Techniques like Water?? Fire?? Air???

[Aikikitty]

Hi,

I apologize in advance that my explanations can be longwinded and I have trouble wording and expressing myself clearly sometimes.

So awhile back my senseis began a different teaching approach. I'm trying to find the correct words to describe it. For years while learning the techniques, sensei would tell me that such and such technique is better for my size than trying to use a certian other technique on someone much larger than me (becomes a power/strength battle than momentum and deflecting). That's nothing new. But awhile back my sensei and another senior student (who has 40+ year background in Korean and some Chinese martial arts) began training me and the other students differently. I'm small, but have some natural flow, but very clumsy, so they are teaching me to be like "water" and they work with me with the Tai Chi (I think) "sticky hands" and the like. Another student is as hard as a rock and very stiff, and I believe I heard them say he needs to learn to be like "air". Before class starts, they put us each on separate heavy bags and show us how they want us to either punch/block/or move the bag to practice footwork moving out of the way of the swinging bag.

I LOVE the flowy-ness of "water" style of defense/attack and I've been trying to work on getting better with my balance, timing, deflecting and following in, etc. This last Saturday, I had one of those rare epiphanys and actually SAW "water" in my sensei's movements and techniques and in the Aikido techniques we worked on in class! Happy day! I had a big grin on my face ever since. Now I just need to get my body to do what my brain is finally beginning to understand. But I'm very excited!

My questions after my longwinded backstory are:

1) The "elements" metaphor in martial arts seem like they come from the Chinese arts, but do other arts/styles use them too? Do you in your class? Which ones do you use?

2) I'm understanding what "water" is now, but I don't know about the other ones. How can a person learn to fight/move like "air"? What about the other ones? Would "fire" be strong and explosive?

I'd really like answers. :asian:

Thanks!
Robyn :asian:

 

[dancingalone]

Opal, if you're into this type of symbolism, there's plenty of material you can read. Check out the Tai Chi Classics. The Book of Five Rings is also frequently on the reading list for aikidoists.

I have studied both at my leisure for most of my life and I believe they add value and understanding to the practice of any martial art.

 

[Aikikitty]

Opal, if you're into this type of symbolism, there's plenty of material you can read. Check out the Tai Chi Classics. The Book of Five Rings is also frequently on the reading list for aikidoists.

I have studied both at my leisure for most of my life and I believe they add value and understanding to the practice of any martial art.

Thanks! I've never heard of the book Tai Chi Classics, but I'll have to keep an eye out for it. I own Book of the Five Rings and got about half way through reading it years ago. I don't remember it at all. I should dust it off and try again.

 

[dancingalone]

Thanks! I've never heard of the book Tai Chi Classics, but I'll have to keep an eye out for it. I own Book of the Five Rings and got about half way through reading it years ago. I don't remember it at all. I should dust it off and try again.

You can buy some of the classics in a book published by Shambala, but keep in mind that they're just a collection of essays written by various people over the years. You can find a lot freely available on the Internet for reading and pondering.

It's interesting to read tai chi writings. Some of it is very applicable to aikido and even karate.

Check out the 10 Principles by Yang Cheng Fu for example. I'm excerpting just the points themselves, but the entire article is worth reading for their ideas for inclusion in your own daily practice, even if you have no idea what a cloud hand is. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bookshelf/br.fcgi?book=altrehab&part=A660

1. Keep the head and neck straight (as if suspended from above)
2. Upper and lower back is kept in a straight line with the pelvis tucked in
3. Waist is relaxed and rotates easily, including the muscles of the hips and groin
4. Shoulders and elbows are relaxed and sinking down
5. Upper and lower parts of the body always move as one coordinated unit
6. Always differentiate between a full (solid) and an empty leg when moving (i.e., be aware to which leg a weight shifting is occurring)
7. Move using only the intention of the mind and no external muscle force
8. Make each movement flow into the next in a smooth, continuous manner
9. Assure a sense of harmony between the internal and external body feeling
10. Experience a tranquil, meditative state

 

[Kyosanim]

Thanks! I've never heard of the book Tai Chi Classics, but I'll have to keep an eye out for it. I own Book of the Five Rings and got about half way through reading it years ago. I don't remember it at all. I should dust it off and try again.

