Using Nails in a Fight, Effective of Ineffective?

[Tgace]

Do you see the problem part of that?

I wasnt meaning to be TOO flippant

, but I would say that more dead bodies are found with the BG's skin under their nails than are found with the BG's blood on their knuckles, elbows, knees, pocket knives, etc.....catch my meaning?

 

[Cruentus]

catch my meaning?

Absolutely...point well made!

 

[47MartialMan]

We have a alternate way for them to do this and we have them test it the heavy bags, mohk yahn Jjng, and the makiwara.

I'd be interested in that; I prefer longer nails on my right hand for musical playing,but have sacrificed them for tight fists

It is not as easy as simply to have the hand become somewhat spherical or ovoid. The hard practice, is getting the mind to instruct the hand to do it naturally per opposition that before.

From past observations, females appear to easily adapt to it than males. Perhaps the males are "set" by the other way.

As soon as I get my camcorder hooked to 'putor, I will mpeg it for you.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I am going to express a difference of opinion here, so please don't take offense.

If you want to "win" on the street, I don't suggest doing things that will create only superficial damage or a little pain. Scratching the nails or raking with a key would fall into this category.

Most likely if someone has the nuts to attack you, they think that they'll win. They may have size, strength, weapons, numbers, sheer aggressiveness, or any number of things in their favor. Superficial damage or any technique reliant only on "pain complaince" is just not enough to stop someone geared up to hurt you.

Who wins the fight is who brings the most, first. In other words, you need to create as much trauma as quickly as possible to stop the threat enough to allow you to escape.

Eye gauges are great for creating trauma, but a simple claw or thumb gauge (nails or not) with intent to severely damage is enough to do the trick, and is more efficient and effective then trying to scratch with nails or keys.

Paul

Hey Paul,

No offense taken, I somehow missed this thread, and thoughts are always welcome. I mostly agree with all of your points, and many others who have posted. I honestly don't know if the DNA thing is an urban legend or not. I'd also be interested in seeing statistically how successfully it has been in catching attackers, but collecting DNA is not the primary objective in what we teach.

We do teach woman to claw or rake across a man's face and eyes, and DNA is a byproduct of that action - a bonus in my opinion. I agree that clawing or raking alone is not going to stop a violent attacker though. We teach woman to use their nails (I agree with Tess that artificial nails can be a hindrance because they are extra painful when they break off) or keys in conjunction with striking at least three other places, because an attacker can not hold three things that hurt, and once an attacker is preoccupied with their pain an opportunity to run may present itself and should be taken. I certainly wouldn't wait around or wonder if he will catch me. I believe that if he wants to shoot me he will, but maybe after a rape or beating. Personally, shoot me running!

In terms of nails, here's one application we teach. We teach woman to use their nails to claw as a follow through move to a palm strike down onto the bride of an attacker's nose. The claw rakes down the face digging into the eyes and continues down the face as you complete the entire move with follow up strikes.

One thing to consider, having keys in hand in the readied position reminds a person to think about his/her surroundings and may increase overall awareness when alone in a parking lot. The car key is set in the proper position to open the door - getting you into your car faster, while the others are held out with the ribbed edges up to surprise an attacker. If it gets a person thinking, to me it's a good thing.

MJ

 

[47MartialMan]

One thing to consider, having keys in hand in the readied position reminds a person to think about his/her surroundings and may increase overall awareness when alone in a parking lot. The car key is set in the proper position to open the door - getting you into your car faster, while the others are held out with the ribbed edges up to surprise an attacker. If it gets a person thinking, to me it's a good thing.
Or "hand-on-gun"

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Or "hand-on-gun"

Perhaps, but while the keys are admittedly already a stretch, that would make a good topic for a new discussion. :asian:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

That would be bridge of an attacker's nose LOL no hitting the brides!

 

[47MartialMan]

Back to the nails..from my observations, many female students that have nails and try to punch like a male, tend to have these nails cut/dig into their palms. Worse, cuts happen upon impact. Why punch a heavy bag or such with gloves when one has to actually "feel' what is happening in the action? (I am not talking about repetitious practices/drills)

 

[Cruentus]

Hey Paul,

No offense taken, I somehow missed this thread, and thoughts are always welcome. I mostly agree with all of your points, and many others who have posted. I honestly don't know if the DNA thing is an urban legend or not. I'd also be interested in seeing statistically how successfully it has been in catching attackers, but collecting DNA is not the primary objective in what we teach.

