US Draft

[loki09789]

Not at the cost of causing the same anguish.

Then I guess you don't intend on defending yourself or anyone else with your martial training because you will be inflicting the same anguish on someone else when you do....

 

[OULobo]

It is only a cliche when the significance of it is lost on the listener....

Those who died and their survivors is a direct result of a system that was funded, supported and condoned by someone(s). As I have already said, I would like to think that as those of us still living would see the honor in trying to eliminate the structures that made such an attack possible eliminated.

I think it is a little ironic that you say that with you signature line saying,

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."
J. R. R. Tolkien (1892 - 1973), The Lord Of the Rings, Book Four, Chapter One

 

[Tgace]

Is attacking a terrorist camp done "in the name of justice" or as a means of taking down a terrorist organization? That quote is from TLOTR...lots of fighting in that book huh?

 

[OULobo]

Then I guess you don't intend on defending yourself or anyone else with your martial training because you will be inflicting the same anguish on someone else when you do....

Self defense is selfish proactive violence. It is to stop myself from dying, when I am still alive, not to take vengance on other for their actions killing others. The differance is the immediacy and the victim, now and me.

 

[loki09789]

I think it is a little ironic that you say that with you signature line saying,

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."
J. R. R. Tolkien (1892 - 1973), The Lord Of the Rings, Book Four, Chapter One

I am neither eager nor am I the one making the decision to deal out death in the name of justice. Taking that quote back into context, it was Gandalf's respond to Frodo when Frodo is critical of Bilbo because he showed Gollum mercy instead of outright killing him when he had the chance.

I am not eager about this, but I do think it is just to focus on disabling a system that would willingly kill non combative women, children and men.

Iraq, as another story, needed to be held accoutable for its non compliance with the treaty agreements....

Not eager, but not going to get stepped on or watch a cancer grow again in front of my eyes.

 

[loki09789]

Self defense is selfish proactive violence. It is to stop myself from dying, when I am still alive, not to take vengance on other for their actions killing others. The differance is the immediacy and the victim, now and me.

increase the scale and say that the identifiable being "you" are defending is a nation called "USA" (usually referred to on this scale as a singular entity) and you have the same thing happening. Military objectives/politics is about objectives not vengeance.

 

[Disco]

There is one point of contention that we are overlooking. This is addressed to both pro and con. It's not just 9/11. There were many incidents prior to 9/11. The WTC was hit in 91 I believe. The navy ship that was attacked was prior to 9/11. The embassy attack that killed all those marines was prior to 9/11. There are more but the point is made. Is war a wonderful thing? Hell no. War is a stupid waste of people and resources. But war has been in man's history since the written word was invented. What's happening in the middle east is nothing new, it's been going on since the 40's. Yes since the creation of the jewish homeland. Regardless of who started what and when and where, we are up to our eyeballs in a nasty, winner take all fight. Sure Bush and company are going to make there blood money on the lives of our young, but the die is cast (no pun intended). We can use any pretext we feel that will reinforce our individual opinions, but that will not change the mess were in. Whatever your personal beliefs may be, rest assured that the foe we are now against only cares about their warped version of their beliefs. They have migrated thruout the entire globe and are bent on our distruction.

I personally think that we screwed up by going into Iraq. We should have done it the first time when everybody was with us, but that still would not eliminate the overall threat posed by these people. We are allies with who they hate the most, so wheather we like it or not, we are the target.

 

[loki09789]

There is one point of contention that we are overlooking. This is addressed to both pro and con. It's not just 9/11. There were many incidents prior to 9/11. The WTC was hit in 91 I believe. The navy ship that was attacked was prior to 9/11. The embassy attack that killed all those marines was prior to 9/11. There are more but the point is made. Is war a wonderful thing? Hell no. War is a stupid waste of people and resources. But war has been in man's history since the written word was invented. What's happening in the middle east is nothing new, it's been going on since the 40's. Yes since the creation of the jewish homeland. Regardless of who started what and when and where, we are up to our eyeballs in a nasty, winner take all fight. Sure Bush and company are going to make there blood money on the lives of our young, but the die is cast (no pun intended). We can use any pretext we feel that will reinforce our individual opinions, but that will not change the mess were in. Whatever your personal beliefs may be, rest assured that the foe we are now against only cares about their warped version of their beliefs. They have migrated thruout the entire globe and are bent on our distruction.

I personally think that we screwed up by going into Iraq. We should have done it the first time when everybody was with us, but that still would not eliminate the overall threat posed by these people. We are allies with who they hate the most, so wheather we like it or not, we are the target.

I have mentioned the multiple WTC attacks before, but the media tends to promote short term memory use only

 

[rmcrobertson]

"Sure Bush and company are going to make there blood money on the lives of our young, but the die is cast (no pun intended)."

This is the argument in FAVOR?

