Video me frustrated sparring

[Dinkydoo]

???assuming this is to shotonoob.

Yea, unless you've said those things and I've missed it

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yea, unless you've said those things and I've missed it

Not unless I'm losing my mind lol.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I know most boxers will slip the jab and then defend the follow up punch fit if it comes while still moving in. Each time closes the gap, I want to have something that's closer to martial arts before I try something else that's in a totally different martial arts system

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Ok, but I don't see the connection to CMA proper... As far as boxing (kickboxing) science goes, every point you put forth makes sense to me.... Especially the "Angle-Out & Round Kick...." tactic against the jab...
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Couple of interesting points on the YT vid above....
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1. The tactic shorty uses to infight the longer reach is equally and easly blocked by tall instructor in the demo. So you are assuming or trying to have a faster reaction time to pull of shorty's manuever against the longer reach.... Good Luck with that....
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2. Shorty's head movement to slip the jab.... places him @ a disadvantage line-of-vision, hence concentration wise. Traditional karate kihon never does such for that reason.... among others..... So again, good luck with that against a tough opponent.
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Again in summary... by boxing, conventional MMA, all your tactics make perfect sense from what I know of.... So in complete agreement on that premise....

Oh and for the record Jai Harman isn't tall so I'll be good to go with closing the gap on someone like that even if kicking wasn't allowed.

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Ok. Muay Thai stylists are re-nouned for being good, hard kickers.... so Good Luck with that....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Here's one from bruce lee fighting someone taller than he is. In the movie he closes the gap by using his legs.

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There's a number of video on YT of traditional karate style 1-steps presenting the exact same principle(s)...

 

[ShotoNoob]

You won't find much on kung fu in terms of using actual kung fu technique (for the reason you stated many only do forms competition).

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Ok, we're set there.

I definitely don't have to worry about this happening with me.

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You've to me proved you can wear yourself out... so let's move on...

My school only does this type of drill when we want to kick something solid and for conditioning for the impact that occurs on the kicking leg. Other than that we kick each other without the pads because we use techniques that attack kicking leg. The only way the students can learn the techniques is to actually have someone try to kick them. The better the students get the harder the opponent can kick.

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Do you have video... would be helpful to visualize.... I'm not against kick shield drills altogether.... it's just that starting out this way.... and depending on the pad rather than yourself is anti-TMA. Actually kicking against the opponent is more akin the the 1-step structure or other partner kihon karate technique drills.... Shotokan instructors can go into great depth on this.... which is overkill IMO.... the point they are making is along the same lines as yours....

Students at my school doesn't do this type of training either. We punch heavy bags and pads without the gloves because it teaches proper punching technique. One of the students took tkd for about 6 years and he punched the a pad the wrong way and it took a little skin off the knuckles. This happened because the punch was incorrect. No matter what angle I punch my target all of the force needs to go into my target. The heavy bad teaches the same lesson. Punching without gloves teaches correct punching technique and delivers more power. It's also good for conditioning the hands.

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Sorry, Wrong. The individual either does the proper technique or doesn't.... The execution of technique, is strictly speaking, wholly an internal process... this is one of the huge lessons of TMA theory... version sport approaches which assume as you do that resistance, the feedback from same is necessary.... I agree on no gloves...
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The TKD stylist did it wrong for 6 years. HE DID IT WRONG. The value of resistance is that it provides tangible feedback.... However, it's more important to understand how to do the technique correctly. If you understand how to do the technique correctly in principle... the technique with practice will be correct. With the required mental discipline... this will be ever more so.... With no mental discipline, you technique will tend to be sloppy and then the heavy bag or other resistance will tell you so.
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I agree on the heavy bag for conditioning & feedback & testing. Power punching can be developed from punching air as well... Power generation is an internal process.. Whether one develops such through reacting to feedback from a heavy bag or from the mental concentration internally.... they are two separate routes that overlap and exist at the same time.... HOw one actually develops power is art . I really don't use a heavy bag much... so I'm a bit of a TMA purist....

