Voting issues.

[loki09789]

Sorry for the thin topic source for the start of this thread but I caught the end of "Bill Mahar" last night and Susan Sarandon the 'actor/activist' was talking about problems with voting fraud.

I have not heard anything in the regular network news or in print/on line like CNN sources and such.

Has anyone heard anything.

My thinking is that if there was any blood in the water on this issue the Democratic party would have their lawyers all over it.

If it is happening, it should be exposed.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Loki,

I have stayed out of the loop on this one (as have many leftists) due to trauma.

One of the leaders in auditing the election results can be found here:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

This group has sued the government under the Freedom of Information Act to determine information about voting machine security certification, voter logs, etc etc... and has already found some interesting discrepancies.

The Democratic Party seems uninterested, by and large, in participating in auditing the voting process. I think it's part-and-parcel of their general cowardice... regardless of whether or not fraud took place, the extremist right-wing attack machine will tear into them if they participate in auditing, and they don't want to be vilified for "helping to divide America".

 

[shesulsa]

Here is a thread started about this very topic.

 

[loki09789]

Loki,

I have stayed out of the loop on this one (as have many leftists) due to trauma.

One of the leaders in auditing the election results can be found here:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

This group has sued the government under the Freedom of Information Act to determine information about voting machine security certification, voter logs, etc etc... and has already found some interesting discrepancies.

The Democratic Party seems uninterested, by and large, in participating in auditing the voting process. I think it's part-and-parcel of their general cowardice... regardless of whether or not fraud took place, the extremist right-wing attack machine will tear into them if they participate in auditing, and they don't want to be vilified for "helping to divide America".

I heard this same type of mentallity about comments in support of the war in Iraq/Afg before the election because the Democratic party looking unified was more important than the issue of the entire US at war....BS.

If there are problems either nationally, locally, in terms of campaign funding what ever it doesn't matter if it is during an election, after an election or not simply 'fix the problem not the blame' instead of trying to 'out' the bad guys or win the "look at me I was right" support by being the whistle blower.

Democrat or Rep or Ind or Green....what ever. That is why, regardless of whether I voted for the guy or not, I respect how Nader 'keeps fighting the good fight' by staying in the running so that issues are discussed - and should get equal debate time with the Big 2 IMO on national television.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Democrat or Rep or Ind or Green....what ever. That is why, regardless of whether I voted for the guy or not, I respect how Nader 'keeps fighting the good fight' by staying in the running so that issues are discussed - and should get equal debate time with the Big 2 IMO on national television.

Loki,

Your attitudes about Nader and voter fraud (among other things) reflect, to me, how you are someone who genuinely cares about the country and your fellow people, and make decisions carefully and thoughtfully.

Although I have often voted for their candidates, I have lost faith that the leadership of the Democratic Party is any more capable than that of the GOP to think the way people like you and I do. I still have a lot of soul-searching before I decide whether to fight for the soul of the Democrats, or let them go entirely and go third-party.

 

[shesulsa]

I feel the same way, guys.

 

[Phoenix44]

"I have not heard anything in the regular network news or in print/on line like CNN sources and such."

I'm not surprised. I heard about it on Air America Radio. As you've learned, blackboxvoting.org has started the FOIA investigations. Ralph Nader demanded a recount in New Hampshire--and this may expand to other states as well. There were major electoral irregularities in Ohio. It's also disturbing that so many exit polls disagreed with the outcome.

If you listen to the right sources, you'll hear it. Oh yeah, lots of people are very VERY angry, and are doing something about it. But I wouldn't expect it to be in the corporate media.

 

[michaeledward]

There are some counties in Ohio where the number of ballots cast exceeds the number of registered voters. It's not a secret. There also questions about the audit-less polling by the various computer systems. But, in the end ... there was a 3 million vote variance. Too great a variance for fraud. Too great a variance to claim it is all Diebold's fault.

If the election were closer (even though Ohio was only 100,000 votes), you would be hearing more about this.

