Hanzou
Grandmaster
Uh, damaging locks that can dislocate joints, snap ligaments, and tear tendons are allowed in competition.
best lethal grip breaks
- Thread starter Jusroc
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Uh, damaging locks that can dislocate joints, snap ligaments, and tear tendons are allowed in competition.
I'm quoting this bit of your initial post in order to clarify some confusion caused by your post title.
In both this and an earlier thread of yours you use the word "lethal" to mean something different from the common definition of the word. Normally "lethal" means "sufficient to cause death". In this thread and the other one, you are using it to mean "capable of causing injury", which is a different matter. Some of the comment in this thread and the other one are from people who think you are using the dictionary definition.
Also, some of the comments seem to think you are asking for ways to break "lethal grips" (such as a choke hold). Based on the quote above, I believe you are actually suggesting studying ways of breaking free of an opponent's grip which also do damage in the process. Am I correct?
In both Judo and BJJ, peeling back of individual fingers is not normally allowed in competition or most sparring rules. That's because in the heat of the moment it's too easy for damage to be done before your opponent can tap. However smart BJJ practitioners do learn to grip in such a way that makes it difficult to isolate the fingers effectively. This is partly for street application and partly because in competition there are always going to be some dirty fighters who subscribe to the rule that something is only illegal if the ref sees it.
Judo has in recent years adopted some additional restrictions on grip breaks (such as excluding 2 handed grip breaks), not for safety but to make the matches more spectator friendly. Audiences want to see the big throws, not 5 minutes of fighting to get a grip.
I have had a thumb badly broken (so that it needed surgery) from a sparring partner applying a grip break using his knee a little too enthusiastically. The technique he used was legal in BJJ competition, as far as I know, and I've used it and had it used against me before without injury. That time I just got unlucky. It's not something you could count on to do damage, but it's an effective grip break and if it inflicted injury in a real fight, that would be a bonus.
As far as the whole repertoire of finger locks and standing wrist locks against someone grabbing you, I have a few thoughts...
- Such techniques can be valid under the right circumstances and in the right moment, but they are kind of low-percentage and require a significant foundation of grappling skill in order to apply effectively. I wouldn't recommend them for a non-grappler looking to use them as self-defense against an attacker who is a skilled grappler.
- Such techniques are generally demonstrated against static wrist and lapel grabs. In a real fight, a grappler is more likely to be using collar ties, russian ties, front headlocks, arm drags, underhooks, overhooks, body locks, double legs, and single legs. It's going to be a lot harder to apply finger locks against any of those controls. (Especially when the opponent is using those controls to move you around and disrupt your structure.) The one common real life scenario where you might have to deal with a lapel grab is one where an untrained attacker grabs your shirt with one hand and tries to pummel you with the other. In that case, dealing with the punches takes precedence over trying to isolate a finger.
- If you are a skilled grappler, it's worth exploring these damaging grip breaks at least a little, even if they are disallowed in your particular sport competition. Partly that's so you can learn to keep yourself safe from them. Partly it's so you have them available as a little extra back up tool. More often than not, you won't actually pull the technique off against anyone good, but the threat of inflicting damage can force your opponent to adjust their position. I've only been caught with a standing wristlock once in decades of sparring, but I've been forced to bail on a grip I wanted multiple times because of the threat of a wrist lock.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Understood, and I agree with your assessment here. My point was that running into a Bjj black belt trying to kill you is possible, just highly unlikely.
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For a standup striker who just wants the fundamentals of defending against a grappler, six months of BJJ will actually be less than ideal in most cases. That's because they'll likely end up spending a significant portion of the time working on aspects of grappling which aren't so relevant to their needs, such as passing guard, submissions, and sport oriented techniques. Wrestling might be a little better, but it's hard to find dedicated pure wrestling classes for adults outside of school. MMA is probably the best of the commonly available options which would cover the most relevant material in a short time frame.