She has great hand an eye coordination, but in Jow Ga we accept that we are going to get hit by a couple of punches and because of this acceptance we condition our bodies to be able to resist the impact better. A hard punch or hard kick is only good if it lands solid so if a person will be ok with taking a hard shot if they can prevent it from landing solid.

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Well this is where free sparring does come into play in the TMA model. Taking hard shots is anti-TMA because of the potential damage and for injury.... Such conditioning and even hard conditioning does exist in the TMA model.... but it is not emphasized in most styles... The issue of conditioning is legitimate and is under-emphasized... I go along with that... This is also where the mental discipline comes into play as well, in that your mind is strong and pain has less of an impact than to an undisciplined person who is affected by emotion and pain easily....

For me. it's more like: If Ronda is punching fast then I have to start my action before she starts hers. If I can do this then I don't have to be fast. I just have to read her attacks well enough to act before she throws her punch.

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Traditional Shotokan karate goes into this process @ length in terms of concept & principle... though it's universal in all TMA. WC especially is specialized in this area (way beyond me). Good luck with reading attacks as a sport fighter.... I don't see this done successfully in sport fighting as a general rule....most common with opponents who mindlessly repeat the same gambit or mistake over & over & over & over. I think we are on the same wavelength in terms of tactics TM wise...

I think you are underestimating the value of sparring.

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Of course you do... An no I'm not.... I heard this and had this thrown in my face tons @ my current dojo. The assistant head instructor (3rd degree black-belt) who was the loudest in ridicule of me (agreeing with your proposition), now refuses to free spar with me. And he can handle the MMA type kickboxer students pretty handily.... He knows I can take him apart....
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From your perspective.... I wouldn't recommend you do anything other than what you are doing... That's where your martial understanding lies...

 

[JowGaWolf]

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Ok, but I don't see the connection to CMA proper... As far as boxing (kickboxing) science goes, every point you put forth makes sense to me.... Especially the "Angle-Out & Round Kick...." tactic against the jab...
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Couple of interesting points on the YT vid above....
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1. The tactic shorty uses to infight the longer reach is equally and easly blocked by tall instructor in the demo. So you are assuming or trying to have a faster reaction time to pull of shorty's manuever against the longer reach.... Good Luck with that....
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2. Shorty's head movement to slip the jab.... places him @ a disadvantage line-of-vision, hence concentration wise. Traditional karate kihon never does such for that reason.... among others..... So again, good luck with that against a tough opponent.
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Again in summary... by boxing, conventional MMA, all your tactics make perfect sense from what I know of.... So in complete agreement on that premise....

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Ok. Muay Thai stylists are re-nouned for being good, hard kickers.... so Good Luck with that....

I showed the video of the MMA fighters falling short with one of the upper blocks in the video. I originally thought that I didn't try an upper block before and then I remembered why I didn't try the upper block. Tomorrow is sparring day so I can demo some scenarios and follow up where possible. I was hoping the 6'3" student would spar tonight but he injured his shoulder some how. I've slipped jabs before like the MMA fighters are showing but it doesn't work that way for us.

In Jow Ga we don't try to react faster, we try to react before an action is taken. For example when we parry a jab, we don't parry it because we see it coming, we automatically parry as part of the moment regardless of if we think a jab is coming or not. The problem that I have with move is that I can't get deep enough inside the reach to be effect with a punch. I actually have video of that so you can see how I was coming up short.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I showed the video of the MMA fighters falling short with one of the upper blocks in the video. I originally thought that I didn't try an upper block before and then I remembered why I didn't try the upper block. Tomorrow is sparring day so I can demo some scenarios and follow up where possible. I was hoping the 6'3" student would spar tonight but he injured his shoulder some how. I've slipped jabs before like the MMA fighters are showing but it doesn't work that way for us.

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I'll take a look.... I made the point repeatedly that it is mental discipline that make the kihon or any karate or TMA "work." "No mental discipline, no karate blocky work..."
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I have no doubt evasion is a cornerstone of your game.... I use it too, but most often it's not needed...for me....