We do teach woman to claw or rake across a man's face and eyes, and DNA is a byproduct of that action - a bonus in my opinion. I agree that clawing or raking alone is not going to stop a violent attacker though. We teach woman to use their nails (I agree with Tess that artificial nails can be a hindrance because they are extra painful when they break off) or keys in conjunction with striking at least three other places, because an attacker can not hold three things that hurt, and once an attacker is preoccupied with their pain an opportunity to run may present itself and should be taken. I certainly wouldn't wait around or wonder if he will catch me. I believe that if he wants to shoot me he will, but maybe after a rape or beating. Personally, shoot me running!

In terms of nails, here's one application we teach. We teach woman to use their nails to claw as a follow through move to a palm strike down onto the bride of an attacker's nose. The claw rakes down the face digging into the eyes and continues down the face as you complete the entire move with follow up strikes.

One thing to consider, having keys in hand in the readied position reminds a person to think about his/her surroundings and may increase overall awareness when alone in a parking lot. The car key is set in the proper position to open the door - getting you into your car faster, while the others are held out with the ribbed edges up to surprise an attacker. If it gets a person thinking, to me it's a good thing.

MJ

A lot of the disagreements in this thread I think might be due to semantics. Where I would consider a finger or thumb strike or gauge to the eye, others might consider that "using your nails." When I think of using nails, I am thinking of shallow "cat" scratches, and little flicks to the eye. These can be fast, but I don't feel that they create enough trauma. If you have time to flick someone in the eye, then you have time to jam your fingers or thumb into the eye, which will have a more drastic effect. For womens self-defense, the woman needs to have as much of a drastic effect as possible with each strike because most likely it will take more strikes for the woman to stop a larger male attacker, and any time wasted could cost a life. Anyways, I think that a lot of people who are saying to "use nails" are meaning it more in the context of creating Trauma with finger gauges as I explained rather then the other way.

I like that you guys aren't stopping at one strike, though. I think I also like what you explained as a palm strike followed by a face grab where if someone had nails, they could aid in the damage of that technique? If I have it right, I like that one too.

Also, about the DNA thing. I have heard that in this thread more then once, but it doesn't seem right to me. The idea that your going to get the DNA from under the nails after an attack seems to only apply if your a dead body lying there when the cops find you. If you manage to fight your way to escape, and you have DNA under your nails, through the process of getting to safety and getting to a police station and having material from your nails scraped to go to a lab, I am thinking that chances are high that the DNA will be contaminated. Forensics can get DNA from a body because it hasn't been moving around and contaminating the evidence. Furthermore, if the DNA manages to remain uncontaminated, it really does nothing to aid in the capture of the criminal. There is no database or way to track someone down with DNA. It would help in getting a conviction, however, if the assailent was actually caught. So even if it is possible, I am thinking that the focus should be getting safety and calling the authorities; they will sort it out and decide if it is possible to extract DNA from the finger nails.

I am not a forensics expert, but neither is anyone else who has posted here so far. So I could be wrong, but I am not putting any wieight into the DNA thing until I know for sure.

Paul

 

[47MartialMan]

But how effective, per strength, are the human nails? They seem to become more brittle the longer they grow. (Maybe not toe-nails...yuk)

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Paul first this is a good discussion :asian: , and an important one. I think you are right about the semantics...I was thinking scratch their eyes out LOL but literally, really I agree - create damage and I mean this for all woman but we gear this toward woman who have not had the advantage of Martial Arts training on an ongoing basis. Some woman are not interested in ongoing training so we try to give them as much as we can in a non-complicated way so they can practice and hopefully remember it.

I like that you guys aren't stopping at one strike, though. I think I also like what you explained as a palm strike followed by a face grab where if someone had nails, they could aid in the damage of that technique? If I have it right, I like that one too.

