US won't accept Falklander's rights to self determination

[Tez3]

Post #34 "but I have no doubt Obama would back door you and supply arms right the enemy."

Which implied Argentina was the enemy.

But that was not your post.

I read it as meaning America would supply us and our enemy not America's.

 

[ballen0351]

Argintina isn't our enemy.

If they go to war with the UK they are our enemy in my book. No other country has stood by the US more then the UK.

 

[ballen0351]

I read it as meaning America would supply us and our enemy not America's.

Yes that's how I ment it but see my above post in my opinion a war with the UK they should become the US enemy as well but that won't happen

 

[Big Don]

No offence taken!

Your new Foreign Secretary has just visited us and has reiterated the American stand on the Falklands, he still wants the UK and the Argentine to 'talk' over it instead of allowing the Falkland Islanders to decide for themselves what they want.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21569993

Please don't judge us based on that ***, that he lost in 2004 ought to tell you what the majority think of him.
We just don't have a dog in this fight. Given how many fights we have dogs in, and how much sh t we take for everydamnthing we do, give us a break will you?

 

[Carol]

The UK repeatedly stood with us and our troops when they didn't have a dog in the fight. Not the time to give the cold shoulder to our closest ally, IMO.

The Republicans voted overwhelmingly for Kerry to get him out of his lifelong seat. They got what they wanted, unfortunately the price is him as our Secretary of State for the next 4 years.

 

[Big Don]

Republicans voted for Kerry because elected republicans lack the testicular fortitude to actually fight.

 

[arnisador]

Aye, a sad state of affairs laid open for all to see on the international politics playing field. We couldn't get any help the last time the Argentinians got belligerent and that was during the Maggie and Ronnie 'love years' - what chance have we got of the American government lending a hand these days with an administration in power that does not care for us?

I wouldn't say it's a case of not caring--I'd say it's a case of seeing things very differently in this case. It's the sentiment of the Monroe Doctrine, in part--the U.K. is doing it here, where we had to break free from them. It just feels different. But it also comes off as simple colonialism.

 

[Carol]

But the UK isn't doing it here. Nowhere close. Its well over 10,000 kilometers between NYC and the Faulklands -- roughly double the distance between NYC and London.

 

[K-man]

I wouldn't say it's a case of not caring--I'd say it's a case of seeing things very differently in this case. It's the sentiment of the Monroe Doctrine, in part--the U.K. is doing it here, where we had to break free from them. It just feels different. But it also comes off as simple colonialism.

Not sure that this is totally accurate. I was not familiar with this doctrine so went searching.

From Wiki ...

The Monroe Doctrine was a policy of the United States introduced on December 2, 1823. It stated that further efforts by European nations to colonize land or interfere with states in North or South America would be viewed as acts of aggression, requiring U.S. intervention. The Doctrine noted that the United States would neither interfere with existing European colonies nor meddle in the internal concerns of European countries. The Doctrine was issued at a time when nearly all Latin American colonies of Spain and Portugal had achieved independence from the Spanish Empire (except Cuba and Puerto Rico) and the Portuguese Empire. The United States, working in agreement with Britain, wanted to guarantee no European power would move in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine

It seems Britain actually provided naval support for this policy.

Where the problem seems to originate ....

1790: Nootka Convention. Britain conceded Spanish sovereignty over all Spain's traditional territories in the Americas. Whether or not the islands were included is disputed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_history_of_the_Falkland_Islands

So what was the Nootka Convention?

The first Nootka Convention plays a role in the disputed sovereignty of the Falkland Islands between the United Kingdom and Argentina. Article VI provided that neither party would form new establishments on any of the islands adjacent to the east and west coasts of South America then occupied by Spain. Both retained the right to land and erect temporary structures on the coasts and islands for fishery-related purposes. However, there was an additional secret article which stipulated that Article VI shall remain in force only so long as no establishment shall have been formed by the subjects of any other power on the coasts in question. This secret article had the same force as if it were inserted in the convention. The Nootka Convention's applicability to the Falklands dispute is controversial and complicated. The United Provinces of the River Plate was not a party to the convention. Therefore it is defined in the convention as 'other power' and the occupation of the settlement (at Port Louis) by subjects of any other power negated Article VI and allowed Great Britain to re-assert prior sovereignty and form new settlements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootka_Convention

There it is, clear as mud. :asian:

 

[Tez3]

Please don't judge us based on that ***, that he lost in 2004 ought to tell you what the majority think of him.
We just don't have a dog in this fight. Given how many fights we have dogs in, and how much sh t we take for everydamnthing we do, give us a break will you?

The trouble is you do seem to have a dog in the fight, it's Argentina. Neutral is fine and it's understandable. It's not support for the UK we'd like it's acceptance that the Falkland Islanders have the right to decide their own future just as you did. If you put the chances of Argentina sharing oil and resources with you if they get the Falklands before the rights of the people who actually live in the Islands, it would be not only tremendously unfair it would be a travesty. It's the rights of the Islanders that we want your Foreign Secretary to respect, not the UK but the Islanders.

 

[pgsmith]

The trouble is you do seem to have a dog in the fight, it's Argentina. Neutral is fine and it's understandable. It's not support for the UK we'd like it's acceptance that the Falkland Islanders have the right to decide their own future just as you did. If you put the chances of Argentina sharing oil and resources with you if they get the Falklands before the rights of the people who actually live in the Islands, it would be not only tremendously unfair it would be a travesty. It's the rights of the Islanders that we want your Foreign Secretary to respect, not the UK but the Islanders.

