit down and guide them through stuff.

Honestly I don't think I have the patience to be a teacher. Otherwise I'd open a school tomorrow.

Not everybody is cut out to be a teacher, and I've had enough bad teachers to not try to be one myself.

Plus, it really seems that being a martial arts teacher is the path to hell, so to speak. Because the instant that you become a martial arts teacher for money, it seems like the training gets started to be watered down, and the rates go up. Soon you're looking to get as much money out of your students as possible while giving them as little training as possible.

It just seems inevitable. IMHO most martial arts teachers are nothing but con-men. Sad to sad it, but that's what they are. Snake oil salesmen. Tell everybody they'll be able to defend themselves when in all actuality most people who go to MA won't be able to because the training is too weak.

 

[lostinseattle]

I like many others was responding to your post of "Quitting Martial Arts” Not do you feel it is watered down.

But on the point of being watered down I agree it has become watered down in many cases. Let me rephrase my previous statement you can accept it and let if go and assist in the watering down by giving up or fight it and go train and train hard. So the guy next door has his Black belt in TKD light... so what.... as long as YOU are true to your chosen art everything is just fine and that is all you can do about it... just take car of you.

I have seen a whole lot of watered down MA schools and charlatans... Just look at some of my rants here on MT - Taiji in 3 minutes comes to mind..... I currently have 3 Sifu's however and none are watering down a thing and none have hugely successful schools, meaning do not have lots-o-students.

So they all teach hard combat, they go hard on you and train for real fighting? If so, then it's not Seattle, that's for sure.

Xingyi - my Xingyi Sifu is a certified hard-hitting DO THOSE APPLICATIONS fighter, not uncommon for Xingyi, This is why it is not as popular as other internal styles. Its not pretty, the training is hard and you get locked hit and hurt. I got the living daylights beaten out of me 2 classes ago and it was absolutely great.

Sanda - is ALL about fighting you train to hit and hit hard you get joint locked and thrown to the ground and if and when you spar you get hit and hit hard. To any who may read this later - If you want MA light DON'T train sanda.

So reality is still out there, it is just sometimes hard to find.

There's no Sanda that I've found or Xingyi in Washington. Sanda is watered down martial arts as well. They don't allow a lot of techniques because they used to kill people with those techniques.

For xingyi, there is Jake but he's only got 11 years experience in like 5 different martial arts and mostly as a distance student, which is why I don't go work with him. There's also the 'Yiliquan' people but they do who knows what. A mixture of things ... and only 1 step drills.

But anyway, yeah, I'm done. I've had it. The guy teaching off of videos was the last straw. If people want to start 'Superfoot's TKD' then by all means, go for it, but I'd rather choke on a canoli than become a martial arts prostitute (er teacher).

 

[lostinseattle]

Personally I do not know what I was thinking!

Look at the guy ... he teaches with a plastic dummy. He doesn't even use a wooden dummy. Anyways, I give up.

 

[rutherford]

Lost, I think this is perhaps the finest piece of internet forum trolling I've ever seen.

Kudos.

 

[lostinseattle]

Lost, I think this is perhaps the finest piece of internet forum trolling I've ever seen.

Kudos.

It's not trolling. Do you even know the purpose of the wooden dummy?

Bottom line is you have people saying martial arts aren't watered down. Take TKD. TKD is essentially watered down Shotokan. The creator of TKD was a Shotokan black belt. Shotokan is watered down Okinawan martial arts.

And then they further watered down TKD in a lot of places by giving it an Olympic point fighting strategy.

Most of you given your profiles have nothing to gain by admitting that you practice or teach a watered down martial art, so of course you're going to get upset over any topic like this. It's pretty obvious given your responses you don't want anybody thinking anything of the sort or quitting because then you'll lose students.

 

[Kacey]

You know what? Honestly there is something that my teacher had that I was lacking. We talked about this too. He said I never really got it.

It's something called Patience. I don't think I really have patience. Don't you think that there's a difference between putting up with something for a while, even years, and being able to work with people and teach them, even given their limitations and egos and foibles?

This is something that I just don't think I could ever get. I never could work with people and try to explain them something, and do it over and over, day after day, and deal with their egos and excuses and all of that.

And yet, you claim, in another post, to be a salesperson... how do you sell things if you have no patience with your customers? And if you have patience for them, why can't you transfer it to instructing an MA?

When we used to spar and somebody wouldn't get a concept in class, like if they left gaps in their defenses, I'd just hit them a few times so they understood the weakness. I never could sit down and guide them through stuff.

So... what? You beat the crap out of them because you didn't have the patience to teach them what someone else took the time to teach you?

Honestly I don't think I have the patience to be a teacher. Otherwise I'd open a school tomorrow.

Not everybody is cut out to be a teacher, and I've had enough bad teachers to not try to be one myself.

