Voting issues.

[Melissa426]

Melissa,

Those of us on the left (who likely think of ourselves far more broadly than just "Kerry supporters") have hearts, guts, feelings, beliefs, and values too... and an understanding of the facts and figures.

Which is probably why we support the positions we do.

Gee, I guess I didn't make myself understood. Please forgive me.

It's not that I don't understand the facts and figures. It's just that I don't have the time to post them right and left with multiple links and sources.

The original question was why don't Bush supporters post often here. I
know, in general, the "left" supports diversity and promotes tolerance among people with different ideas and values and cultures. I put myself in that category. However I chose not to vote for Kerry because of other issues I feel are important.

 

[PeachMonkey]

It's not that I don't understand the facts and figures. It's just that I don't have the time to post them right and left with multiple links and sources.

Interestingly enough, I work both in a day job and am self-employed, taking classes, and trying to volunteer when I can. I still manage to post facts and figures, often of a far more substantive basis than, say, the liberal equivalent of Fox News or New Republic.

It's been demonstrated in other threads that leftists often have a better understanding of their own candidate's positions as well as recent history and facts, which helps to moot the whole free-time issue; I propose additionally that we have an easier time posting supporting information because it's, well, correct, and easy to find.

 

[Melissa426]

Interestingly enough, I work both in a day job and am self-employed, taking classes, and trying to volunteer when I can. I still manage to post facts and figures, often of a far more substantive basis than, say, the liberal equivalent of Fox News or New Republic.

All I guess I can say is you must be a better woman than I am.:asian:

What I really spend all my time doing is crunching the numbers to figure out what place finishes will be needed the next two weekends to make sure Li'l E crushes the "97."

Cheers,
Melissa

 

[PeachMonkey]

Actually getting the thread back on topic...

Voting irregularities are finally beginning to gain *some* traction.

Six Democratic Representatives have demanded that the US General Accounting Office examine 2004 voting technologies, how they were used by election officials, and how they can be improved.

The Palm Beach Post has reported on how Broward County machines actually counted *backward*:

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/politics/content/news/epaper/2004/11/05/a29a_BROWVOTE_1105.html

CNN has finally reported how Ohio gave extra votes to Bush:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/voting.problems.ap/

 

[rmcrobertson]

As one suspects folks already know, there are innumerable examples in history of liberals and lefties with good educations and all the facts in the world at their disposal who proceed right merrily to make the sorts of stupid, short-sighted, narcissistic, disastrous decisions that an Ohio pig farmer with a sixth-grade education and a tendency to thump the Bible every five minutes wouldn't fall for in a month of Sundays.

 

[Tgace]

On this board, the majority of posters seemed to support Kerry. Do the Bush people just keep their mouths shut? I don't know. I don't get it.

Take a look at the total number of members on this board and look at the number of people who consistently post on political matters. Predominantly here in the Study. Amongst those people its pretty easy to see which side of an issue each of those will fall into. Id say its pretty tough to determine what the "silent majority" is here or anywhere else based on whos mouths are flapping the most.

 

[PeachMonkey]

As one suspects folks already know, there are innumerable examples in history of liberals and lefties with good educations and all the facts in the world at their disposal who proceed right merrily to make the sorts of stupid, short-sighted, narcissistic, disastrous decisions that an Ohio pig farmer with a sixth-grade education and a tendency to thump the Bible every five minutes wouldn't fall for in a month of Sundays.

This is absolutely true. Hell, *I* like to think I'm pretty durn smart, and have a decent education, and I know I make tons of really darn-tootin'-terrible decisions.

I'm also not at all sure how it's relevant.

 

[Tgace]

This is absolutely true. Hell, *I* like to think I'm pretty durn smart, and have a decent education, and I know I make tons of really darn-tootin'-terrible decisions.

I'm also not at all sure how it's relevant.

Does democracy work because all the "intelligent" people make all the important decisions about who should be running things? Or does it work because everybody gets their vote, educated or not?

 

[PeachMonkey]

Does democracy work because all the "intelligent" people make all the important decisions about who should be running things? Or does it work because everybody gets their vote, educated or not?

I don't recall advocating that people shouldn't get a vote based on education or intellect; if you can find a place where I made this suggestion, please point it out and I'll be happy to retract it.