You keep acting as if these are real people you're talking about. These are politicians. If the Argentine government has told them that their companies will get preferential treatment regarding oil drilling and exploration (which seems likely in my opinion, given our government's response) then they'll push for it because it puts money and power in their pockets. Also, as secretary of state, Kerry says what the administration tells him to say. He doesn't get to make his own decisions. Fairness and respect have absolutely nothing to do with politics.

 

[Tez3]

You keep acting as if these are real people you're talking about. These are politicians. If the Argentine government has told them that their companies will get preferential treatment regarding oil drilling and exploration (which seems likely in my opinion, given our government's response) then they'll push for it because it puts money and power in their pockets. Also, as secretary of state, Kerry says what the administration tells him to say. He doesn't get to make his own decisions. Fairness and respect have absolutely nothing to do with politics.

Maybe, but you the Americans put these politicians in power, they didn't turn up out of the blue and start ruling things.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Tez, let me put it bluntly.

Of course our government doesn't accept the will of the Falklanders. It doesn't accept OUR will, why would someone elses will matter?
Unless you're a lobbyist, in which case they will be happy to dance to your funding.

The US Government, the best money can buy.

 

[James Kovacich]

Maybe, but you the Americans put these politicians in power, they didn't turn up out of the blue and start ruling things.

I think your posts "overall" don't reflect Americans in a very bright light.

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[Tez3]

I think your posts "overall" don't reflect Americans in a very bright light.

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Not sure how you work that out, Americans are posting some quite nasty stuff about their fellows. You posted up as if the politicians were nothing to do with you so I pointed out, rightly you know, that you elected them, well, you did!

I'm actually surprised and a little appalled by the thoughts of some American posters on their fellow countrymen here, I think you need to be looking at them rather than me, I'm always willing to think the best of people.

 

[James Kovacich]

Not sure how you work that out, Americans are posting some quite nasty stuff about their fellows. You posted up as if the politicians were nothing to do with you so I pointed out, rightly you know, that you elected them, well, you did!

I'm actually surprised and a little appalled by the thoughts of some American posters on their fellow countrymen here, I think you need to be looking at them rather than me, I'm always willing to think the best of people.

I'm not trying to be mean. If you think that. Please forgive me. I wasn't talking only about this thread. I was referring that you talk about us quite often.

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[Tez3]

I'm not trying to be mean. If you think that. Please forgive me. I wasn't talking only about this thread. I was referring that you talk about us quite often.

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It's a bit hard not to talk about you considering some of the subjects we cover on here! Nothing I've ever said is as bad as some of things you have said about yourselves. In return I've had some quite shall we say 'interesting' comments about the UK to contend with, one sticks in mind particularly where we were accused of killing premature babies. We've had our gun laws, our health service, our police and our service people ripped to pieces on here. I've been personally attacked so I'm actually quite polite. I'd look to the views of America that are presented by Americans on here, after if a foreigner slags your country off you can shrug it off but when it's citizens do it well, that's serious.


to contend with, one sticks in mind particularly where we were accused of killing premature babies

 

[ballen0351]

The trouble is you do seem to have a dog in the fight, it's Argentina. Neutral is fine and it's understandable. It's not support for the UK we'd like it's acceptance that the Falkland Islanders have the right to decide their own future just as you did. If you put the chances of Argentina sharing oil and resources with you if they get the Falklands before the rights of the people who actually live in the Islands, it would be not only tremendously unfair it would be a travesty. It's the rights of the Islanders that we want your Foreign Secretary to respect, not the UK but the Islanders.

How is the US stopping the islanders from being independent?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not sure how you work that out, Americans are posting some quite nasty stuff about their fellows. You posted up as if the politicians were nothing to do with you so I pointed out, rightly you know, that you elected them, well, you did!

I'm actually surprised and a little appalled by the thoughts of some American posters on their fellow countrymen here, I think you need to be looking at them rather than me, I'm always willing to think the best of people.

ever hear of or understand the electoral college?

And add to that in the last presidential election only 58% of we the American's voted... and not all of those voted for the same guy

We have an alleged multi-party system...any one can be president.... well that is if you can live up to the rules the Republican and Democrats came up with after Perot… he scared the hell out of them…he may be a bit crazy…but he scared them real good.... so they changed the rules to make it incredibly hard for another party to get close to the white house.

As for all other political offices, it is easier to get into office for another party but the majority are still republicans and democrats. After that the whole thing gets rather complicated and somewhat unbelievable for people who live here and next to impossible for those who don’t to believe. I work to close to these guys, I’d love to change that, but I can’t just yet….but suffice to say the reality is…it is not likely what you have been taught in another country since the reality is that it is not what we who live here have been taught either. There is a post I did a while back about telling people what they voted for…. You may want to find it and read it…or you may not care at all….

And that when it comes down to voting you end up voting for the lesser of two evils...or at least you hope you are.

Additionally there is a joke, which is rather true: How do you know when a politician is lying? He's talking.

Beyond that all you need to know is what Plato said....Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber

And now you just starting to understand the American political system

You want to blame all American's for this...go for it...you're wrong.... but you appear to be ok with that so...have at us... one more person blaming us for all the problems in the world won't make much difference...lord knows no one is ever responsible for their own actions or history as long as the USA is around to blame

 

[Tez3]

How is the US stopping the islanders from being independent?

They aren't...yet but how will they vote in the UN when the Islanders wish for independence is put to the vote?