IIn Jow Ga we don't try to react faster, we try to react before an action is taken.

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That is the more sophisticated mental discipline overall striking tactic of traditional karate as well.... but it requires much greater mental discipline & mental effort.... Waiting for your opponent to make the 1st move is the most efficient use of mental discipline; and that is what, surprisingly enough, is presented in your "Short vs. Tall" YT Vid. re against longer reach.

For example when we parry a jab, we don't parry it because we see it coming, we automatically parry as part of the moment regardless of if we think a jab is coming or not.

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Yeah, you and K-Man on exactly the same plane.... with that.... Not the mental discipline I do at all.. Everything I do is precisely targeted against the opponent's actual movement / technique. Mental discipline has to be spot on.

The problem that I have with move is that I can't get deep enough inside the reach to be effect with a punch. I actually have video of that so you can see how I was coming up short.

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Right, precisely the problem for the boxing, sport-fighting mindset. If I have to chase someone the length of the dojo, I will. I've had opponents backed into a corner of the dojo, cowering.... In short, the footwork of boxing, etc. is too 1-dimensional to advance on effectively on the elusive opponent.... it's more designed for competitors trading fisticuffs, with that understanding....
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HERE'S A CLIP OF THE CONVENTIONAL SPORT KARATE MODEL FOR CLOSING THE DISTANCE.... I PUT UP EARLIER TATSUYA NAGA DOING A MORE TRADITIONAL MEANS....RE SHOTOKAN KARATE KUMITE....

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Now, I don't bop & spring up & down like these karateka.... this is a karate kumite convention that compensates for Shotokan's typical use of wide stances,and now has become sport karate convention quite across the board...
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The point is not the springing & bouncing per se.... it's the larger, overall tactical principle of how to execute mobility very quickly to cover distance & close on the opponent [see A].... the traditional model moves very quickly by transitioning between stances, like the Taikyoku kata vid I put up....
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I don't look @ it as "closing the distance." This is a sport-fighting mindset, IMO. What I do is "close on the target..." It's entering striking range. It's approaching the target... key word: TARGET. I want, tactically, to be in position to strike the target..... how do I do that.... traveling in stances.... kihon karate basics.... that's what stances are for... Takes Mental Discipline..... otherwise, do Jai Harman type stuff...not WC, let alone TMA.
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Note [A]: ...and deliver full body power....
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EDIT#1: These guys & gals are very agile, very speedy & precise strikers.... also notice how they use a non-hands up guard.... also notice they don't know how to block.... they move around..... some good lessons in this sport karate model..... but it is a limited subset of what mentally disciplined driven karate can do....
EDIT:#2: This is a model that can best a strong hitter like Ronda Rousey..... because they are fast, very accurate, and highly mobile.... And not what Holly Holm is training....
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EDIT#3: the problem with this karate kumite model is that it's all rapid mobility, landing speedy strikes.... There is not ANY active defense & tactical changes are quite restricted.... basically super-speeded up kihon techniques...
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EDIT#4: In the instruction part near the end of the vid... the instructor says that the key part of the kumite is to work on "timing." That is wrong. Timing is the result of some internal action on your part.... pure luck... guessing right.... fast reactions, instincts... or where TMA takes it KIME arising from overall highly-disciplined mental strength.... it's not timing per se.... it's mentally what I described above....
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So the best we can hope for based on the instructional demo YT vid we have here, is the sporting ability of "fast reactions." Which is legit sport karate....
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EDIT#5; See the MMA audience spectators stumbling trying mimic the lesson...

 

[drop bear]

. The problem that I have with move is that I can't get deep enough inside the reach to be effect with a punch. I actually have video of that so you can see how I was coming up short.

Cross step

 

[ShotoNoob]

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In Jow Ga we don't try to react faster, we try to react before an action is taken. For example when we parry a jab, we don't parry it because we see it coming, we automatically parry as part of the moment regardless of if we think a jab is coming or not. The problem that I have with move is that I can't get deep enough inside the reach to be effect with a punch. I actually have video of that so you can see how I was coming up short.