Hopefully, some of these voting boxes will get very close scrutiny before the next election.

Plain and simple .... We Lost.

 

[Tgace]

There was a national news (ABC?) story a day or two ago on the topic. From what I heard over the screaming kids, they had a "neutral" elections monitor on who debunked the theories. Sorry didnt catch the whole thing, maybe their website has something.

 

[Phoenix44]

There are some counties in Ohio where the number of ballots cast exceeds the number of registered voters. It's not a secret. There also questions about the audit-less polling by the various computer systems. But, in the end ... there was a 3 million vote variance. Too great a variance for fraud. Too great a variance to claim it is all Diebold's fault..

You're talking about 3 million votes nationwide. But under our electoral system, the popular vote doesn't matter. In Ohio, the difference was 136,483 votes, and that's before overseas and provisional ballots are counted. In Florida, the spread was 377,216, also with votes not counted. All tolled, that's about a half million votes, not 3 million.

There was evidence of WIDESPREAD irregularity. There were precincts in FL with 75% Democratic voter registration, which apparently "voted" 75% for Bush! Seriously. Also in Florida, thousands of absentee ballots were mailed out too late for voters to return them by the deadline. (They tried to blame USPS, but USPS denied that they could "lose" 5000 ballots. The "lost" ballots turned up later when the elections officials finally dropped them off with the postal service.) The ACLU sued to insure these "late" votes would count, and a FL judged ruled against it today! In some Ohio precincts, Bush apparently got more votes than there were voters!

So, between the black boxes, uncounted absentee ballots, "spoiled" ballots, overseas ballots, people discouraged by long lines at the polls disproportionately in African American areas, people who tried to vote but were for some reason not listed as registered voters, shredded ballots, people who applied for absentee ballots and didn't get them in time, oh yeah I think that could constitute enough discrepancy to throw an election with less than a half million spread.

 

[michaeledward]

Phoenix44 ---- No argument from me on any of these issues. But, without the popular vote, and without even a close state race in one of the battleground states, there is no way to mount a convincing campaign to dispute anything.

Just as in 2000 ... if Florida was resolved in favor of the Democratic Party early, the Republicans had ever intention of going to Arizona, which was also a close vote.

In this election, nothing was close enough to give the appearance of justification of questioning the election.

Remember, I called a going-away landslide for the Democratic Party back in January / February time frame.

On this board, the majority of posters seemed to support Kerry. Do the Bush people just keep their mouths shut? I don't know. I don't get it.

But, they won. It wasn't even close. I don't know why.

I spoke to a colleague from Texas today. She is pro-choice (strongly) yet she voted for Bush. She admits she is a bit biggoted, doesn't think homosexuality is natural, has problems with non-whites, but she just didn't trust Kerry (get this) because of what Clinton did in the White House.

I just plain don't get it. But ... they won.

 

[Melissa426]

On this board, the majority of posters seemed to support Kerry. Do the Bush people just keep their mouths shut? I don't know. I don't get it.


I just plain don't get it. But ... they won.

Oh, that's just hilarious.

You want to know why the people who voted for Bush don't post as much?
Every friggin' statement has to be supported by 15 different links to semi- obscure websites from someone with academic credentials beyond reproach whose writings makes George Will sound like Dr. Seuss.

I have got a post-graduate degree, a reasonable intellect, and I can follow the arguments.
What I don't have is the time!
I work 60-80 hours a week, and then try to devote a few hours to TKD, a few hours to church and volunteer organizations, several hours to running my house, a few (very few) hours for a social life, and after that I am just bushed (no pun intended).

I AM NOT saying I don't do anything that any other working woman isn't accomplishing in her daily life.
So if you ask me why I don't post as much, I can't back my arguments with facts and figures. All I got is my heart, my gut, my feelings, my beliefs, and my values.
And that is just not good enough for some of you Kerry supporters.

Peace,
Melissa

 

[Tgace]

Oh, that's just hilarious.

