US Draft

[Disco]

We cannot wage war on an idea..................

Now that's ludicrous. Every war ever fought was because of an idea.

You think that it's only small, scattered and unidentifiable people that ascribe to it. I assume that you have not seen the hords of young people, clapping, laughing and just having a grand time, as Americans are being dragged thru the street and their bodies being defiled while the Humvee's burn in the background. Not just in Iraq, but in Afghanistan, Somolia, and even Kuwait. The CBS news show 20/20 did interviews in the middle east with college age people. Everyone either leaned or was aggressively condeming of the U.S. and it's lifestyle and politics.

"I'll never agree that this country is in a war against terrorism"...........

I could care less if you agree or not. Just because you decide to call it something else or just totally disavow that it exists, does not mean that it dosen't exist. You said yourself that those that attacked the WTC were terrorists. If you think that education, examination and compromise, will solve the problem, then I do feel sorry for you. You may mean well, but your living in a different realm than the rest of us. Everything that you stated has been in effect for many years and look at the results. We are dealing with people who have opposing religious beliefs, i.e. your war based on an idea. You are entitled to your opinion, for that is but one of the freedom's this country offers. I actually agree with your stand on not going to war for some political big wigs pocket book, but if you think there is no correlation between Pearl Harbor and the WTC, then anything I say falls on deaf ears. We stand opposed, but that is our right, our heritage as Americans. We can agree to disagree. I stand up for and am willing to defend your right to be opposed to me. I just hope that you and other's that think along your same lines will be willing to stand for me.

 

[Tgace]

I wonder...If US Troops caught BinLaden, shot him and dragged him through the street tied to a HMMWV what would the reaction here be? If Terrorists did the same to say, the President, what would the reaction in the Mid East be?

 

[Nightingale]

waging war won't kill an idea. you may kill some of the idea's supporters, but by doing so, you turn them into martyrs. You can wage war against a nation, but when you try to wage war against an idea, it never completely works. The best way to fight against an idea is to educate rather than eradicate.

 

[Makalakumu]

You think that it's only small, scattered and unidentifiable people that ascribe to it. I assume that you have not seen the hords of young people, clapping, laughing and just having a grand time, as Americans are being dragged thru the street and their bodies being defiled while the Humvee's burn in the background. Not just in Iraq, but in Afghanistan, Somolia, and even Kuwait. The CBS news show 20/20 did interviews in the middle east with college age people. Everyone either leaned or was aggressively condeming of the U.S. and it's lifestyle and politics.

The people you see on those reports are not the entirety of the middle east. Perhaps you should consider why the corporate media would like you to believe that.

 

[OULobo]

waging war won't kill an idea. you may kill some of the idea's supporters, but by doing so, you turn them into martyrs. You can wage war against a nation, but when you try to wage war against an idea, it never completely works. The best way to fight against an idea is to educate rather than eradicate.

My thoughts exactly.

You think that it's only small, scattered and unidentifiable people that ascribe to it. I assume that you have not seen the hords of young people, clapping, laughing and just having a grand time, as Americans are being dragged thru the street and their bodies being defiled while the Humvee's burn in the background. Not just in Iraq, but in Afghanistan, Somolia, and even Kuwait.

Right those are the hundreds that the cameramen want to print because it sells papers and whips up the extremists, meanwhile standing behind the camera huddled in their houses waiting to be bombed, shelled or arrested are the thousands and tens of thousands that don't ascribe to extremist and terroristic beliefs. Then there are those who fight because they just don't want us on their soil, not because they hate us or our "way of life".

Everything that you stated has been in effect for many years and look at the results.

Yes, many years of relative peace and prosparity(sp).

We are dealing with people who have opposing religious beliefs, i.e. your war based on an idea. You are entitled to your opinion, for that is but one of the freedom's this country offers. I actually agree with your stand on not going to war for some political big wigs pocket book, but if you think there is no correlation between Pearl Harbor and the WTC, then anything I say falls on deaf ears. We stand opposed, but that is our right, our heritage as Americans. We can agree to disagree. I stand up for and am willing to defend your right to be opposed to me. I just hope that you and other's that think along your same lines will be willing to stand for me

The reason I don't agree is because the Pearl harbor was an attack by a sovereign nation for the purpose of nationalistic conquest. The attack was something that allowed the US pop. to gel against an identifyable nation with a pop. whose vast majority agreed in it's government. The 9/11 attacks were acts of a group of religious extremists with no nation or government, that acted without the support of the pop. of the area they resided in or the support of the people who practice the religion that they claim to practice. In standing for my right to speak my mind, I am in gist supporting your right to speak. I don't claim that your notions are invalid or that your right to speak be denied, only that until the majority of the nation agrees with you I won't be silenced or sent away at anyone's whim. I'll fight if you give me a good reason (that we have) and a valid justifiable target (this we are missing).

