Unsure of the art taught at my dojo

[Gerry Seymour]

well clearly not, but then my guitar playing has very little to do with music,,but a dissertation on introspective issues isnt about anything at all but writing,

assuming there are no wrong answers, and totally bizarre if there is a right answer. that requires you not to actually espressos your feeling accurately

and what gives them the right to require you to reveal your emotions to them ?

Sometimes it’s just about encouraging folks to think.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If I were a betting man, I'd wager that the vast majority of adults who get into martial arts fall into one of two categories. They either trained as a child and are getting back into it, or they enroll their child in class and are roped into training as a family thing.

I think you're probably right that most folks don't have any idea what they're looking for.

Most of the adults I’ve taught were either experienced martial artists (roughly the same as one of your groups), or just folks who’d been curious about MA for a long time and were just now getting around to it for various reasons. But I’m not at all certain that’s representative of the general population.

 

[drop bear]

Well, we know that they compete, and that it's very effective "on the street" and against any style... except for that one move that, if done correctly, no can defend.

Wait they do MMA?

 

[Steve]

Wait they do MMA?

No, they suck at grappling.

 

[Steve]

Most of the adults I’ve taught were either experienced martial artists (roughly the same as one of your groups), or just folks who’d been curious about MA for a long time and were just now getting around to it for various reasons. But I’m not at all certain that’s representative of the general population.

Start teaching kids, and then you can rope the parents into class, too. Offer a discounted family rate. Pretty much all of the kids will quit after a year or so, but some of the parents will stick around. And there are always more kids. The money is with the kids.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Start teaching kids, and then you can rope the parents into class, too. Offer a discounted family rate. Pretty much all of the kids will quit after a year or so, but some of the parents will stick around. And there are always more kids. The money is with the kids.

At my instructor’s school, we had a significant minority of adults that came in that way. Probably 10-15%. But it was a fairly small school, with more adults than kids.

 

[_Simon_]

well clearly not, but then my guitar playing has very little to do with music,,but a dissertation on introspective issues isnt about anything at all but writing,

assuming there are no wrong answers, and totally bizarre if there is a right answer. that requires you not to actually espressos your feeling accurately

and what gives them the right to require you to reveal your emotions to them ?

Well if we look into it, the act of strumming strings has nothing to do with music. At all. It's because the strings are all tightened to various levels to produce certain vibrations that allows certain notes to be played.

But then, music is more than just notes being played isn't it.. there's intention, story, emotion, reflection that makes songs.

And you think writing is about writing? Writing has nothing to do with writing! (unless we're talking stylistic calligraphy, which is not what I'm referring to)

It's okay if you don't like the writing components. But I can see value in getting the student to think and reflect on exactly what it is they're doing.

 

[drop bear]

No, they suck at grappling.

Nah. We have a drill for grappling. It is called BJJ.

 

[jobo]

Well if we look into it, the act of strumming strings has nothing to do with music. At all. It's because the strings are all tightened to various levels to produce certain vibrations that allows certain notes to be played.

But then, music is more than just notes being played isn't it.. there's intention, story, emotion, reflection that makes songs.

And you think writing is about writing? Writing has nothing to do with writing! (unless we're talking stylistic calligraphy, which is not what I'm referring to)

It's okay if you don't like the writing components. But I can see value in getting the student to think and reflect on exactly what it is they're doing.

i think your over analysing the guitar example, i was agreeing with Gerry that MA is not necessarily about fighting, there are physical and mental benefits to be had even if you never manage to be able to fight, much like my guitar example, if i want music il employ the services of a musician, the process has significant benefits to me, though i will never be in a position where i or anyone else would want to listen for enjoyment, which is really the defining point where sound becomes music

as to WRITING, that is the process of recording your thought or idea or information, it can be hand writing, but a type writer or word processing equipment still results in the written word and is therefore writing, but then scratching them ion the wall with a nail also counts

ive had debates over the years that the act of forming the idea to be recorded is part of the writing process, so you dont need any recording equipment to have sitting there staring into space( thinking)count as writing, but that probably a discussion for another day

 

[_Simon_]

i think your over analysing the guitar example, i was agreeing with Gerry that MA is not necessarily about fighting, there are physical and mental benefits to be had even if you never manage to be able to fight, much like my guitar example, if i want music il employ the services of a musician, the process has significant benefits to me, though i will never be in a position where i or anyone else would want to listen for enjoyment, which is really the defining point where sound becomes music

as to WRITING, that is the process of recording your thought or idea or information, it can be hand writing, but a type writer or word processing equipment still results in the written word and is therefore writing, but then scratching them ion the wall with a nail also counts

ive had debates over the years that the act of forming the idea to be recorded is part of the writing process, so you dont need any recording equipment to have sitting there staring into space( thinking)count as writing, but that probably a discussion for another day

Yeah for sure. I guess my point was that writing was not about the writing, but like you said, about recording or conveying an idea. Communication.