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When I act, it's @ a defined target.... targeting NOT anticipating/ guessing.... So in the "Short vs. Tall" YT vid on adjusting for the longer reach.... short guys moves his [i just smashed him in his face]; OR, short guys moves his head and I smash it where he moved it too.... I don't throw punches at a heavy bag.... I mentally strike where the target is RIGHT NOW!!!!! And that is too dynamic to move out of the way off....
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Of course it takes maturity & long periods of mental training to actually do this.... in olden TMA times originally called "forms," LATER "kata." Starts day 1 with "air punching kihon."

 

[ShotoNoob]

Kihon karate fail....UPPER BLOCK JOKE TRAINING....

I'm sure the self-defence members here use this in their marketing presentations...
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Just going to a class where they show some physical kihon karate moves..... it's never GONNA work 'cause there is no mental discipline developed.... total misapplication of TMA theory....
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Zero mental discipline = massive fail.... Also, these girls have the physical base sufficient to beat up their 5-year old brother....
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Good luck with guys pounding this into on another in full contact,, ,, the alpha-male version of this girly "feel good" exercise....

 

[JowGaWolf]

Shotonoob
I'll get some better pictures and maybe video of me kicking the pads tomorrow during sparring class to help make it easier to visualize what I'm talking about.

Good luck with reading attacks as a sport fighter

This is an example of my ability to read an attack before the attack happens. These are screen shots from a video of me sparring with a beginner from another fighting system. The process of reading an attack and countering it before the attack happens is the same regardless of the skill level of my opponent.
Background information: Both of these sparring matches were ultra light sparring.
1. Both cases pictures are of him attacking me.
2. Both cases I knew what punch he was going to punch
3. Both cases I intentionally leave my stomach wide open (it only appears that way)
4. #3 made it possible for me to know #2
5. I watch for intent and react to intent. Intent comes before action. If I react to the intent of him hitting me in the stomach then I can actually counter the attack before it even occurs.

How do I prove that I'm reacting to intent? Notice that I lift my foot before he actually throws the punch.

How do I prove that I knew what attack he would do? See pictures below
The left picture I knew his jab would be high which would leave the space under his arm open. "This is me fighting where my opponent isn't" His lead hand is no longer occupying the same space as it did before he threw the punch. The kick lands on his ribs

The right picture is just a soft round house tap. The attack that he use was a bait that would have allowed him grab my leg, so instead of kicking to the center I kicked to the outside landing the kick on his triceps leaving him with nothing to grab.

Here's a video of the same concept explained above against a more skilled fighter, the same guy that made me frustrated with trying to close the gap by without using my legs/feet. At 0:13 I already know what punch he's going to throw and where my opening will be long before he actually punches. The kick in the video looks like it's a fast kick but it's not. It only looks fast because I had already started kicking long before he threw the punch. The kick was actually slow compared to some of my other kicks. It takes less than a second to kick. This one took a little over a second from the time I started the kick to when my foot came down. Again I started my counter before he started his attack.

Note: This is free sparring to work on technique. He was working on his combos. I was working on my reaction time. Punches hitting the face or the head weren't allowed because we didn't have head protection or a mouth piece.

It takes a while to learn how to sense intent. I'm still learning as I'm not able to pick it up right a way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Cross step

Thanks. I haven't tried that one either.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Shotonoob
I'll get some better pictures and maybe video of me kicking the pads tomorrow during sparring class to help make it easier to visualize what I'm talking about.


This is an example of my ability to read an attack before the attack happens. These are screen shots from a video of me sparring with a beginner from another fighting system. The process of reading an attack and countering it before the attack happens is the same regardless of the skill level of my opponent.
Background information: Both of these sparring matches were ultra light sparring.
1. Both cases pictures are of him attacking me.
2. Both cases I knew what punch he was going to punch
3. Both cases I intentionally leave my stomach wide open (it only appears that way)
4. #3 made it possible for me to know #2
5. I watch for intent and react to intent. Intent comes before action. If I react to the intent of him hitting me in the stomach then I can actually counter the attack before it even occurs.

