US won't accept Falklander's rights to self determination

[K-man]

Wink's as good as a nudge to a blind man. Know what I mean?

As for the rest, I'm with ballen. America has its own problems. This one is your problem... until you choose to ask us for specific aid. If, and when, you ask for aid, we will find out what America's REAL position on the subject is. I suspect we would help you, given our history of mutual aid upon request.

Steve ... How could you? We both joined in 2008, between us we have put up about 9,000 posts (you many more than me ). I don't think we have any major differences of opinion. Now you say the Falklands are MY problem. I'll let you in to a secret. I'll stick up for my Pommy mates against just about anyone, but .... if anyone calls me a f¥{#|%€ Pom ...... I'll go berserk! :tantrum: You have just produced possibly the worst insult an Aussie could face. To be called a Pom! I'm gob smacked! I really feel I should neg rep you! In fact, I know it's against forum rules but, I'll just settle for a duel. Pistols at 20 paces at dawn, by the lake. BE THERE!! :flammad:

:armed:

 

[arnisador]

It's not a colony, at least please get that right! It's a self determining country all of it's own

Oh please.

those posters who think we own the Falklands, yeah you know who you are.

Me, for example. Cloak it how you want--but that's the story here.

 

[Unreal Combat]

It's not a colony, at least please get that right! It's a self determining country all of it's own.

Officially, currently, via the EU it is a British Overseas Territory. The original term of which was Crown Colony.

 

[ballen0351]

It's not a colony, at least please get that right! It's a self determining country all of it's own, it's no more a colony of ours than America is.

I didn't say it was a colony I said I wouldn't care if you had 100 colonies its none of our business. Your a sovereign nation and are free to do as you please and have or not have as many colonies as you wish in my opinion.

My point was in case you missed it the first time is that those who post on here and yes it was aimed at the specific posters who keep saying the UK should get rid of it's colonies, that here's somewhere that wants total independence so where are those posters now who were whining at the UK? why aren't those posters saying, this is good, this is what the world needs instead of well look America is planning to help the Argentinians because they've been promised a big slice of the pie if they do.

Who said we should side with Arg? I said we need to butt out unless the UK asks for help. Which you shouldn't need help to fight the Arg army.

Why when we get attacked because you think we 'own' the Falklands is that ok but we can't defend the Islanders choices?

I have not seen anyone say you can't defend them

Oh yes I understand this is an American site and you will take offence at anything you think is remotely a criticism, even when it's not, of America but it's fine to post up endless articles about how bad our gun laws are, how we kill babies and how we are so so violent without guns.

All of which has nothing to do with this topic

I guess cheaper fuel is worth for you is worth being the Islanders being dragged off their Islands. No it's not aimed at America or Americans but those posters who think we own the Falklands, yeah you know who you are.

Who said you own the Falklands and who cares if you do or don't?

 

[Sukerkin]

Gently, my friends, gently.

The site exists for discourse and that can sometimes, by it's very nature, get heated; but things flow much better if we keep our cool and debate the matters in question rather than get terse with each other.

 

[Steve]

Steve ... How could you? We both joined in 2008, between us we have put up about 9,000 posts (you many more than me ). I don't think we have any major differences of opinion. Now you say the Falklands are MY problem. I'll let you in to a secret. I'll stick up for my Pommy mates against just about anyone, but .... if anyone calls me a f¥{#|%€ Pom ...... I'll go berserk! :tantrum: You have just produced possibly the worst insult an Aussie could face. To be called a Pom! I'm gob smacked! I really feel I should neg rep you! In fact, I know it's against forum rules but, I'll just settle for a duel. Pistols at 20 paces at dawn, by the lake. BE THERE!! :flammad:

:armed:

Well, then. This could be fun.

 

[Sukerkin]

How a Falkander sees matters:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21695398

 

[ballen0351]

How a Falkander sees matters:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21695398

So they are not voting for independence they are voting to stay British.

 

[Steve]

How a Falkander sees matters:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21695398

So, if they consider themselves to be British (as is said many times in the article) ... but they're not a colony... I'm confused. Please help.

I don't think that people in the Northern Mariana Islands or Puerto Rico consider themselves to be "American." Nor do I think that citizens of the various territories of the USA, including American Samoa or Guam, consider themselves to be "American." So, from my American perspective, that the Falklanders would refer to themselves as "British" suggests a much closer bond than is indicated in this thread.

 

[Sukerkin]

It is perhaps a little convoluted a concept to wrap your head around if you haven't grown up in post-imperial Britain viz that a country can be both independent and an Overseas Territory and yet consider themselves British all at the same time. The distinctions come from a divergence between what a countries people feel and how the legal definitions of the countries status read. It's a little bit like the fact that I am both English and British simultaneously.

I've lifted this more or less wholesale from Wikipedia but it gels with what I understand the case to be:

The British Nationality (Falkland Islands) Act 1983 (1983 c. 6) was an Act of Parliament passed by the Parliament of the United Kingdom on 28 March 1983. The purpose of the Act was to grant British citizenship to residents of the Falkland Islands, a British Dependent Territory in the South Atlantic.


Under the British Nationality Act 1981, a resident of the Falkland Islands was classed as a British Dependent Territories citizen unless he or she also had a connection with the United Kingdom (UK) itself (such as through having a UK-born parent or grandparent). British Dependent Territories citizens were restricted in their right to enter and stay in the UK. The new Act conferred full British citizenship on the residents of the Falkland Islands, giving them similar status to that of citizens in Gibraltar. The 1983 Act had retrospective effect from 1 January 1983, the date on which the 1981 Act had come into effect.