I've had many, many experiences in the dojo when the instructor would stop the class and ask, "what do we think this movement is for?" And countless times I've heard the response, "ahh.. well I've never really thought about it." And I have certainly done this too! From that point on I really made sure to reflect on things (and of course the instructor wouldn't just leave us hanging).

Whilst that's more about learning technical stuff, I think pointing students towards reflecting on and communicating the benefits they have gotten from it, or even their general understanding of the philosophy or approach of the style really helps the student gain more of an appreciation and deepens their own understanding of the art and ends up teaching them more.

And particularly if it's a much higher grade, it's nice to consider and look back on the whole journey that led to here

 

[jobo]

Yeah for sure. I guess my point was that writing was not about the writing, but like you said, about recording or conveying an idea. Communication.

I've had many, many experiences in the dojo when the instructor would stop the class and ask, "what do we think this movement is for?" And countless times I've heard the response, "ahh.. well I've never really thought about it." And I have certainly done this too! From that point on I really made sure to reflect on things (and of course the instructor wouldn't just leave us hanging).

Whilst that's more about learning technical stuff, I think pointing students towards reflecting on and communicating the benefits they have gotten from it, or even their general understanding of the philosophy or approach of the style really helps the student gain more of an appreciation and deepens their own understanding of the art and ends up teaching them more.

And particularly if it's a much higher grade, it's nice to consider and look back on the whole journey that led to here

but thats takes us back to the MA is special philosophy, if doing that is a positive benefit, what dont people who have been on a musical journey or a fitness journey or a learning to juggle chain saws journey do like wise

you can only conclude that either MA or everything and everybody else is wrong about its benefits

 

[_Simon_]

but thats takes us back to the MA is special philosophy, if doing that is a positive benefit, what dont people who have been on a musical journey or a fitness journey or a learning to juggle chain saws journey do like wise

you can only conclude that either MA or everything and everybody else is wrong about its benefits

I can't answer that for you. Although there plenty of testimonials written (especially with fitness journeys), maybe sorta similar perhaps?

Maybe it's specific to MA because it takes quite a commitment to reach those levels. Not to detract from any other skills, but it takes quite a bit of perseverance and commitment, so there's that.

Maybe it's just a MA thing. Doesn't make it 'special'. Just that that's what some of them do. Why don't they dump a bucket of Gatorade over the instructor's head when they win at a martial arts tournament, like has become a thing in some football circles?

Rising through the grades in piano we'd do an end of year concert, and that sort of communicated a similar thing. Showing how far we'd come, but moreso to ourselves than anybody else.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but thats takes us back to the MA is special philosophy, if doing that is a positive benefit, what dont people who have been on a musical journey or a fitness journey or a learning to juggle chain saws journey do like wise

you can only conclude that either MA or everything and everybody else is wrong about its benefits

The non-fighting benefits of MA can definitely be found elsewhere. I’ve known business coaches who took similar approaches (using business situations to learn larger lessons and develop thoughtfulness), and have seen some of the same in organized sports.

 

[Steve]

Nah. We have a drill for grappling. It is called BJJ.

That's actually how you know the difference between Cobra Kai and MMA. There's a school around here that actually changed their name from American Colleges of Karate to American Colleges of Mixed Martial Arts. While I believe they have had a few guys who have competed in local MMA events, they are not primarily an "MMA" gym. They are a school that mixes various styles.

i think your over analysing the guitar example, i was agreeing with Gerry that MA is not necessarily about fighting, there are physical and mental benefits to be had even if you never manage to be able to fight, much like my guitar example, if i want music il employ the services of a musician, the process has significant benefits to me, though i will never be in a position where i or anyone else would want to listen for enjoyment, which is really the defining point where sound becomes music

as to WRITING, that is the process of recording your thought or idea or information, it can be hand writing, but a type writer or word processing equipment still results in the written word and is therefore writing, but then scratching them ion the wall with a nail also counts

ive had debates over the years that the act of forming the idea to be recorded is part of the writing process, so you dont need any recording equipment to have sitting there staring into space( thinking)count as writing, but that probably a discussion for another day

I believe that there are a lot of benefits to learning to do pretty much anything. I try to learn to do something completely new at least every couple of years, whether it's cooking and baking, throwing pottery, carpentry, brewing beer, making soap, jiu jitsu, or whatever. You don't have to be great at something to benefit from the pursuit. However, the activity has to have some internal integrity. In other words, the less concrete, intangible benefits of learning to play a musical instrument are not realized if you're just mindlessly strumming strings. As @_Simon_ observed, the act of strumming strings isn't inherently musical.

 

[Steve]

The non-fighting benefits of MA can definitely be found elsewhere. I’ve known business coaches who took similar approaches (using business situations to learn larger lessons and develop thoughtfulness), and have seen some of the same in organized sports.