How do I prove that I'm reacting to intent? Notice that I lift my foot before he actually throws the punch.

How do I prove that I knew what attack he would do? See pictures below
The left picture I knew his jab would be high which would leave the space under his arm open. "This is me fighting where my opponent isn't" His lead hand is no longer occupying the same space as it did before he threw the punch. The kick lands on his ribs

The right picture is just a soft round house tap. The attack that he use was a bait that would have allowed him grab my leg, so instead of kicking to the center I kicked to the outside landing the kick on his triceps leaving him with nothing to grab.

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Essentially the theory of 1-step sparring... except for depending on your fore-knowledge or foresight, how you call it...
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Perfect tactical execution on your part.... great training illustration...

Here's a video of the same concept explained above against a more skilled fighter, the same guy that made me frustrated with trying to close the gap by without using my legs/feet. At 0:13 I already know what punch he's going to throw and where my opening will be long before he actually punches. The kick in the video looks like it's a fast kick but it's not. It only looks fast because I had already started kicking long before he threw the punch. The kick was actually slow compared to some of my other kicks. It takes less than a second to kick. This one took a little over a second from the time I started the kick to when my foot came down. Again I started my counter before he started his attack.

Note: This is free sparring to work on technique. He was working on his combos. I was working on my reaction time. Punches hitting the face or the head weren't allowed because we didn't have head protection or a mouth piece.

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That was excellent execution.... Although to be technical.... an opponent tactically clever enough to catch you leg as suggested in video 1, might have grabbed the straight kick in this example.... he was following boxing convention, IMO...
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Any how, by the appearance, ya times it perfectly.... He really set himself up by attempting to close from outside kicking range & you nailed him on his follow-up entry... NICE.
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He's focused on boxing hands.... and so his guard is set on that also....
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It takes a while to learn how to sense intent. I'm still learning as I'm not able to pick it up right a way.

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Your illustrations highlight, in principle, how my karate outfights boxers... I really don't use my kicks 'cause hands are so superior for me... Kicks are more an accessory for me....
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You back up constantly... and depend on a lot of parries and passive arm guarding blocks akin to good, defensive boxers... I don't back up, I usually move ahead in one way on another. I apply active kihon or applied karate blocks (including parries); then counter or just strike (in effect) ahead of the opponent.
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Of course, karate is not a guarantee & taking a boxer like the one in the 'skilled' vid lightly... is pure folly.

 

[ShotoNoob]

IF YOU WERE SPARRING ME, HERE'S AN INDICATION OF WHAT I WOULD DO (DIFFERENT):

Shotonoob
I'll get some better pictures and maybe video of me kicking the pads tomorrow during sparring class to help make it easier to visualize what I'm talking about.


This is an example of my ability to read an attack before the attack happens. These are screen shots from a video of me sparring with a beginner from another fighting system. The process of reading an attack and countering it before the attack happens is the same regardless of the skill level of my opponent.
Background information: Both of these sparring matches were ultra light sparring.
1. Both cases pictures are of him attacking me.
2. Both cases I knew what punch he was going to punch
3. Both cases I intentionally leave my stomach wide open (it only appears that way)
4. #3 made it possible for me to know #2
5. I watch for intent and react to intent. Intent comes before action. If I react to the intent of him hitting me in the stomach then I can actually counter the attack before it even occurs.

How do I prove that I'm reacting to intent? Notice that I lift my foot before he actually throws the punch.

How do I prove that I knew what attack he would do? See pictures below

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First of all, your opponent is hanging outside of striking range. He then springs / lunges forward like BAD sport karate... Machida himself is highly guilty of this and sometimes with disastrous results... I never look like that....
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Second of all, youR stomach is open... he's just too bungEly to capitalize on the opening, or your blocking is too good: Or BOTH....\
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Traditional 1-step sparring does not fixate on superficial openings... only actual ones....
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Honestly, I don't see from the vid how you knew that.... thought it's logical.... I also don't see why he couldn't have rocketed ahead with a reverse punch to the 'open' stomach. But let's agree you saw the jab coming...
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The left picture I knew his jab would be high which would leave the space under his arm open. "This is me fighting where my opponent isn't" His lead hand is no longer occupying the same space as it did before he threw the punch. The kick lands on his ribs

The right picture is just a soft round house tap. The attack that he use was a bait that would have allowed him grab my leg, so instead of kicking to the center I kicked to the outside landing the kick on his triceps leaving him with nothing to grab.