If I was teaching private lessons for a stand-up fighter who just wanted a decent foundation for fighting a grappler, I would cover the following:
distance management and angled footwork
maintaining a solid stance
clinch fighting, including pummeling, grip fighting, frames, breaking free, and striking from within the clinch
sprawling
ukemi
basic punch protection and escape from the bottom of common positions such as mount, side mount, headlock, kesa gatame, closed guard against a grounded opponent, basic open guard with feet on hips against a standing opponent
technical standup and how to do it safely when someone is trying to hit you or keep you down.
In 6 months I think most people with a good background in a standup art could develop a solid anti-grappling component to their skill set based on the above. Obviously they'd need more to compete in high-level MMA or fight an high-level grappler, but it should be enough for most self-defense purposes.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Perhaps I'm a bit skewed on what the first 6 months of BJJ looks like due to my background in Relson Gracie JJ, but what you're describing is pretty much what's covered in their fundamentals curriculum.
I'd consider that a very good thing. Unfortunately in my experience it's far from typical. Many schools don't even have dedicated beginner classes and so new students are tossed into whatever material the instructor is covering that week. Even those which do have beginner classes will spend some of that time on guard passes and submissions, while doing minimal standup work.
Hey Tony
Thanks for answering and asking the questions you have.
Apologies, with regards to the word I have used.
Please regard the word "lethal" in this case, as meaning "to cause significant injury / damage"
and to differentiate these types of grip breaks from the run of the normal allowed in competition grip breaks (in BJJ / Judo etc.).
I started the post to see what people's experiences were, if people (especially those who follow a self defence martial art ethos) practised types of grip breaks which could disarm someone who is skilled in BJJ / Judo.
Now, I don't believe there are no techniques that work.
I just wanted to see what people knew. Pick people's brains.
I have righteous reasons for asking, and if you knew my personal circumstances, you would be shocked at what certain people who train both BJJ and Judo have gotten away with (the people I speak of aren't famous, aren't known players, but people who do BJJ / Judo).
I think it is for the best that i go into too much details at this point in time. To say that my circumstances are complex, is an understatement.
Just for the record, I am not a hater with regards to BJJ or Judo, quiet the opposite, and some of the practitioners are friends of mine. I still train a bit, and continue to train in one way or another.
Perhaps not for competition.
it is the knowledge of how criminal some of these people are, while also knowing that they are training,
that makes me think that it would be a good idea to develop a what if strategy.
I also ask from a self defence perspective, as from a self defence perspective, it is good to have an solution for every problem that you may come up against.
Years ago, I remember buying a Jeet Kune Do defences against BJJ book
which was on the market years ago, but i lent it to a buddy from kenpo who didn't return it.
Think the guy was from the Larry Hartsell Lineage
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Trust me, he did you a favor.
I really don't know. Don't get me wrong, the Gracie Jiu Jutsu system is formidable, and I am not knocking it at all.
I think that in many ways the Gracie Family have created a style of martial art that was perhaps more inline with what Prof Jigoro Kano originally set out to create before Prof Kano realised his arts potential as an international sport.
I think that Gracie Jiu Jitsu is more attractive to a greater number of the public in our modern time because it is more applicable to self defence than competition Judo is, at least as Judo is taught.
I am not a Jeet Kune Do expert, but have read my fair share to understand the differences between MMA and self defence, and think that the areas that Jeet Kune Do stylists shine can often be the areas that are illegal in MMA, Judo and BJJ, in the same way that people who subscribe to modern versions of ninjutsu would likely fare better outside of the MMA ring than inside it.
I vaguely remember the book, and also have a fair amount of history applying locks/chokes including traditional locks that aren't allowed in BJJ, such as those found in aikido that a lot of people rule out as ineffective rubbish.
However, I think that if someone skilled at the aikido techniques who also was experienced in BJJ and Judo were to apply some of the aikido techniques with force and speed, they would, in much the same way that the locking techniques that are legal, if applied with too much force while not taking notice of your partners "tap out" responses, could do as much damage as many of the locks that are associated with Judo and BJJ.
Now, don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting that people train like this.