You want to know why the people who voted for Bush don't post as much?
Every friggin' statement has to be supported by 15 different links to semi- obscure websites from someone with academic credentials beyond reproach whose writings makes George Will sound like Dr. Seuss.

I have got a post-graduate degree, a reasonable intellect, and I can follow the arguments.
What I don't have is the time!
I work 60-80 hours a week, and then try to devote a few hours to TKD, a few hours to church and volunteer organizations, several hours to running my house, a few (very few) hours for a social life, and after that I am just bushed (no pun intended).

I AM NOT saying I don't do anything that any other working woman isn't accomplishing in her daily life.
So if you ask me why I don't post as much, I can't back my arguments with facts and figures. All I got is my heart, my gut, my feelings, my beliefs, and my values.
And that is just not good enough for some of you Kerry supporters.

Peace,
Melissa

 

[michaeledward]

Gee Melissa ... I thought you were in the Kerry camp ... I don't know how I got that idea.

Why is it so difficult to post supporting information about Bush?

 

[PeachMonkey]

So if you ask me why I don't post as much, I can't back my arguments with facts and figures. All I got is my heart, my gut, my feelings, my beliefs, and my values.
And that is just not good enough for some of you Kerry supporters.

Melissa,

Those of us on the left (who likely think of ourselves far more broadly than just "Kerry supporters") have hearts, guts, feelings, beliefs, and values too... and an understanding of the facts and figures.

Which is probably why we support the positions we do.

 

[Phoenix44]

So if you ask me why I don't post as much, I can't back my arguments with facts and figures. All I got is my heart, my gut, my feelings, my beliefs, and my values. And that is just not good enough for some of you Kerry supporters.

Yeah, we liberals are funny that way. We do appreciate facts.

 

[Melissa426]

Gee Melissa ... I thought you were in the Kerry camp ... I don't know how I got that idea.

Why is it so difficult to post supporting information about Bush?

I am woman. Hear me snore.

I am pro-choice, but since I am not a one issue voter, I couldn't base my vote simply on Bush's anti-abortion stance.
I honestly don't believe there is a chance that Roe v. wade. will get overturned, not that Bush won't try.

I do believe that a healthcare crisis is looming if skyrocketing malpractice rates aren't addressed. Insurance costs won't matter, cause you won't get good students to go into medicine, therefore you won't have quality providers to practice medicine anyway.
That is one of several reasons I couldn't support a Kerry/millionaire trial lawyer J. Edwards ticket. (BTW, that issue has been thoroughly discussed in another thread.) I know G. Bush wants a nation wide reform, with caps on malpractice awards. I happen to believe that is a good idea.

I don't think it would be difficult to find info about Bush, I could go to FOX news or New Republic and just start linking away.( By the way I think getting Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reiily, and Ann Coulter off the air would would be better for Bush and the Republican party than would finding WMD in Iraq.)
but I am also pretty sure I don't stand a chance of changing anyone's minds... most people are pretty passionate about their opinions on this board if you haven't noticed.:ultracool

Peace,
Melissa

Peace,
Melissa

 

[Melissa426]

Yeah, we liberals are funny that way. We do appreciate facts.

Wait, I thought liberals were supposed to be the bleeding hearts.

 

[Phoenix44]

But, without the popular vote, and without even a close state race in one of the battleground states, there is no way to mount a convincing campaign to dispute anything.

For one thing, if there was widespread cheating, there is no way to tell if a state was "close." Should we make the assumption that there was only a little cheating as opposed to a lot of cheating? In Ohio, if they only stole 70,000 votes, that would have made it a Kerry win! We already know that thousands of votes were counted for Bush in a single Ohio precinct that only had few hundred voters. Another way of looking at it is if they can prove only a little cheating, maybe the entire election is tainted.

Furthermore, various state laws determine grounds for a recall. It doesn't necessarily need a close race.

 

[Phoenix44]

Wait, I thought liberals were supposed to be the bleeding hearts.

Maybe or maybe not...but it has nothing to do with backing up assertions with facts.