Using Nails in a Fight, Effective of Ineffective?

[Cruentus]

they would be an effective weapon. Clawing is very different from scratching.

If, for example, you're jamming your fingers into your attacker eyballs as if to scratch the back of his skull through his sockets, then I would argue that you are attacking with your fingers and entire body (that is behind your "claw"). Nails may slightly multiply the force, but in most cases they aren't really what makes the tactic work.

Paul

 

[dubljay]

For myself using figner nails in a fight would be about as effective as beating them with a wet tortilla considering I have the nasty habit of chewing on my finger nails.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Many describe using nails in a street fight the woman's way of fighting. However, does that mean it won't work? Would you use your nails in a street fight? Usually if you use your nails to strike, you might be able to cut your attacker. However you might break a nail in the process which can be somewhat painful as well.

I think I would use mine in grappling. Every grip I make I would use my nails and sink it into whatever move (armbar, choke, ect.) I am doing. I don't think I would use it strike, because breaking a nail might not be the wisest (well that is if your life is not at stake, then it is maybe okay).

Also does anyone in hear sharpen their nails just for self-defense? Sound strange to me, but it might no be a bad idea.

The only use for the nails would be using one to scratch or punture the eyes. I've been scratched, it's annoying and it's likely to make me mad, but other than that it's futile.

 

[KenpoTex]

A couple more thoughts...

In self defense you best not rely on something like scratching. Your nerves are dulled by heavy doses of adrenaline and you won't likely know that you were scratched until it is all over.

This is an excellent point. In my experience (and I'm sure quite a few of you can relate) I don't know how many times I've been scratched, scraped, bruised, gouged, etc. in class and, due to addreneline, didn't notice until either after class, or until someone said "hey dude, you're bleeding." A lot of times, you just don't feel it, and that's just in class.

The only use for the nails would be using one to scratch or punture the eyes.

That is one way to look at it, on the other hand, when you jam your thumbs up to the second joint into someone's eyes, it ain't gonna matter how long (or short) your nails are.

 

[MJS]

They, just like all of our tools in SD, have their place and time. Its a matter of knowing what the correct place and time is. A scratch is certainly not a fight stopper, but it may give you that momentary distraction to set something else up. An example of this could be from a bear hug position. Digging your nails into the lat muscle area, can provide a momentary distraction to set up other counters.

Is it the end all be all of techs? Nope, but again, its simply a tool to have in your box, should you choose to use it.

Mike

 

[Makalakumu]

I am going to express a difference of opinion here, so please don't take offense.

If you want to "win" on the street, I don't suggest doing things that will create only superficial damage or a little pain. Scratching the nails or raking with a key would fall into this category.

Most likely if someone has the nuts to attack you, they think that they'll win. They may have size, strength, weapons, numbers, sheer aggressiveness, or any number of things in their favor. Superficial damage or any technique reliant only on "pain complaince" is just not enough to stop someone geared up to hurt you.

Who wins the fight is who brings the most, first. In other words, you need to create as much trauma as quickly as possible to stop the threat enough to allow you to escape.

Eye gauges are great for creating trauma, but a simple claw or thumb gauge (nails or not) with intent to severely damage is enough to do the trick, and is more efficient and effective then trying to scratch with nails or keys.

Paul

I'm going to have to go with Paul on this one. In opinion, for self defense, one has got to develop powerful strikes to vulnerable parts of the body. One must learn how to throw someone to the ground. One must learn how to fall and fight on the ground. Use simple techniques that maximize your speed and strength.

I'm afraid that using your nails or keys, unless used against extremely vulnerable areas of the body, will only be a waste of the precious time that one does not have in a real fight.

 

[sgtmac_46]

A couple more thoughts... This is an excellent point. In my experience (and I'm sure quite a few of you can relate) I don't know how many times I've been scratched, scraped, bruised, gouged, etc. in class and, due to addreneline, didn't notice until either after class, or until someone said "hey dude, you're bleeding." A lot of times, you just don't feel it, and that's just in class.
That is one way to look at it, on the other hand, when you jam your thumbs up to the second joint into someone's eyes, it ain't gonna matter how long (or short) your nails are.

You got a point there.

 

[MA-Caver]

MACaver,

When we look at the dynamics of the situation, we find that the circumstance involved one Jr. High Schooler trying to posture and Bully another. In your circumstance, superficial scratches with the nails worked, which is good.

However, 2 high school kids quarelling is far different then 2 adults fighting to really hurt each other, or someone trying to hurt or kill another. I think you will agree with me at least on that much.

If someone is trying to really hurt or kill you, I maintain that superficial attacks like "scratching" are not the options you should be employing. This is especially true if you are a woman trying to fend off a larger and stronger male. Superficial wounds will likely only piss off an aggressive attacker more so then prevent them from hurting you. If you are able to scratch at their face, then what you should be doing is gauging your fingers or thumbs through their eye sockets, or ripping their ears off, or striking with as much force as you can. Every second counts, and every second should be utilized to create the trauma necessary to stop the attacker so you can escape. No time should be wasted on tactics that create only superficial damage, as wasting time could get you killed.