 

[Disco]

The 9/11 attacks were acts of a group of religious extremists with no nation or government, that acted without the support of the pop. of the area they resided in or the support of the people who practice the religion that they claim to practice.

You will also notice that those same so called people who reside and show no active support and who practice the religon, actually do support the agenda. By doing nothing to either physically stop or offer intelligence to those that could stop the killing. The old saying, "For evil to succeed, good men must do nothing".

Originally Posted by Nightingale
waging war won't kill an idea. I'm sure the Jewish community from the holocaust travisty would be in total agreement......

 

[jeffbeish]

I got my draft notice after 9 weeks of Air Force basic training! My DI laughed and told me I still had three more weeks of boot camp and then the Army could have me. He was joking of course. While I do not like anyone to be forced into the military I do believe a few years of it does a world of good for young people. Like, it gets you away from mommy and daddy and makes an adult out of you in a hurry.

 

[Nightingale]

Waging war DIDN'T kill the idea of anti-semitism. Its still alive and well, unfortunately (KKK, among others). What's been slowly strangling anti-semitism is education, not war.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

What about opening the military up to those who are physically disabled? Someone in a wheelchair is perfectly capable of answering a telephone, doing virtually any kind of desk job, acting as a lawyer, a doctor, or a nurse. Taking on disabled people who want to serve would free able-bodied folks for other positions or locations. No conscription necessary.

What about the people who have asthma? I'm sure there are many positions that are not overly physically straining. There's got to be something they can do to support the military.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the assumption that, no matter what position you take in the military, be it on the front lines or behind a desk, you still have to pass Basic Training. Those in a wheelchair or with permanent respiratory problems couldn't even go through Basic to get to the desk job.

There's one reason I'm thankful for my own disability; no military service.

 

[Disco]

Waging war DIDN'T kill the idea of anti-semitism. Its still alive and well, unfortunately (KKK, among others). What's been slowly strangling anti-semitism is education, not war.

Education? What form of education? Were talking the like / dislike of a nationallity. So I guess we don't have to worry about the Palestine / Israel conflict and all the arab countries, cause were going to educate them into friendship.

Granted, the idea of anti-semitism is alive and well and still living worldwide. But the wholesale slaughter of a race of people was stopped. You decide which is more viable.

I wonder what the old timers (WWII/Korean) would say and think of this discussion.

 

[OULobo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the assumption that, no matter what position you take in the military, be it on the front lines or behind a desk, you still have to pass Basic Training. Those in a wheelchair or with permanent respiratory problems couldn't even go through Basic to get to the desk job.

There's one reason I'm thankful for my own disability; no military service.

My guess is that they would be put into a separate work force, acting like civilian contractors or civilian military employees.

I wonder what the old timers (WWII/Korean) would say and think of this discussion.

It depends on which one you ask.

Not all older vets are crusty scrappers, many if not most detest war or armed conflict for any reason, many believe that the horrors of war that they experienced and crimes against man that war forced them to commit are not worth any cause. The image of the salty cantankerous rough vet is one that many adopt because the vets that are very vocal and active, fit this stereotype. There are many many more vets that choose not to be vocal, either because they don't want to be recognized for their actions, aren't proud of what they did, don't want to remember or just don't think it's anybody else's business. I've found this humble silent majority is very much against any war.

 

[loki09789]

What about opening the military up to those who are physically disabled? Someone in a wheelchair is perfectly capable of answering a telephone, doing virtually any kind of desk job, acting as a lawyer, a doctor, or a nurse. Taking on disabled people who want to serve would free able-bodied folks for other positions or locations. No conscription necessary.

I was reading IMMEDIATE ACTION by Andy McNabb about his experiences in the British SAS and he described taking classes being taught by wounded/disabled SAS vets. I am not sure the exact logistics of it, but they were either contractors or actual ranked/serial numbered members of the British Army. Either way, I think it is beneficial all around. The military doesn't loose out on the experience and professionalism of these servicemen/women and the soldier still is a contributing member of the culture that they chose to be a part of, and made a huge sacrifice for in the process - has to be good for the psyche.

I don't know about enlisting handicap/disabled people into the military only because it would create a serious drain on the already criticized budget - which is the down side to the process of keeping disabled vets/servicemen in as well. Providing/Accomodating for a relatively small percentage/but large population of handicap people is expensive and would mean more money that isn't going to the development of force readiness. It also would mean some kind of limited duty/rank/pay system that would require special management (more money, complications to the already affectionately termed "puzzle palace" system of the Pentagon).