Yes basically that's the idea...(in Kenpo we refer to it as economy of motion) - you are already moving your hand in that direction so you then take advantage of the opportunity to combine another attack to the first movement, the second movement takes advantage of the directional movement of the first strike in this case using the same hand but changing weapons. So here we combine the heel palm strike with a raking claw - both moving in a downward direction. For woman with their own nails (or men for that matter) the nails dig or gouge into the eyes as you rake down.

Again, as far as the DNA I'd really like to hear more as well, maybe someone on the board with experience in law enforcement can speak to that.:asian:

MJ

 

[Tgace]

If you survive, if the attacker was unknown and the attack particularly savage and/or an attempted murder, rape or perhaps they think you were attacked by a serial offender etc. Yeah they could try to take nail scrapings. If it was a simple mugging, or something like that then probably not.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

If you survive, if the attacker was unknown and the attack particularly savage and/or an attempted murder, rape or perhaps they think you were attacked by a serial offender etc. Yeah they could try to take nail scrapings. If it was a simple mugging, or something like that then probably not.

Tgace thanks for sharing your respected perspective on this. :asian:

 

[Tgace]

Its a lot like latent prints (fingerprints). People want CSI to swoop down and process their car when their stereo system gets stolen. It just isnt going to happen (unless there has been a string of such crimes in the area). If somebody broke into your home while you were asleep then yeah, that crime is going to get some more attention. Things like solvability factors, severity of the crime, specific suspects involved, frequency of the offense, etc. all come into account.

 

[Suntail]

I feel kind of stupid saying this, but draw as much blood as you can, without getting yourself in to deep. If you have to use nails, do it. (I prefer tearing the ear. It bleeds well and most people aren't pain resistant to it.) Bleeding may make them think they can lose. If you're outnumbered make them bleed. Seeing an ally bleed badly brakes the mob mentality. If you can get that blood to splatter onto other people, all the better.

 

[47MartialMan]

I feel kind of stupid saying this, but draw as much blood as you can, without getting yourself in to deep. If you have to use nails, do it. (I prefer tearing the ear. It bleeds well and most people aren't pain resistant to it.) Bleeding may make them think they can lose. If you're outnumbered make them bleed. Seeing an ally bleed badly brakes the mob mentality. If you can get that blood to splatter onto other people, all the better.

Not stupid...I had seen this actually work. A guy actually got punch in the mouth so bad.......that blood splirted on two other people nearby. I do not know if people were afraid of the bodily fluid or the spectacle of it.

 

[KenpoTex]

I feel kind of stupid saying this, but draw as much blood as you can, without getting yourself in to deep. If you have to use nails, do it. (I prefer tearing the ear. It bleeds well and most people aren't pain resistant to it.) Bleeding may make them think they can lose. If you're outnumbered make them bleed. Seeing an ally bleed badly brakes the mob mentality. If you can get that blood to splatter onto other people, all the better.

Not stupid at all. If I'm faced with multiple attackers my strategy (if running like hell is not an option) would be to pick one, go preemptive, and mess him up so bad that the others won't want any.

 

[Simon Curran]

Not stupid at all. If I'm faced with multiple attackers my strategy (if running like hell is not an option) would be to pick one, go preemptive, and mess him up so bad that the others won't want any.

Ditto, I remember my uncle telling me as a kid (he used to get into a lot of scrapes) to go for the biggest one and do him some damage, then the others are more likely to lose their appetite...

 

[Fightback2]

I feel kind of stupid saying this, but draw as much blood as you can, without getting yourself in to deep. If you have to use nails, do it. (I prefer tearing the ear. It bleeds well and most people aren't pain resistant to it.) Bleeding may make them think they can lose. If you're outnumbered make them bleed. Seeing an ally bleed badly brakes the mob mentality. If you can get that blood to splatter onto other people, all the better.

Blood spatter is great in movies but I don't think this is the track to take in real life. A great deal of pain can be caused without arterial spray. Consider the problems you have with the people who are the "splatterees". Also, without being paranoid, keep in mind that contact with someone else's blood may also get you in contact with some pretty nasty diseases.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Also, without being paranoid, keep in mind that contact with someone else's blood may also get you in contact with some pretty nasty diseases.

Our instructor recommends not punching to the mouth because of the risk of cutting your own hand and all the nastiness in the human mouth at the same time