I actually think it's far more universal that you suggest, and would go further to say that the non-fighting benefits of MA have little to do with MA. Further, the intangible benefits (e.g., respect, character, self-discipline, self-esteem) are a by-product of applying oneself to developing skills in pretty much anything, from learning to play chess to getting your welding certifications.

 

[jobo]

The non-fighting benefits of MA can definitely be found elsewhere. I’ve known business coaches who took similar approaches (using business situations to learn larger lessons and develop thoughtfulness), and have seen some of the same in organized sports.

i was talking specifically about people not being asked to write an essay on how ''swimming made me feel( insert any pass time and award)before being given a life guards badge

 

[jobo]

That's actually how you know the difference between Cobra Kai and MMA. There's a school around here that actually changed their name from American Colleges of Karate to American Colleges of Mixed Martial Arts. While I believe they have had a few guys who have competed in local MMA events, they are not primarily an "MMA" gym. They are a school that mixes various styles.
I believe that there are a lot of benefits to learning to do pretty much anything. I try to learn to do something completely new at least every couple of years, whether it's cooking and baking, throwing pottery, carpentry, brewing beer, making soap, jiu jitsu, or whatever. You don't have to be great at something to benefit from the pursuit. However, the activity has to have some internal integrity. In other words, the less concrete, intangible benefits of learning to play a musical instrument are not realized if you're just mindlessly strumming strings. As @_Simon_ observed, the act of strumming strings isn't inherently musical.

strumming is the very essence of playing guitar and its not at all easy to do so musically. mindlessly strumming strings is the objective, that when your good, as long as you have to concentrate your poor

 

[Steve]

strumming is the very essence of playing guitar and its not at all easy to do so musically. mindlessly strumming strings is the objective, that when your good, as long as you have to concentrate your poor

I agree with this

 

[isshinryuronin]

I actually think it's far more universal that you suggest, and would go further to say that the non-fighting benefits of MA have little to do with MA. Further, the intangible benefits (e.g., respect, character, self-discipline, self-esteem) are a by-product of applying oneself to developing skills in pretty much anything, from learning to play chess to getting your welding certifications.

While devoting oneself to any pursuit will develop certain intangible benefits as byproducts, in TMA, these benefits are not collateral byproducts, but primary intentional goals. They are inherent in the "do" of karate-do. This is where TMA is different from most other pursuits. There are few activities capable of changing one's physical body, way of looking at the world, and way of looking at oneself, all at the same time, to the extent MA can.

To illustrate this uniqueness in another way: There are chat rooms for chess players, I'm sure, where they discuss strategy, tactics, history and so on. But do they discuss physical training, philosophy, character development? Probably not much. If welders have such a site, they may talk of hours worked, types of metal, equipment and other technical issues. But again, I doubt if philosophy, moral standards, humility, and outlook on life are regular subjects of discussion.

Is there any site out there where, in addition to technical matters specific to the activity, these other topics are discussed on a regular basis? By chance, there is. And it happens to be MA oriented! Now, if I could only find it........

 

[Steve]

While devoting oneself to any pursuit will develop certain intangible benefits as byproducts, in TMA, these benefits are not collateral byproducts, but primary intentional goals. They are inherent in the "do" of karate-do. This is where TMA is different from most other pursuits. There are few activities capable of changing one's physical body, way of looking at the world, and way of looking at oneself, all at the same time, to the extent MA can.

To illustrate this uniqueness in another way: There are chat rooms for chess players, I'm sure, where they discuss strategy, tactics, history and so on. But do they discuss physical training, philosophy, character development? Probably not much. If welders have such a site, they may talk of hours worked, types of metal, equipment and other technical issues. But again, I doubt if philosophy, moral standards, humility, and outlook on life are regular subjects of discussion.

Is there any site out there where, in addition to technical matters specific to the activity, these other topics are discussed on a regular basis? By chance, there is. And it happens to be MA oriented! Now, if I could only find it........

I hear you, and I agree with you that TMA is different and unique. We just simply disagree on the outcome. Well, honestly, it's not quite that clean.

On one hand, it's not as unique as you might think. A good coach or teacher, regardless of the activity, will speak to character often. On a good team, everyone speaks to these things often. They will encourage their students or players to practice hard, be diligent and mindful, not cut corners, and to do these things even when they aren't being watched. They are encouraged to be resilient. A good coach or teacher talks about these things overtly and also demonstrates these things through their actions. So, when you say that this is unique to TMA, I disagree. It's intrinsic to any good team and will be a big part of any good program.

When you say that these are elevated to primary, intentional goals in TMA, I agree here, too. However, I get that you see it as a pro, but I most definitely consider that a real problem. I don't think these things are well suited to be primary goals. In fact, as I said above, because they are intrinsic to any good team/program, they are inherently a byproduct of the diligent pursuit of something else, grounded in some other effort. Simply put, I don't think you can teach discipline in a vacuum any more than you can teach someone how to fight by talking about fighting. There has to be an anchor for the lessons that is practical and concrete.