By the way, as long as we're listing horrors, we did sorta shoot down an Iranian airliner with well over 200 passengers a few years back. Apparently an Aegis cruiser's very expensive phased-array radar cannot distinguish a 747 in a landing pattern and an attacking MiG...

 

[OUMoose]

That is not the approach considering that we are in the process of, and always intended to, work out the transfer of sovereignity back to Iraq, we are helping to fund/build and safeguard schools that are being run by and for Afg culture/nation building along side the counter/anti-terror operations. If we are exposing the collaboration of nations/individuals with known terrorists and 'negotiating' with them to stop by threatening to refuse their business/won't offer them US business of support instead of bombing their country and all the innocent bystanders, how is that wrong? The same process is applied domestically with businesses that sell cig/alcohol to minors.

By victims, I also meant the survivors who are suffering as living victims of the attack. If it was a relative/loved one of mine, I would want to see action by my government to minimize the risk of someone else suffering the same anguish...

It's not wrong to want those people to stand on their own, perhaps with a little helping hand from us (build schools/give food and medical aid, etc). It's not wrong to remove a tyrannical dictator from power, who only existed to exert his power over the people. It's wrong to sit there with troops basically invading a country that has outwardly said it doesn't want us there anymore, with no good reason to stay. A "peacekeeping" force could be used, but make it a joint UN project, as opposed to a US/little UK project. "An eye for an eye leaves a blind world" keeps coming to mind, in that revenge is not the answer. You mentioned self-defense used as an analogy for this. That doesn't quite apply here, due to the scale and the situation. Allow me to illustrate:

1) Self-defense is proactive. You train for the possible altercation where you have to save the lives of you or loved ones. This situation is reactive. We invade a country that is (possibly) harboring people with the same ideology as the ones who committed a strike on our soil. They, in turn lash out at us again for the invasion, of which we strike back again, and they strike, and we do again, and they do, and we do, and... it becomes a vicious circle.

2) To use your analogy, I (USA) get punched in the eye by someone (Terror groups) on your lawn. So, I hit back, and knock the guy on his butt, showing him that he's not all that. End of fight. Or is it? So the guy wants to keep going. Your buddies that are with you (UK, China, Russia, France, Germany, etc) all grab an arm and try to hold you back, as they think there's a better way, but you're too headstrong and break loose, continuing the fight. Now you're on your own, going to that guys house, in the midst of his friends, and starting something. Who's the bad guy now?

 

[OUMoose]

By the way, as long as we're listing horrors, we did sorta shoot down an Iranian airliner with well over 200 passengers a few years back. Apparently an Aegis cruiser's very expensive phased-array radar cannot distinguish a 747 in a landing pattern and an attacking MiG...

Good point. Someone string up Bill Gates please, since all those run on Windows NT from what I've heard.

 

[Tgace]

The guy plants a bomb in my house and kills my family and says hes going to get the rest of my friend and relatives.....Im hunting him to the ends of the earth and you better not let him sleep in your house.

 

[loki09789]

It's not wrong to want those people to stand on their own, perhaps with a little helping hand from us (build schools/give food and medical aid, etc). It's not wrong to remove a tyrannical dictator from power, who only existed to exert his power over the people. It's wrong to sit there with troops basically invading a country that has outwardly said it doesn't want us there anymore, with no good reason to stay. A "peacekeeping" force could be used, but make it a joint UN project, as opposed to a US/little UK project. "An eye for an eye leaves a blind world" keeps coming to mind, in that revenge is not the answer. You mentioned self-defense used as an analogy for this. That doesn't quite apply here, due to the scale and the situation. Allow me to illustrate:

1) Self-defense is proactive. You train for the possible altercation where you have to save the lives of you or loved ones. This situation is reactive. We invade a country that is (possibly) harboring people with the same ideology as the ones who committed a strike on our soil. They, in turn lash out at us again for the invasion, of which we strike back again, and they strike, and we do again, and they do, and we do, and... it becomes a vicious circle.

2) To use your analogy, I (USA) get punched in the eye by someone (Terror groups) on your lawn. So, I hit back, and knock the guy on his butt, showing him that he's not all that. End of fight. Or is it? So the guy wants to keep going. Your buddies that are with you (UK, China, Russia, France, Germany, etc) all grab an arm and try to hold you back, as they think there's a better way, but you're too headstrong and break loose, continuing the fight. Now you're on your own, going to that guys house, in the midst of his friends, and starting something. Who's the bad guy now?

Who are you claiming doesn't want us there. Religious/militia leaders who will profit from an environment of chaos or the average citizen who just wants stability so they can send their children to school and live according to their values....

Bosnia was the same way, some said they wanted us out but the average citizens were happy that they didn't have to worry about the upheaval.

 

[OUMoose]

Who are you claiming doesn't want us there. Religious/militia leaders who will profit from an environment of chaos or the average citizen who just wants stability so they can send their children to school and live according to their values....

