Okay, things are still getting misunderstood here... most of the responses are over things I haven't said, implied, or mentioned... so I'm going to clarify again.
We aren't talking about a building though but a ritual and they are VERY different. A building with a big cross on it, a stature of the Buddha inside, ancestral totems, what ever. Rituals, traditions, they evolve and change, they absorb influences from other cultures and faiths, they even sometimes, in the view of society at large, lose the religious context and become a secular tradition in main stream societies.
No, in this sense, we were talking specifically about a building. I was responding to Steve's comment about going to a church being a religious concept (worship by going to a church... rather than "worship by going to church"... although that is largely the same thing), so yeah, I was addressing specifically the building itself. And yes, a church is a specifically religious building... as is a mosque... and a synagogue... a church is built on sanctified and consecrated ground... it is built to be place for centralised worship and observation of God and His teachings.
It's exactly the same with Japanese religions, of course... Shrines are centralised areas for Shinto observation.. Temples for Buddhism... and, then you have smaller forms of each. The rituals are then undertaken there as well... the location adding to the power and relevance of the rituals themselves. And, again, a church is a religious building... and, at it's heart, so is a dojo.
-We kiss under the mistletoe but it's origin regarding kissing goes back to Norse Mythology. Mistletoe was the only thing that could kill Baldur. Loki used it to do just that. in a "happier" version of the myth however the gods were able to resurrect Baldur from the dead. Overjoyed, Frigg then oddly declared mistletoe a symbol of love and vowed to plant a kiss on all those who passed beneath it. The people kissing under it today are not however practicing modern Odinism.
-We use the infinity symbol in modern mathematics, in some forms of Buddhism it means perfection and the union of male and female akin to Yin-Yang.
-The modern medical profession uses as one of it's symbols the Caduceus. They aren't worshipping Hermes.
None of that is relevant, or even similar to what I'm talking about.
If we look at bowing, as I said earlier, it predates all religions known today. It started, as far as we can tell, from servants/subjects/slaves showing obedience to the master... it then evolved into religious contexts and then evolved out side them. When it comes to society, nothing is static.
We're not talking about bowing, though. We're talking about a particular usage of bowing, as found in martial art dojo, that is, in reality, a Shinto ritual. Frankly, forget the idea of just thinking about bowing... bowing is just a part of the way the ritual is done... it's got nothing to do with how bowing developed, or anything else you're going on about...
Again, you're looking at things backwards, and missing the reality of the situation.
Sure you can say "in Karate specifically it had this origin" BUT if you are looking to the past you have to ask, if we wish to be logically consistent, how did the Shinto faith get that tradition, because nothing comes from nothing. Everything evolves and comes from something before. Perhaps just as important this means that the way things are is not going to stay the same, it will become something else. To draw an arbitrary line and say "well this is the origin of the tradition mere hundreds of years ago, but don't look any further into the past than that and do not look at how it may have evolved since that point of origin" misses one of the glorious things about being human.
Yeah, that's all completely missing the point. It's got nothing to do with where Shinto came from... nothing at all. The point is that Shinto is intrinsically part of Japanese martial arts (and, I'm amazed I have to repeat this again, but I'm not talking specifically about karate, okay?)... not where Shinto itself came from. That's a completely different story. Again, you're looking at entirely the wrong things, and in the wrong direction. It wasn't a matter of the martial arts existing, and Shinto being brought into it, but the other way around... Shinto existed, and martial arts sprung up around it...
I understand your point and agree with you. To clarify my thought, I think that it is possible to study a martial art and to partake in (at least some of) its religious rites out of respect without having to give up on one's own faith.
Yep, and that's been said by me all along. My point was that you could certainly do that, but if you did it by sticking your fingers in your ears, and burying your head in the sand, pretending it's not a religious act, is to deny the reality of the situation.
If your religion forbids you engaging in other religious practices, you should know that... and then, you can choose to ignore that part of your doctrine, that's up to you.
Of course, he was a very religious man himself and some exercises come directly from his faith (Furitama undo is a most striking example) but I do not think that practicing those exercises would mean converting to Omoto-kyo, even if they were entirely religious in nature. He had students who did not share his beliefs at all, even after decades of "Furitama".
There was not, nor has there been, any mention of converting to any other religion... and, it's important to recognise, from a Japanese perspective, there is no problem following the observations and ideas of multiple religions simultaneously...
Of course, I agree with what you said but you seem to have misunderstood my post. I have never said that it was a purely Christian way of life. I just stated that O'Sensei's philosophy shared common fundamental principles with Christianity and that practicing his martial art does not prevent one from sticking to one's belief system, as I said before:
"My point was that in his philosophy (Omoto-kyô sect) he followed principles that are in line with what Jesus taught his disciples. Actually, any human being who is caring and kind to others is following those same principles and even if they choose a different "way" I believe that they are heading to the same goal as I as a Christian. I consider them brothers, even though I can disagree with them about the dogma."