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Here's what I would have done...
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FIRST: I could have cared less about grabbing your leg... that's too much commitment under one-step principles...

SECOND: as you raise to kick, I would step-in right inside the kick, you are now open on several planes... From there there are a number of hand strikes, some with block first to your right-SIDE attacking limbs.... the simplest would be my right straight punch into your face through your single guarding left.... Since you are actually committing your left hand to block the 'non-open' stomach... it's would be useless to my face punch... This would be the kenpo law case of straight (my straight right punch) beats circle (your round kick to my ribs [where they were]).
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Here's the 1-step principe... very basic, applied beginner karate form....
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Before I do that though, based on your presumptions about sparring in martial training.... I would say you are doing & training exactly to your stated principles...IMHO...

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Now performing this one-step the way your boxer brother does his boxing won't work because he has already pre-programmed his gambit in advance...
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The one-step works when it is directed by high-level mental discipline, powered by KIME. When you move (round kick to ribs); I move re 1-step (strike to the head). Unlike your applied free sparring approach, you wouldn't really learn a thing from sparring with me other that my level of mental discipline is higher than that of boxing brothers, and greater than yours too (hopefully in my mind).

 

[ShotoNoob]

Here's the Perfect Weapon Movie Trailer...
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The effect I want to illustrate is when Speakman is fighting the Spider Arm Tatoo'd "tong" member in the shop.... That's the outcome of 1-step kumite done to standards
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TIME:0:36

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The actual exchange uncut is in the 1st Speakman YT vid I posted. And I don't really use spinning backfists.... just head on strikes... including the backfist once in a while....\
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The opening gambit by Speakman against the street thugs is also very similar to the karate form I execute.... really standard, targeted strikes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

an opponent tactically clever enough to catch you leg as suggested in video 1, might have grabbed the straight kick in this example.... he was following boxing convention, IMO...

Correct on the analysis.

You back up constantly

Am I backing up or am I analyzing my opponent's movement?

 

[ShotoNoob]

HERE'S TWO TANG SOO DO CLIPS FROM A TRADITIONALLY BASED FIGHTER....
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Tom Bloom "Traditional Kata"... looks like a stylized Heian series kata...

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Guy's very athletic, way more than me... and I don't practice kata like this (a no, no). But here you can see speed & power with both poise & precision...

 

[ShotoNoob]

NOW HERE IS TOM BLOOM IN FULL CONTACT COMPETITON:
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His opponent(s) is/are more typical of sport karate convention, a lot of poorly disciplined tactics... Tom uses a side stance which is more common of Okinawan karate styles...
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Tom does not back up. Tom does not throw a technique and hope to score... Tom exchanges & finishes...
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The 2nd losing opponent is like the boxer with mobility, this stupid bouncing around in readiness the way even Machida has been seen to do... the clever, flashy reactions that have totallly zero mentally directed discipline.... and how does all that athletics work out...?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Correct on the analysis.

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Your kick was perfect, so his catch would have to have been ever perfecterrrrrrr.

Am I backing up or am I analyzing my opponent's movement?

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OK, you forced me to give you credit.... BOTH. aND BY YOUR TRAINING philosophy exactly correct on both counts....
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EDIT: My global answer.... Perfect Weapon Trailer Time 0:36. That's a me...

 

[ShotoNoob]

Additional Edit to my EDIT @ Post #39.... why dojo 3rd degree black-belt assistant head instructor refuses my invitation to spar....
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Edit: even though I'm kinda a laszlo kind of guy

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No heavy bag for me & laszlo... break a da der board; break a der face....