The 1983 Act was passed mainly in response to the Falklands War, which was fought between the United Kingdom and Argentina over the sovereignty of the islands. The United Kingdom maintained that it would stand by the principle of self-determination by clearing the way for the Falkland Islanders to decide their own status. It had been argued that the British Nationality Act 1981 had indicated British reluctance to hold the islands, as the residents were not legally full British citizens. So, after the war ended in victory for the British, the 1983 Act was passed to clarify the United Kingdom's commitment to the islands.


The Act has been superseded by the British Overseas Territories Act 2002, which granted full British citizenship to all British overseas territories, including the Falkland Islands.

If people are interested enough to do it, here is a link that that Act for your reading pleasure :

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/8/contents

 

[James Kovacich]

It's not a colony, at least please get that right! It's a self determining country all of it's own, it's no more a colony of ours than America is.

That is stretching it. The Fauklands are a UK commonwealth and UK dependant. We are not.



Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Steve]

It is perhaps a little convoluted a concept to wrap your head around if you haven't grown up in post-imperial Britain viz that a country can be both independent and an Overseas Territory and yet consider themselves British all at the same time.

Thanks very much for the detailed response, Suk.

So, in the context of this thread, can you and other members from the UK begin to understand how the average American can be forgiven for not seeing this as an "independence" issue, as we are accused of being in the initial thread? The point of this thread was to somehow chastise America for failing to support the UK position in this situation. I think that the American position is very reasonable, particularly considering the context that has been brought to light in this thread.

Tez started the thread as a finger wag toward America, and my belief is that it's more a testament of personal bias than of any actual, objective wrong-doing on the part of the USA (either our politicians OR our citizenry, in this case)

 

[Steve]

That is stretching it. The Fauklands are a UK commonwealth and UK dependant. We are not.

Exactly. The closest equivalence in the USA would be Puerto Rico and the Northern Mariana Islands, our only two commonwealth states, with Puerto Rico being much more closely linked than NMI.

 

[Sukerkin]

You are welcome, Steve.

I do think that the position taken by the American governments foreign policy machine is not one that I would have hoped to see but it is one that I expected to see.

It would be nice for America to lend her influence as the presently pre-eminent First World nation to encourage Argentina to 'behave' before things threaten to come to a military head but, despite all the joint efforts over the decades where we have lent credibility to some rather shaky endeavours, I can understand why she doesn't chose to press things in our favour right now. As with the Suez Crisis, America PLC has it's own interests to serve and global real politik is a game that takes no prisoners and where debts and favours are soon set to one side in such circumstances.

 

[Steve]

You are welcome, Steve.

I do think that the position taken by the American governments foreign policy machine is not one that I would have hoped to see but it is one that I expected to see.

It would be nice for America to lend her influence as the presently pre-eminent First World nation to encourage Argentina to 'behave' before things threaten to come to a military head but, despite all the joint efforts over the decades where we have lent credibility to some rather shaky endeavours, I can understand why she does chose to press things in our favour right now. As with the Suez Crisis, America PLC has it's own interests to serve and global real politik is a game that takes no prisoners and where debts and favours are soon set to one side in such circumstances.

As has been stated by others in this thread, there is no reason to believe that the US will fail to support our ally should push come to shove. I think that if it comes down to it, and the UK asks for help, we will help.

 

[Sukerkin]

Quite so and I do think that there would be some annoyed friends here at MT if it came to a military confrontation and America didn't help at least a little (intelligence is a valuable commodity in war and I should have given that more weight in an earlier post).

What I would prefer is a little political pressure now to avoid shooting later but I do understand why the States is walking a 'neutral' line - it's not her fault that Argentina's leadership will possibly take that as a sign they can go further with their sabre rattling.

 

[ballen0351]

Quite so and I do think that there would be some annoyed friends here at MT if it came to a military confrontation and America didn't help at least a little (intelligence is a valuable commodity in war and I should have given that more weight in an earlier post).

What I would prefer is a little political pressure now to avoid shooting later but I do understand why the States is walking a 'neutral' line - it's not her fault that Argentina's leadership will possibly take that as a sign they can go further with their sabre rattling.

My question is has the UK even asked for our opinion? Or for the US to try and influence the situation? I don't know since this does not even make a blip on the news here.

 

[pgsmith]

PG Smith, the chances are I will be there wherever there's the military, so yeah it was a bit more than just rhetoric.

Sorry Tez, didn't mean it to be personal. That's one of the reasons that I got out of the military. The uses to which it was being put no longer lined up with what we were being told we were about. It's also part of why the U.S. employs so many mercenaries, because the military would balk at what was asked of it.

Hope you don't have to end up pulling an Iraq in Syria.

 

[K-man]

It's back on the agenda. This article originated in the New York Times.

Falklanders put British tie to the test

Land Rovers and aircraft are being readied to carry ballots from eight islands as the Falkland Islanders vote on their status as a self-governing overseas territory of Britain.


The islands' government called a referendum for March 10 and 11 to reinforce its stance that the 2563 inhabitants want to remain British in the face of increasing claims from Argentina, which says the islands were wrongly taken from it in the 19th century and whose forces were expelled from the archipelago after invading in 1982.


''I hope the referendum sends a very clear message to the world that the Falkland Islanders wish to remain as an overseas territory of the UK with the right to determine their own future,'' said Roger Edwards, a member of the islands' Legislative Assembly. ''People are very hacked off with the attitude of Argentina, with its belligerence and economic blockade of the islands.''


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/falklan...to-the-test-20130310-2fu1n.html#ixzz2N9gZV1Jw

Seems some in the US are paying attention. :asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I have just 1 question.

When Argentina attacks again, how will Britain provide air support for the defenders given their reported lack of an air craft carrier?