But I am just suggesting that some of the techniques that have been ruled out as rubbish due to the way other people train, or that are too dangerous to train with in rolling / randori due to how hard some of these techniques are to apply with control without damaging ones partner, i am suggesting that some of these banned techniques would work if used with excessive force.
I mean, even the Wally Jay finger locks, if applied swiftly, with great force, while your partner is un-expecting,
would likely do serious damage to one or more fingers and wouldn't take that much skill.
If they were applied with quick precise force, rather than in the way that Professor Wally Jay demonstrates the technique, in a way to make them appear much like many of the aikido techniques that result in the passive training partner having to throw themselves in order to escape from having their joints popped.
Personally, if i were to practice the self defence side of Gracie Jiu Jitsu (or any other quality self defence system), i would include such damaging grip breaking techniques as part of the game.
Sure, its not as nurturing in philosophy with regards to the destructive nature of such techniques,
however, i think that in some rare circumstances you need a way to cause damage quick, as you may not have the luxury to roll for excessive amounts of time on the floor before you wear out your physically bigger attacker before you tire him out so you can then tap him out...
frank raud
Master of Arts
“Punch a black belt in the face, he becomes a brown belt. Punch him again, purple...”
— Carlson Gracie
Yeah, but if you punch him a third time....you just might piss him off.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
No argument there. Judo does a pretty good job of shooting itself in the proverbial foot.
Don't believe the hype. There's an arena where effectiveness can be tested, and the styles that don't show up, don't show up because they can't measure up, not because they're "too deadly" for the venue.
Yeah, no. I've been around BJJ a long time, and there's really no such thing as a lock/chokes that isn't allowed. There are moves that are frowned upon, like putting your knee on someone's neck and the Scorpion Lock, and there's restrictions on what you can use in competition, but there's no lock/choke that is BANNED from BJJ.
Again, don't believe the hype.
Check out Roy Dean; An Aikido master and a BJJ black belt who actively combines Aikido and BJJ together, and has a chain of schools that promote that concept.
No offense to Dean, but it didn't exactly light the world afire.
Again, you have to understand that locks and chokes tend to be applied in a dominant position. Do you know what that means? That means I am in a highly advantageous position over you, and in prime position to attack and submit you. However, I need to stress that if someone has you in a dominant position, they don't HAVE to choke or lock you. they're also in prime position to ground and pound. And if you think that's some advanced technique that no one knows, think again. I see untrained aholes do it all the time. With that said, one of the LAST things you should be doing is attempting to attack me with a finger grab. Your primary goal would be to play defense and attempt an escape or sweep. If we're actually fighting (which is what you're implying here), you attempting to twist my fingers (considering you could even grab my hands) would be met with me punching/elbowing you in the face over and over again until I decide to choke you unconscious, which would be a merciful end to the encounter.
If I'm some twisted sociopath, I may never stop punching/elbowing you in the face. Which is why I'm telling you to get the idea of grabby fingers out of your head. Yeah, if we're in a gym messing around, I'll put you in a hold and you can try to go for my fingers, but if you're dealing with a sociopath on the street who somehow got a BJJ black belt you better forget that and start shrimping your *** off, because he isn't going to go for chokes or locks, he's going to bash your face in.