Now, I am not discrediting your experience, as every experience is a valuable learning tool. I appreciate your honesty so we could discuss the details of the matter.

Side note: that was funny to read about your older brother. I know what your talking about, as I WAS the older brother. Nobody messed with my 2 little brothers when they were in school! :uhyeah:

Paul

I do agree yes, that between adults it may not be as dibilitating <sic> as say between two kids. Yet, during the jr. high fight; I wasn't going for his eyes or other vitals on his face either, I just wanted to get the hell away from him because I knew (instinctively??) if he got started on me I'd be hurting ... bad.
If I'm ever in that situation again (hopefully never ) I would definitely use what-ever means necessary to hurt my opponent as much as possible to end the fight as quickly as possible. If that means digging what nails I may or may not have into vitals then by all means .. hell yeah!

I like what Tess said about giving them a possible staph infection on top of whatever hurt you inflict. Keep 'em hurting long afterwards. Hopefully (again) it'll make 'em think twice.

Yeah older brothers are cool ... sometimes. heh While mine stuck up for me at school, he beat the crap out of me whenever we got into it at home... so it balanced out. :lol:

 

[Gin-Gin]

A couple more thoughts... This is an excellent point. In my experience (and I'm sure quite a few of you can relate) I don't know how many times I've been scratched, scraped, bruised, gouged, etc. in class and, due to addreneline, didn't notice until either after class, or until someone said "hey dude, you're bleeding." A lot of times, you just don't feel it, and that's just in class.

Yes, but your classmates aren't trying to hurt you; on the street is a different situation/environment. As MJS said, "they, just like all of our tools in SD, have their place and time. Its a matter of knowing what the correct place and time is."

I would definitely use whatever means necessary to hurt my opponent as much as possible to end the fight as quickly as possible. If that means digging what nails I may or may not have into vitals then by all means .. hell yeah! I like what Tess said about giving them a possible staph infection on top of whatever hurt you inflict. Keep 'em hurting long afterwards. Hopefully (again) it'll make 'em think twice.

That's what I'm talking about!

 

[still learning]

Hello, This is just another weapon that can be use. Long or short it can still hurt you. Can be effective against the eyes. No ones likes to get scar by nails. Ever got pinch by someone with long nails? Ouch!
Real fights has no rules, use what you got. ......Aloha

 

[JAMJTX]

Anything that works!
Finger nails, especially in the eyes, can inflict some pain.
This type of pain is not severe and will only really be a distraction but it will give you a chance to either get away or get in another shot. Nails in the eyes is another story.

Also, scratching will make sure you get some of your attackers DNA which can be used as evidence if needed.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Something I thought of while reading this...

How many of us have nails long enough to really gouge/rake anyway? I would venture to guess that most of you (I know I do) keep them short to avoid accidental injuries in the studio.
something else to consider, with long nails it's kinda hard to make a proper fist. It's not too uncommon for a woman to start at the studio and in the course of training I'll notice that they're having problems punching, a lot of times it's the fact that they can't make a good fist w/o their nails digging in and/or breaking.

just some random thoughts...

I do. *after all, I'm a tiger*

I have had long nails since I began MA over nine years ago and they have not hindered my training. In fact, you should realize that having long (or longer) nails is an asset to an extent in kenpo. With all the eye rakes, gouges, eye fans and claws we employ in our techs, it doesn't matter if *one* has long(er) nails.

Tulisan,
I think you haven't understood what MJ was describing upthread. When we teach our women's self defense classes, the students are women who are not martial artists. We are teaching them ways of defending themselves to enable them to feel that they CAN fight back and that they can get away to safety or get help by using their natural weapons. It takes a while for women to adjust to hurting anyone. We're nurturers by birth.

However, I agree with you in that *one* should not rely solely upon scratching in a fight. kt

 

[Zepp]

As FearlessFreep has already noted, long nails tend to get in the way of making a tight fist. If you train to fight with open-handed strikes, relying on palm strikes, knifehands, etc., then keeping your nails long might be more practical. If you do a lot of grappling work in your training, then I imagine having long nails will probably piss off your training partners.

 

[Raewyn]

I do. *after all, I'm a tiger*

I have had long nails since I began MA over nine years ago and they have not hindered my training. In fact, you should realize that having long (or longer) nails is an asset to an extent in kenpo. With all the eye rakes, gouges, eye fans and claws we employ in our techs, it doesn't matter if *one* has long(er) nails.

However, I agree with you in that *one* should not rely solely upon scratching in a fight. kt

Hey, this post probably belongs to the LLR but how do you stop your nails from bending....... say backwards. I went to push someone away one time and my thumbnail (quite long at the time) actually bent back halfway down the base of my nail...........man what a killer that was. I also have a tendency of scratching myself. Also how do you manage to close your fist??