If your going to read Musashi then make sure it is still in the martial arts context. When I read it I was frustrated because some things that would have been in non edited for business version made understand stances and the such a bit of work.

As for the symbolism. It is rather simple. Water flows. Air is light. Fire is sporadic. This means that you should flow like water, be quick and light on your feet like air, sporadic and unpredictable like fire, and earth or mountain is relating to being immovable and lends it's self very well to techs like judo throws in many cases.

 

[David43515]

In Hsing-I one of the qualities they talk about fire having is that it clings. (the flame never seperates from what is burning) It also rises. Water rises up and falls down like a wave crashing on a shore.

 

[Bruno@MT]

In ninpo, we talk about the 5 elements: earth, water, fire, wind, and heaven.
Each element has a different way of moving / doing techniques. Water techniques are very flowing and big. Fire techniques are direct and aggressive, etc.

For all practical purposes, those categories could just as easily been named after colors, but naming them after elements provides a link between the traits of said element (flow, directness, etc) and the techniques, making it easier to classify them.

And based on your personality / character, I guess it is logical that you have more affinity with one family of techniques or the other.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm, the Classical Chinese/Japanese understanding of the Universe was that it was made up of 5 basic elements; Earth (or solid matter), Water (or liquid matter), Air (or gaseous matter), Fire (energy-releasing), and Void (emptiness, a vaccuum). These were essentially the way that the Eastern cultures saw the way the Universe was formed, and this concept was exended to other aspects of the way they saw everything around them, including aspects of philosophy, medicine, and more. This is shown all the way up to the Bhuddist symbol seen on gravestones, made up of a series of shapes on top of each other (from bottom to top, a circle [representing Earth], a square [representing Water], a triangle [representing Fire], a crescent [representing Air/Wind], and a teardrop [representing Void/Emptiness]).

Within the Ninjutsu-related systems, Stephen Hayes is credited/lambasted for bringing these concepts to the fore. While they can be used to indicate certain traits of a technical approach, they are best used as a basic (beginners) explanation. The thing that often gets glossed over is that these elements (in Eastern philosophy) are not seperate, rather they all work together, and are often all present at the same time. For example, we have a series of basic kata known as the Sanshin no Kata, or the Shoshin Gokei Go Gyo no Kata, and this is a series of 5 basic movements each named for the element they represent (Chi -Earth, Sui - Water, Ka - Fire, Fu - Wind, Ku - Void). But each of the techniques themselves are incredibly similar, each involves basically the same footwork (Sanshin footwork, what may be described as a "water" footwork, no matter the element the kata is for), so obviously the physical is not what the elements are about (although one interpretation is more to do with the elemental Bhuddist shapes listed above).

So what does all this mean? And what are the elements supposed to tell us? Well, that will depend on who is doing the telling, really. Within the Gorin no Sho of Musashi, he basically uses each of these elements to differentiate between different thematic concepts in his book. Earth deals with the basic concepts of studying martial arts, Water deals with the physical aspects of Musashi's personal system, the Niten Ichi Ryu, Fire deals with the greater strategic teachings for battle (small or large), Wind talks about other martial arts and approaches to swordsmanship, and finally Void is Musashi's take on the proper way to attain wisdom. He takes his cue for each section from his personal take on each element, and what it means to him (with very strong Bhuddist influences). As such it is personal interpretation.

The most common, though, is that Earth is solid, unyielding, grounded, Water is fluid, receding and crashing down again, Fire is explosive, a sudden burst of energy, going through anything in it's path, Wind is evasive, moving easily around obstacles, and Void is the absence of any of these, instead being able to employ any as needed. Ideally, you would train and understand each of the four primary elements, so that when you act (from the Void) you can utilise whichever is the most appropriate at the time and in the situation you are in. The problem happens when people train as if there is only one "element" present in any technique, as the elements simply don't work in isolation.

The other problem I have seen is when people start saying things like "I'm in a water mood today.... ", implying that they turn the techniques to the way they are "feeling", rather than the way the techniques actually work. This is why techniques should always come from the Void aspect (if we're to use this concept). The elements are really just a way of exploring and explaining strategies, rather than certain elements you have a personal preference for.