 

[OUMoose]

Waging war DIDN'T kill the idea of anti-semitism. Its still alive and well, unfortunately (KKK, among others). What's been slowly strangling anti-semitism is education, not war.

Education? What form of education? Were talking the like / dislike of a nationallity. So I guess we don't have to worry about the Palestine / Israel conflict and all the arab countries, cause were going to educate them into friendship.

Granted, the idea of anti-semitism is alive and well and still living worldwide. But the wholesale slaughter of a race of people was stopped. You decide which is more viable.

I wonder what the old timers (WWII/Korean) would say and think of this discussion.

(Notice: There is OPINION coming!!!)

We went to war in WWII because of an attack on our soil by the ally of a country the world didn't like much, due to the atrocities (BUZZWORD ALERT) that were being perpetrated. Fine. We went in, got the job done, and got the heck out. All the world was happy and life was good... for a while...

Korea/Viet nam. The world doesn't like us as much anymore. Calls us bullies and baby-killers. But, since we're the biggest and baddest dog on the block since the collapse of the eastern bloc countries, we take up the reigns for democracy and shove our proverbial foot in the door. We went in, got our butts kicked, and got out (more nam that korea, but you get the picture).

Fast forward to present day. Who are we after? Al-Queda? Al-Queda does NOT equal Iraq. It doesn't equal Syria, Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey, or any other country in the middle east. As someone so eloquently pointed out already, they are a bunch of religious zealots striking from the shadows through autonomous groups (you know, those cells (BUZZWORD ALERT) you hear about on CNN). Now our leader, in all of his infinite wisdom, decided to put a face on this terror, and make up crap that just flat out wasn't true to implicate him. Yes, he was doing bad stuff to his people, just like Hitler. Unlike Hitler, he was doing it to ALL his people, not just one group. Bad man. Very bad. However, he was NOT leading Al-Queda, because that group doesn't HAVE a leader!! So, lets talk about our position. We went in, de-throned this tyrant, and.... wait... we're still there? Why? Why didn't we GTFO like all the others wanted us to? Simple... $$$... The longer we stay in there, the longer we can build rights to "our" oil. Wait... aren't we looking for WMD (BUZZWORD ALERT)? What do you mean we can't find any?? Can't we at least plant some to make it LOOK like we found em?? No?! why?? because it's unethical?!!?

This "War on Terrorism" is dumb. As has been pointed out by many leading news sources (notice Fox and CNN do NOT count as leading news sources), There are more terrorist groups forming and being trained now than any other time. Why? Because we're still there. Because we're "fighting for democracy". Bull****.

I very much agree with Lobo in 2 of his points.
1) For every terrorist in Iraq that wants to kill our people for our beliefs and way of life, there's 20 that just want them to leave by any means necessary, huddling in their houses until some grunt comes along and shoves a gun in their face (our side or theirs, it doesn't matter).

2) Ask most Vets about war. They'll tell you some stories, I'm sure, but 9 out of 10 of them would say they'd never do it again. War is no place for kids, which most of them were when they were drafted. Sure, it'll "get you away from mommy and daddy and make you an adult quick". If you call mentally scarred from shell shock (that would be Post Traumatic Stress Disorder for those of the George Carlin era ), and possibly an amputee (IF you survive) an adult.

Now, after all that babbling, I guess this post comes down to one thing. Naming this war. All wars have x vs. y. For example, WWII was the Axis VS. Allies. I think this war would be "The brainwashed religious zealots VS. The brainwashed idealistic zealots"...

:flame: (Note: Opinion done. Please flame if necessary)...

 

[loki09789]

This "War on Terrorism" is dumb. As has been pointed out by many leading news sources (notice Fox and CNN do NOT count as leading news sources), There are more terrorist groups forming and being trained now than any other time. Why? Because we're still there. Because we're "fighting for democracy". Bull****.

I very much agree with Lobo in 2 of his points.
1) For every terrorist in Iraq that wants to kill our people for our beliefs and way of life, there's 20 that just want them to leave by any means necessary, huddling in their houses until some grunt comes along and shoves a gun in their face (our side or theirs, it doesn't matter).

2) Ask most Vets about war. They'll tell you some stories, I'm sure, but 9 out of 10 of them would say they'd never do it again. War is no place for kids, which most of them were when they were drafted. Sure, it'll "get you away from mommy and daddy and make you an adult quick". If you call mentally scarred from shell shock (that would be Post Traumatic Stress Disorder for those of the George Carlin era ), and possibly an amputee (IF you survive) an adult.