You've had bad teachers, you know why you think they were bad teachers, and you have that little faith in yourself, that you're not even willing to make the attempt? I've been taking TKD for 20 years, and teaching it for 15, first as an assistant instructor and then as instructor, and I still learn as much from my students as I do from my instructor - different things, yes, but equally valid and equally important. Instead of telling yourself you can't, and making it a self-fulfilling prophecy, perhaps you should try and see, instead of excusing yourself.

Plus, it really seems that being a martial arts teacher is the path to hell, so to speak. Because the instant that you become a martial arts teacher for money, it seems like the training gets started to be watered down, and the rates go up. Soon you're looking to get as much money out of your students as possible while giving them as little training as possible.

It just seems inevitable. IMHO most martial arts teachers are nothing but con-men. Sad to sad it, but that's what they are. Snake oil salesmen. Tell everybody they'll be able to defend themselves when in all actuality most people who go to MA won't be able to because the training is too weak.

See, now, here you've made and interesting, and in my opinion, very incorrect assumption: that all MA teachers (or even most, as you actually said) are in it for the money. I had a banner year last year - by the time I covered my expenses, I cleared almost $1000 - a new record. I teach at a YMCA; my room is not large, pretty, decorated, well-equipped, and my class only meets 2x/week (although anyone who wants is welcome to come get extra practice at the Y or in my basement - no additional charge)... but my students are enthusiastic, they enjoy what they learn in my class, and they bring their friends. The same can be said of my instructor, and his instructor, and most of the instructors I know... but then, I would guess, after 20 years actively practicing TKD, I may know more instructors than you do. That's not to say there aren't some who meet the definition you give - there are plenty of those, and they often have bigger classes, because students are attracted to fancy training halls - but I know more of the former type than the latter.

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience; if you choose to quit because of it, that's your choice, and nothing I or anyone else says here, anonymous behind our computers, is going to change your mind - but please don't assume that because you think it, it must be correct for everyone, because it's not. You have, from what I've seen in your posts, decided that there are no good instructors in your area, and have closed your mind to the suggestions given to you - that's your choice. Others have made a different choice, and simply because we don't agree with you totally and completely doesn't mean we're wrong or you're wrong - it means we've had different experiences, are different people, and/or have come to different conclusions from our individual experiences... and assume we will all sit back and say "hey! someone I only know from a computer forum is quitting because MA instruction has gone down the tubes - we must follow him blindly and accept his opinion as gospel" - because it's not going to happen. We are all individuals, and we are all entitled to our individual opinions and actions.

 

[Andrew Green]

Bottom line is you have people saying martial arts aren't watered down. Take TKD. TKD is essentially watered down Shotokan. The creator of TKD was a Shotokan black belt. Shotokan is watered down Okinawan martial arts.

TKD is not watered down, it's just different. It has a lot of depth, just not in the same places. I'd guess you are also one of those people that thinks boxing is nothing but a few punches and has no depth as well?

Do some research into these other "watered down" systems, they might surprise you.

Anything that goes competitive will have a ton of depth too it. Those TKD guys that go to the Olympics, they don't get there for being lucky. They know more about strategy then most will ever know. They also have incredibly fine tuned technique and athletism.

 

[MJS]

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[lostinseattle]

And yet, you claim, in another post, to be a salesperson... how do you sell things if you have no patience with your customers? And if you have patience for them, why can't you transfer it to instructing an MA?

??? I never claimed to be a salesperson. I said that MA teachers have to be salespeople, and I won't.

At any rate, I just got a warning for posting a 'rude post'. So I'm not going to post anymore on this forum because evidently I've stepped out of bounds.

And I didn't 'beat the crap out of them'. I hit them to show their weakness. I didn't hit them hard.

You are reading too much into the posts and evidently not reading them enough.

 

[lostinseattle]

TKD is not watered down, it's just different. It has a lot of depth, just not in the same places.

If you study the traditional bunkai for Okinawan katas, you will then understand that these katas were watered down (changed) purposely, creating the Heians (Pinans) to teach to kids. These katas were originally included in the original TKD and taught until it was decided that TKD was too Japanese, so they created another series of forms, further watering down the already watered down forms.

TKD is most assuredly watered down, especially Olympic TKD.

At any rate, I better stop posting because I'm getting warnings now, so I better just stop.

Sorry for causing any trouble.

 

[bluemtn]

If you study the traditional bunkai for Okinawan katas, you will then understand that these katas were watered down (changed) purposely, creating the Heians (Pinans) to teach to kids. These katas were originally included in the original TKD and taught until it was decided that TKD was too Japanese, so they created another series of forms, further watering down the already watered down forms.

TKD is most assuredly watered down, especially Olympic TKD.

At any rate, I better stop posting because I'm getting warnings now, so I better just stop.

Sorry for causing any trouble.

Hmmm.... Very interesting, considering I've seen Shotokan forms, and the forms I do are quite similar. So similar, there's a few shotokan practitioners that come to my schools annual tournament in forms competition....