Bosnia was the same way, some said they wanted us out but the average citizens were happy that they didn't have to worry about the upheaval.

I think it's the average citizen who just wants stability. Unfortuantely, in that part of the world, stability is a very limited and precious resource. If we weren't there stirring up the the anti-americans, some other leader would come along, and they would have their own rebellion, etc etc. Are we the ultimate cause of the situation? No. Are we doing anything to help it? Not really, and we're most likely making it worse.

The guy plants a bomb in my house and kills my family and says hes going to get the rest of my friend and relatives.....Im hunting him to the ends of the earth and you better not let him sleep in your house.

... Or what, you're going to bomb my house too? Then I'll find people to bomb you, and their friends will bomb you, and you'll come back and bomb us, and we'll find more friends to bomb you...

How many lives do we have to throw into the machine to get the gears to stop grinding and the operators to think about what they're doing? (that goes for both sides, not just ours).

 

[Tgace]

... Or what, you're going to bomb my house too? Then I'll find people to bomb you, and their friends will bomb you, and you'll come back and bomb us, and we'll find more friends to bomb you...

How many lives do we have to throw into the machine to get the gears to stop grinding and the operators to think about what they're doing? (that goes for both sides, not just ours).

OK...Ill just crack a beer and wait for the explosions.

 

[loki09789]

I think it's the average citizen who just wants stability. Unfortuantely, in that part of the world, stability is a very limited and precious resource. If we weren't there stirring up the the anti-americans, some other leader would come along, and they would have their own rebellion, etc etc. Are we the ultimate cause of the situation? No. Are we doing anything to help it? Not really, and we're most likely making it worse.



... Or what, you're going to bomb my house too? Then I'll find people to bomb you, and their friends will bomb you, and you'll come back and bomb us, and we'll find more friends to bomb you...

How many lives do we have to throw into the machine to get the gears to stop grinding and the operators to think about what they're doing? (that goes for both sides, not just ours).

Think all you want but in Bosnia, I spoke directly with citizens and the majority said they appreciated the presence. My old unit just came back from Iraq and a few of the guys I have had the chance to hear from have said the same thing about their time there. Don't let the sound bytes of news stories that support the theme of a particular article fool you into thinking that it is the majority. The squeeky wheel gets the grease and the contraversial group gets the camera lights...

Asking a person from Iraq/Bosnia 10 years from now is going to be the real test of whether it was for the best or not. Asking people 'how is the move going' in the middle of it will illicit a different response than after all the boxes are unpacked and the dust has settled. Stress can really skew perspectives. Things are in an upheaval. Even the good commentary is not to be totally believed because tomorrow, the same person might be 'down with Bush'ing all over because soldiers were doing a sweep through his neighborhood and he is upset at the disruption....

 

[OULobo]

There is one point of contention that we are overlooking. This is addressed to both pro and con. It's not just 9/11. There were many incidents prior to 9/11. The WTC was hit in 91 I believe. The navy ship that was attacked was prior to 9/11. The embassy attack that killed all those marines was prior to 9/11. There are more but the point is made. Is war a wonderful thing? Hell no. War is a stupid waste of people and resources. But war has been in man's history since the written word was invented. What's happening in the middle east is nothing new, it's been going on since the 40's. Yes since the creation of the jewish homeland. Regardless of who started what and when and where, we are up to our eyeballs in a nasty, winner take all fight. Sure Bush and company are going to make there blood money on the lives of our young, but the die is cast (no pun intended). We can use any pretext we feel that will reinforce our individual opinions, but that will not change the mess were in. Whatever your personal beliefs may be, rest assured that the foe we are now against only cares about their warped version of their beliefs. They have migrated thruout the entire globe and are bent on our distruction.

I personally think that we screwed up by going into Iraq. We should have done it the first time when everybody was with us, but that still would not eliminate the overall threat posed by these people. We are allies with who they hate the most, so wheather we like it or not, we are the target.

Now that is a good post. I agree almost totally. The only contention is that I don't think any war is "winner take all". The intricacy of war and foreign relations are too complicated to believe that if we "win", we will have no problems of this kind anymore. A long grinding process culminated in this mess and it will take a long grinding process to stop it, if it is stoppable. No war, which is often veiwed as a relatively quick solution, will solve this issue. It will take good foreign relations, education, understanding, sympathy and sacrifice.

 

[OULobo]

The guy plants a bomb in my house and kills my family and says hes going to get the rest of my friend and relatives.....Im hunting him to the ends of the earth and you better not let him sleep in your house.

I would say "Welcome, my son, to the machine" (God I love Pink Floyd), but it sounds like you are helping to build it.

 

[Tgace]

Like I said before...OK, Ill just crack a beer and wait for the explosions. What do you recommend?

 

[OULobo]

Like I said before...OK, Ill just crack a beer and wait for the explosions.

I'd rather pull a "strangelove" and ride the first missile home.