Tell that to the victims of 911. The 'war on terrorism' is not dumb. It is a campaign that is intended to work in coordination with these other nations that have at times looked the other way or out right negotiated with terror organizations. There has been a direct correlation shown between terrorism and drugs. Isn't it funny how the terrorists started taking more and more focued and direct action against the US after our "War on Drugs"? What exactly do you think we should be doing about Terrorism then? Nothing again? The criticism before was that the US had not established an effective intelligence/action plan to quell terror, now it is too much?

All the servicemen running around the hills in Afg are not the decisive part of the campaign. The intelligence they gather that helps nations put a strangle hold on the bank accounts, national/private support that they have been getting is the decisive blow. Exposing the locations/elimination of these terrorist training camps/programs that have existed in some of the middle eastern countries you have mentioned - so that sort of makes it a war on terror that includes action against (or at least criticism and exposure of) these nations is a decisive blow.

FOX news? You mean one of the younger news programs/networks that is trying to compete for a market niche with a borderline yellow journalistic approach?

War sucks. But, as martial artists, don't we all train and prepare because there are things worth fighting for?

 

[OUMoose]

I agree that those other nations should be accountable for the happenings inside their borders (i.e. training camps and drug trafficking). The problem is that we should not be sending troops in and just doing it ourselves. All that does is ruin other countries' opinion of the US, as we are now viewed as the terrorists. We've taken the "You listen to us or we'll come blow the living crap out of your country" approach. Doesn't that sound like what was done to us?

Tell that to the vicitims of 9/11? I can't, because they're just that. Victims of a terrible tragedy. What would their surviving relatives and loved ones say? I'm not sure. I can say that if one of my loved ones were there and perished, I'd want their memory to live on in dignity, not spun into some ethnocentric propaganda machine.

 

[OULobo]

Tell that to the victims of 911.

I risk offending a ton of people, but this needs to be said, that line is the most overused clique' currently heard. What I would tell the victims of 9/11 is that I am unbelievably sorry for their loss and I will lend aid in any way they need. I don't cry often and I cried that day. I am sorry some overzelous, brainwashed, nutjob got the idea that Islam was about violence and death, instead of enlightenment, clean living and peace. Moreover I'm sorry some overzelouse brainwashed nutjob is going use our government to try and take their children and grandchildren to a die in horrible way in an unwelcoming far away place to "defend" us against people and things that aren't even there.

Consequently its almost the same thing I would tell a survivor of the Holucaust, the Tibetan massaqures, the Hutu civil wars, ect. Retaliation and anger are a vicious cycle of death.

 

[loki09789]

I agree that those other nations should be accountable for the happenings inside their borders (i.e. training camps and drug trafficking). The problem is that we should not be sending troops in and just doing it ourselves. All that does is ruin other countries' opinion of the US, as we are now viewed as the terrorists. We've taken the "You listen to us or we'll come blow the living crap out of your country" approach. Doesn't that sound like what was done to us?

Tell that to the vicitims of 9/11? I can't, because they're just that. Victims of a terrible tragedy. What would their surviving relatives and loved ones say? I'm not sure. I can say that if one of my loved ones were there and perished, I'd want their memory to live on in dignity, not spun into some ethnocentric propaganda machine.

That is not the approach considering that we are in the process of, and always intended to, work out the transfer of sovereignity back to Iraq, we are helping to fund/build and safeguard schools that are being run by and for Afg culture/nation building along side the counter/anti-terror operations. If we are exposing the collaboration of nations/individuals with known terrorists and 'negotiating' with them to stop by threatening to refuse their business/won't offer them US business of support instead of bombing their country and all the innocent bystanders, how is that wrong? The same process is applied domestically with businesses that sell cig/alcohol to minors.

By victims, I also meant the survivors who are suffering as living victims of the attack. If it was a relative/loved one of mine, I would want to see action by my government to minimize the risk of someone else suffering the same anguish...

 

[Tgace]

The Tibetan approach worked well with the Chinese didnt it? Peace and Love win the day if you are willing to sacrifice a ton of lives and be treated like sheep. Reactionary violence isnt the way. Agreed. But military operations are a valid tool.

 

[OULobo]

By victims, I also meant the survivors who are suffering as living victims of the attack. If it was a relative/loved one of mine, I would want to see action by my government to minimize the risk of someone else suffering the same anguish...

Not at the cost of causing the same anguish.

 

[loki09789]

I risk offending a ton of people, but this needs to be said, that line is the most overused clique' currently heard. What I would tell the victims of 9/11 is that I am unbelievably sorry for their loss and I will lend aid in any way they need. .

It is only a cliche when the significance of it is lost on the listener....

Those who died and their survivors is a direct result of a system that was funded, supported and condoned by someone(s). As I have already said, I would like to think that as those of us still living would see the honor in trying to eliminate the structures that made such an attack possible eliminated.