Moreover, democracy works *best* when people are educated enough to understand the ramifications of their decisions, rather than simply being swept by their base passions, as manipulated by the propagandists of the major parties.

This is why so many of us continue to insist, unceasingly, nauseatingly, on facts, history, education, research, discussion, discourse, and examination.

 

[Tgace]

I don't recall advocating that people shouldn't get a vote based on education or intellect; if you can find a place where I made this suggestion, please point it out and I'll be happy to retract it.

Moreover, democracy works *best* when people are educated enough to understand the ramifications of their decisions, rather than simply being swept by their base passions, as manipulated by the propagandists of the major parties.

This is why so many of us continue to insist, unceasingly, nauseatingly, on facts, history, education, research, discussion, discourse, and examination.

Not saying you were. Just (on the rare occasion) agreeing with rmcrobertson. Somebody asked what the relevance of his last post was.

 

[loki09789]

Loki,

Your attitudes about Nader and voter fraud (among other things) reflect, to me, how you are someone who genuinely cares about the country and your fellow people, and make decisions carefully and thoughtfully.

Although I have often voted for their candidates, I have lost faith that the leadership of the Democratic Party is any more capable than that of the GOP to think the way people like you and I do. I still have a lot of soul-searching before I decide whether to fight for the soul of the Democrats, or let them go entirely and go third-party.

I care more about the 'nation' than I do about 'party' or the little subsets that try to push their agendas ahead of what the nation needs by recognizing short and long term goals. I have said that I didn't agree with Bush all the way, but I do recognize that to some 'stubborn and blind' may not be so. The history books may describe that as 'flinty and with convictions/vision/values' for all we know depending on the outcome. Again, look at the characterization of Carter's term in office - great humanitarian and man, IMO, but as POTUS he got shafted because of the historical context of his term.

I voted Bush primarily because we (not just he) sent and continue to send troops into the lion's den. Changing leadership/doctrine/strategy/philosophy/style.... midstride is flat out dangerous and will cost more lives than anything else will, IMO. If Kerry or anyone else had been put in office and starte changing the objectives, that instability would play havoc on the troop operational effectiveness and MORALE. We, as Martial artists know the danger of changing your mind midattack or second guessing your actions in motion. It is relatively the same in this case - just change the scale.

It is hard enough to see why/how it might be worth in when you've been there that long and seen friends dying without adding the "Beirut" type of policy changes and tactic limits imposed by a new adminstration. Not saying that the operational plan is perfect, but some plan is better than no plan and WAY better than changing midstride. Anyone that served in a ground/infantry unit and rehearsed 'retrograde actions' can tell you it gets real messy when you have to 'change directions.'

Domestic issues, healthcare, Education.... all important but I think that a last term republican POTUS by himself isn't going to do irreparabel damage (or good) in four years. The main/immediate concern to me right now is getting this Iraq/Afg issue decisively 'finished.' We didn't vote a life term leader. And, if the damage is that severe, it will just make the Democratic nominee look that much better in comparison.

 

[lvwhitebir]

If the election were closer (even though Ohio was only 100,000 votes), you would be hearing more about this.

That would be 100,000 votes that decided the presidency. That's almost as close at it can get. If there really was voter fraud, it should be brought out. I personally think it's just people shouting foul just to hear themselves.

Plain and simple .... We Lost.

Unfortunately that's what I think the problem is. No one "won", no one "lost." We simply have a leader that the majority selected. It doesn't mean that your voice is no longer heard or that you don't get to live here anymore.

The problem with this election was that it got so dirty and so divided that it will be very hard to heal. I have a hard time reconciling with those that called people names for voting the way they did. Or calling the candidates names because they didn't believe what the candidate stood for.

 

[loki09789]

The problem with this election was that it got so dirty and so divided that it will be very hard to heal. I have a hard time reconciling with those that called people names for voting the way they did. Or calling the candidates names because they didn't believe what the candidate stood for.

I attribute that mostly to the fact that we are in a state of war (even if you want to say that the offical war is over....guys are dead on foreign soil) and the election was the only 'control' that the average citizen felt they had - and they clutched it really tightly and put a lot of personal investment into it.