Hmm, did that help at all? Hope so, I may have just confused myself there...

 

[rlobrecht]

On a less serious note, this is the basis of the arts in The Last Airbender. My son used to really love the cartoon, and we're excited about the movie coming out this summer.

 

[Zero]

The thing that often gets glossed over is that these elements (in Eastern philosophy) are not seperate, rather they all work together, and are often all present at the same time.

The other problem I have seen is when people start saying things like "I'm in a water mood today.... ", implying that they turn the techniques to the way they are "feeling", rather than the way the techniques actually work.

I like how Chris pointed out that the elemental/different style aplications of techniques can/should all be used by the one practitioner, often during the course of one exchange/fight or training session. Of course if your physiology is of a certain type/size then certain "elemental" approaches may be better suited and make more sense in applying against certain opponents of differing size. But to be truely effective I would think being able to shift fluidly between approaches/elements as the situation requires is optimal for anyone.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Some Chinese martial arts use the 5 elements but I would not call any of them flowery.

One way that Xingyiquan uses them is in this manor

piquan – splitting fist – metal
zuanquan – drilling fist – water
bengquan –smashing fist – wood
paoquan – pounding fist – fire
hengquan – crossing fist - earth

Attack with wood respond with metal,
Wood then can changes to fire to counter metal,
metal change to water to counter fire,
Fire changes to earth to counter water
Water changes to wood to counter earth
Earth changes to metal to counter wood
And you are back at the beginning

You will also find it in taiji in the 5 steps of the 13 postures (your style of Yang may vary)

Forward - Step in – Advance – Fire
Back - Step Back – retreat – water
Watch Left - Watch Left - metal
Expect Right - Expect Right - wood
Center – Earth

here
and
here

You will also find it in Traditional Chinese Medicine and various other places in Chinese culture but that is stuff of another post

 

[harlan]

Personally, I found this book to be useful:

'The Essence of T'ai Chi Ch'uan: The Literary Tradition' (Trans. Lo/Inn/Amacker/Foe)

(an excerpt)

Chapter One: 'T'ai Chi Ch'uan' by Chang San-feng

In motion
all parts of the body must be
light
nimble
and strung together.

The ch'i (breath) should be excited,
the shen (spirit) should be internally gathered.

Let the postures be without
breaks or holes,
hollows or projections,
or discontinuities and continuities of form.

The motion should be rooted in the feet,
released through the legs,
controlled by the waist,
and manifested through the fingers.

The feet, legs and waist
must act together simultaneously,
so that while stepping forward or back
the timing and position are correct.

If the timing and position are not correct,
the body becomes disordered,
and the defect must be sought
in the legs and waist.

Up or down,
front or back,
left or right, are all the same.

These are all i (mind) and not external.

If there is up, there is down;
if there is forward, then there is backward;
if there is left, then there is right.

If the i wants to move up,
it contains at the same time
the downward idea.

By alternating the force
of pulling and pushing,
the root is severed
and the object is quickly toppled,
without a doubt.

Insubstantial and substantial
should be clearly differentiated.

One place
has insubstantiality and substantiality;
every place
has the same insubstantiality and substantiality.

All parts of the body are strung together
without the slightest break.

Ch'ang Ch'uan (T'ai Chi Ch'uan)
is like a great river
rolling on unceasingly.

P'eng (wardoff), lu (rollback),
chi (press), an (push),
ts'ai (pull), lieh (split),
tsou (elbow), k'ao (shoulder),
are the eight trigrams.

Step forward, step back,
look left, look right,
and central equilibrium
are the five elements.

P'eng, lu, chi, an are ch'ien, k'un, k'an, li,
and are the four cardinal directions.
Ts'ai, lieh, tsou, k'ao, are sun, chen, tui, ken,
and are the four diagonal directions.

Step forward, step back,
look left, look right,
and central equilibrium
are metal, wood, water, fire and earth.

Together
these comprise the thirteen postures.

 

[Aikikitty]

Thanks to everyone who has answered so far. Everything has been very helpful.