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I agree with a lot of what @Tony Dismukes & @Hanzou have said here
In my experience you can:
- Remove grips with certain strikes. These are mechanically similar to the basic BJJ/Judo grip breaks, but make your aggressor much less enthusiastic to regrip. They also have the benefit of creating larger openings for follow ups, but at the cost of wrist control
- Use wrist locks to break grips (even at a high level) or counter attack in their own right, BUT they are very low percentage counter attacks unless coupled with strikes
- Attack the fingers and thumb. BUT there are very specific techniques to set these up (including specific grips, striking etc) and I don't see these being taught or understood more broadly
Generally speaking folks tend to teach the wrist and finger locks without understanding their set ups which tends to result in people trying them out, failing to pull it off in sparring and writing them off as low percentage. Which does them a disservice in terms of self defence
One of the characteristics of small joint locks is that they can be applied very quickly which does tend to cause injuries to your training partners (there's a quote from Jigoro Kano to this effect as he explains why he removed wrist locks from Judo for example)
I'd also add that breaking someone's finger probably won't stop them, so any attacks like this have to be part of a broader technique (icing on the cake so to speak) or at a minimum a discouragement for them to continue (which is very situation dependent)
In my experience you can:
- Remove grips with certain strikes. These are mechanically similar to the basic BJJ/Judo grip breaks, but make your aggressor much less enthusiastic to regrip. They also have the benefit of creating larger openings for follow ups, but at the cost of wrist control
- Use wrist locks to break grips (even at a high level) or counter attack in their own right, BUT they are very low percentage counter attacks unless coupled with strikes
- Attack the fingers and thumb. BUT there are very specific techniques to set these up (including specific grips, striking etc) and I don't see these being taught or understood more broadly
Generally speaking folks tend to teach the wrist and finger locks without understanding their set ups which tends to result in people trying them out, failing to pull it off in sparring and writing them off as low percentage. Which does them a disservice in terms of self defence
One of the characteristics of small joint locks is that they can be applied very quickly which does tend to cause injuries to your training partners (there's a quote from Jigoro Kano to this effect as he explains why he removed wrist locks from Judo for example)
I'd also add that breaking someone's finger probably won't stop them, so any attacks like this have to be part of a broader technique (icing on the cake so to speak) or at a minimum a discouragement for them to continue (which is very situation dependent)
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AIKIKENJITSU
Green Belt
I have studied and taught my version of American Kenpo karate for fifty years. Over the years I have added joint locks. The more you know, the easier to get out of a lock. I teach and study for self defense, not sport, so I add effective joint locks. If a super strong guy grabs your wrist and you can't kick because he's controlling you, then use your joint lock knowledge to get out of his power grip before you strike him.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA
AIKIKENJITSU
Green Belt
I'm 5'2" and so jujitsu would not be the perfect art for me, that's is parts of it. I'm too small to apply a lot of the chokes, etc. but I use info that enables me to get out of locks and also to apply locks that work for me. My main art is American Kenpo which works great for me. But sometimes joint locks are the answer.
Sifu
Puyallup, Wa
I guarantee you that being 5’2” does not make you too small to apply chokes or most other jujutsu techniques.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
You're not too small. Your game would simply be different than say a lanky person with long limbs or a large person with great power and top pressure. In fact, your smaller size would make you an excellent escape artist, and very hard to pin down. This would give you prime opportunities for back takes and/or crucifix style attacks.
MR. SERNA
Yellow Belt
So true.
There are tools on you that can assist with grip release.
1. Your car key under the elbow inside the joint works 90%.
2. A lighter in the same location on the elbow works 100%
3. Groin grab works 80%
4. In a situation where your life depends on you actions, one must think outside of sport fighting with rules in mind. Rather think combat with no rules only survival. Utilize what you have and what you can use around you.
In Brazil fighting in bars is common, so the other patrons often throw the drink glasses and bottles on the ground breaking them in order to keep the brawlers from going to the ground.
Mr. Serna
MR. SERNA
Yellow Belt
Totally agree, being short is the advantage when one understands what jiu-jitsu tools are available.
Mr. Serna
It definitely doesn't make a difference for most Submissions/finishers. But when it comes to positional availability, I struggle against people with less BJJ experience than I. It's a lot tougher for me to hold mount or side control, and I've learned to try to get things from guard and/or while they transition between situations, as I have a much tougher time holding positions than those larger/stronger than me.
Admittedly, I'm also much less experienced so that might be part of it, but given it'll take a year or two of dedicated jujitsu training to pass my experience (I've been doing it on/off with limited dedication for a few years), it's something to keep in mind when discussing with people that are smaller than average.
Someone I train with learned to focus on leg locks. It turns out most people don't focus on them, so she's able to get leg locks regardless of her opponent's height/weight (at least up to a certain experience level).
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