 

[Cruentus]

Tulisan,
I think you haven't understood what MJ was describing upthread. When we teach our women's self defense classes, the students are women who are not martial artists. We are teaching them ways of defending themselves to enable them to feel that they CAN fight back and that they can get away to safety or get help by using their natural weapons. It takes a while for women to adjust to hurting anyone. We're nurturers by birth.

For the record, I don't just teach "martial arts" stuff. I teach stuff that works in self-defense. Beyond my private training group, I am also on staff with a larger self-defense training company here in Michigan where we teach self-defense to many different target groups. We have specific courses for women. We have accredited college courses for self-defense as well. The end of these classes involves scenario training where the instuctors dress up in FIST padded suits and the students practice what they have learned in as realistic of a way that I have seen available today.

That said, I know what works in self-defense, and I will say it again: tactics that rely on "pain compliance" or superficial damage are not reliable against an attacker who is really intent on hurting you. Period. I will also say again that If you're using your FINGERS to jam your fingers far into the attackers eyesockets, and you happened to have nails that multiply the force, then great. If your trying to superficially scratch your attacker, your wasting valuable time and energy when you need to be creating more trauma to stop and provide an escape. Who wins the fight is who brings the most, first; and every second wasted increases the danger to the defender.

Now, if it is a semantics thing, and people are thinking "eye gauge" as I describe when they say "use your nails," then fine. I would suggest using a different explaination, though, as someone could mistake what you are trying to say and be thinking "kitty scratches" when that is not what you mean. But at least we probably agree more then we disagree.

If it is not a semantics thing, then I am sorry, but I don't know what to tell you. I know what works and what doesn't, and I stand behind what I say.

I hope you don't take offense to my uncompromising attitude, but this is something I feel very strongly about. If we were just talking about "martial arts" then heck, we could theorize all day long about stuff that may or may not work. But if we are talking self-defense, it HAS to work. I would hate to see someone hurt or killed because of bad information - and there certianly is a lot of it out there.

Paul

 

[Tgace]

In a true "fight" you could have bones broken and never even know it until its over. Id never rely on "pain compliance" techniques in self defense situations. Those work in LEO situations where you have to "persuade" "maybe people" into doing what you want. Rarely of practical use in civilian SD.....

 

[Makalakumu]

For the record, I don't just teach "martial arts" stuff. I teach stuff that works in self-defense.

Why does there have to be a difference between the two? In your "art" it sounds like "martial arts stuff" and "self defense" are one in the same.

 

[DarrenJew]

Why does there have to be a difference between the two?

Every person has their own reasons to take Martial Arts. Some for “Self Defense”, some for competition, some just as for the sake of the Art itself.

In self defense, you are expecting some to attack you that is going to be stronger and more aggressive than you. You should consider using things like throwing dirt into the eyes of your assailant (Things, not normally covered in the art itself). Your objective is to get away… not necessarily to subdue. But after all is said and done your original Martial Arts techniques will be a combination of many things.

For Competition, depends on the type of competition. But any people that compete will mix several different Art forms to try to give them selves an edge. Often the people will just pick what the feel is useful and discard what does not seem to work for them. Though some competitions may be purely one style that excludes other types of martial arts. Over all the aim is to win, getting away is not an option.

If you’re a purist, then you take the art to perpetuate just the art in itself, without mixing other forms of fighting to preserve its identity. (Note you may take multiple styles of Martial Arts and still preserve each art in their original form.)

 

[Gin-Gin]

Hey, this post probably belongs to the LLR but how do you stop your nails from bending....... say backwards. I went to push someone away one time and my thumbnail (quite long at the time) actually bent back halfway down the base of my nail...........man what a killer that was. I also have a tendency of scratching myself. Also how do you manage to close your fist??

Hi Raisin,
I'll send you a PM on this.

Gin-Gin

 

[Makalakumu]

Why does there have to be a difference between the two?

Every person has their own reasons to take Martial Arts. Some for “Self Defense”, some for competition, some just as for the sake of the Art itself.

In self defense, you are expecting some to attack you that is going to be stronger and more aggressive than you. You should consider using things like throwing dirt into the eyes of your assailant (Things, not normally covered in the art itself). Your objective is to get away… not necessarily to subdue. But after all is said and done your original Martial Arts techniques will be a combination of many things.

For Competition, depends on the type of competition. But any people that compete will mix several different Art forms to try to give them selves an edge. Often the people will just pick what the feel is useful and discard what does not seem to work for them. Though some competitions may be purely one style that excludes other types of martial arts. Over all the aim is to win, getting away is not an option.

If you’re a purist, then you take the art to perpetuate just the art in itself, without mixing other forms of fighting to preserve its identity. (Note you may take multiple styles of Martial Arts and still preserve each art in their original form.)

The beauty of art is that it can take many forms. If one wants to express themselves martially from a purely self defense perspective they are not any less of a martial artist in my opinion. Within the martial arts community there are people who see Art one way and think that it can't be another way. I disagree with that sentiment whenever I see it.