The most common, though, is that Earth is solid, unyielding, grounded, Water is fluid, receding and crashing down again, Fire is explosive, a sudden burst of energy, going through anything in it's path, Wind is evasive, moving easily around obstacles, and Void is the absence of any of these, instead being able to employ any as needed. Ideally, you would train and understand each of the four primary elements, so that when you act (from the Void) you can utilise whichever is the most appropriate at the time and in the situation you are in. The problem happens when people train as if there is only one "element" present in any technique, as the elements simply don't work in isolation.

The other problem I have seen is when people start saying things like "I'm in a water mood today.... ", implying that they turn the techniques to the way they are "feeling", rather than the way the techniques actually work. This is why techniques should always come from the Void aspect (if we're to use this concept). The elements are really just a way of exploring and explaining strategies, rather than certain elements you have a personal preference for.

Hmm, did that help at all? Hope so, I may have just confused myself there...

Thanks Chris! Your whole post is great and this answers what I was hoping to find out. The parts I quoted also made me remember how my sensei tries to get us to do certian techniques, but tells us not to think about it, and if that technique or response isn't the best in a certian situation, then to automatically flow into something else without stopping to think about it. I'm glad you pointed out the different stratagies, but emphazize the void being able to switch and blend to any when needed. And also the importance of not getting too hung up on just one style/stratagy.

Thanks!
Robyn :asian:

 

[Aikikitty]

Two more posts while I was typing.

Thanks Xue Sheng and Harlen for posting. : ) It's neat to learn all these different interpretations and there similarities.

Thanks! :asian:
Robyn

 

[Xue Sheng]

Personally, I found this book to be useful:

'The Essence of T'ai Chi Ch'uan: The Literary Tradition' (Trans. Lo/Inn/Amacker/Foe)

(an excerpt)

Chapter One: 'T'ai Chi Ch'uan' by Chang San-feng

Not meaning to derail the post so I will post this in another thread, but there are a few things about the above 'T'ai Chi Ch'uan' by Chang San-feng that I just can’t let go, nothing earth shattering, sorry about the brief derailment

 

[mook jong man]

I don't really think about elements as such when I am training .
But when I am doing Chi Sau with a partner I will visualise that my arms are like hoses with water flowing out under great pressure.

This helps me to keep up a constant and even forward force on both arms , but still soft and relaxed enough to detect an imminent attack or find any weaknesses / gaps in their defence.

 

[jks9199]

I think perhaps you may be overthinking things...

Your teacher is using analogies to help you understand what he wants you to do. It may be that's all it is, not part of some complex schema.

 

[Aikikitty]

I think perhaps you may be overthinking things...

Your teacher is using analogies to help you understand what he wants you to do. It may be that's all it is, not part of some complex schema.

I might be, but I like analogies. It's hard for me to be told to do something and copy all the subleties (sp?), but to have a picture in my head like that helps me. The visualization like Mook Jong Man mentioned---the "unbendable arm", "like firehoses", "flow like water", "root yourself down in the earth like a tree", or whatever, I can try to understand. And then that goes back to what Chris pointed out--not focus too much on doing things just one way, but to learn to adjust and respond without thinking.

Thanks!
Robyn :asian:

 

[geezer]

I don't really think about elements as such when I am training .
But when I am doing Chi Sau with a partner I will visualise that my arms are like hoses with water flowing out under great pressure.

This helps me to keep up a constant and even forward force on both arms , but still soft and relaxed enough to detect an imminent attack or find any weaknesses / gaps in their defence.

We use the same analogy and visualization in our lineage, Mook. Also, I would not discount the element of wind, especially in Chi-Sau and close-range sparring.

No, I'm not talking about The Last Air-Bender. I'm talking about a student with serious gastric problems. His "fart-sau" was so devastating that we had to open all the doors in the kwoon and drag out a couple of big electric fans just to survive till the end of class!

 

[mook jong man]

We use the same analogy and visualization in our lineage, Mook. Also, I would not discount the element of wind, especially in Chi-Sau and close-range sparring.

No, I'm not talking about The Last Air-Bender. I'm talking about a student with serious gastric problems. His "fart-sau" was so devastating that we had to open all the doors in the kwoon and drag out a couple of big electric fans just to survive till the end of class!

You should have used the element of fire to burn up all that nasty methane , but then again that might have triggered an explosion.