But again, that's just my way of seeing things.
No, I understood your post... my point was simply that the labelling of his behaviour as "very Christian" seems to put Christianity as a paragon of morality and correct behaviour... and, while it can certainly be seen that way by it's adherants, it's a little arrogant to present it as being above the actual heart and source of Ueshiba's behaviours (spiritual and otherwise).
Wow Chris ... Just ... wow.
Hmm... struck a chord?
First, I don't see that every Japanese art is following and totally infused with Shinto, nor that Shinto is in every Japanese art, specifically Karate. And despite how you might wish to modify your stance, or deny it, that is the way it comes across from you.
Well... yeah. The vast majority of arts are based in Shinto, at least in a number of aspects. But (again, not sure how many times I have to repeat this) I have not been talking about karate specifically... at all.
That said, no, they're not "following" Shinto, they have a reasonably large amount of Shinto thought, methodology, practice, and concepts within their structure. That is not the same thing.
You paint with a very broad brush. You imply that Shinto is willingly adhered to by all Japanese in all aspects of their daily life, and so in Japanese martial arts. You do not account for what my have become a part of the culture that no longer has any religious meaning to many if not most people. Does every Buddhist begin and end his worship with Shinto rituals? Do Christians happily include Shinto in their worship? I think not.
You're approaching this from a Western, Abrahamic standpoint...
Western religions tend towards exclusivity... to be involved in one means to be in exclusion of all others... you can't both believe that Jesus was a prophet of Islam, and believe that Jesus was the literal Son of God and the Messiah... while also believing that the Messiah has not yet come... they cancel each other out. This extends to differing interpretations of the same doctrine and texts. Japanese religions are different... there is no problem observing Shinto rituals in your home before starting out to work in the morning, then attending a Buddhist service for a wedding or funeral, or simply any occasion... while at the same time describing yourself as a Christian. So, you may think not... but, in a Japanese sense, yeah, very much so. No matter what you may think.
As a result, it's got nothing to do with people "willingly adhering" to Shinto... it's really just a part of daily life in Japan for most people (it's losing it's sway, but still present enough for it to not be anything unusual in a dojo... even enough that it doesn't need to be explained to any Japanese coming across it in a dojo setting or outside).
You still haven't answered my question. That is OK, since we both know what I was setting you up for was that Shinto didn't invent the bow. You now say the bow isn't Shinto, but is used within Shinto. That isn't how you said it before.
Actually, I did answer it, in that your questions premise was false in the first place... and I was pointing that out.
As said, the question isn't anything about where the custom of bowing came from... it's what is or is not a Shinto ritual... which is allowing us to identify what parts of a martial arts class are actually religious rituals, even if not identified as such. It is about specific actions that do involve bows... specific bows, done in a specific way, with a particular direction... which makes it Shinto. It's not that they're bowing, it's how the bow is done.
OK, we can take that out. When you bow on entering a dojo, you are not practicing Shinto
Actually, yes, you absolutely are.
The bow is done towards the kamiza/shinzen/shomen... and is, quite literally, a way of announcing yourself to the kami in the dojo itself... asking permission to enter, asking them to look over your training there. The bow on the way out is thanking them, and taking your leave of them again. This is why you bow even if you're the only one in the dojo... it is Shinto.
The above makes no sense. At least in my experience, going to a martial arts school is nothing like going to church. Even if you are saying "dojo" is a Buddhist word, a dojo and a church are not the same. I don't go to a martial arts school to be in church, and I don't go to church to study my martial art. But how did Buddhism get into this? I thought is was all supposed to be about Shintoism.
I get that you don't see it... in the West, we tend not to see a dojo as a religious building... but, at it's heart, it is one. Martial arts were centred around religious centres, buildings, shrines and temples... they originated based in votive offerings and focused on protective deities... and no, it's not about Shintoism... it's about religious aspects found within martial arts... which does include Buddhism, as well as Shintoism, and others.
I'm sorry, I don't understand. What is it that "...it actually is..."
What I mean is that this is not my opinion, or my interpretation. I am simply stating the fact that the Shinto rituals are Shinto... and that is what they actually are. Nothing to do with how I "apparently do (things)", it's about what the reality is in the first place.
Well, you do tend to segment every post. I do it sometimes myself as sometimes it seems to add clarity, or just ease of answering. But as I pointed out in my answers, I don't always find what you say to make sense to me.
Sure.... and, whenever you find yourself disagreeing, by all means, question me, present your side, and I'll either counter or change my view. And when you simply don't follow what I'm saying, ask, and I'll clarify as best I can.
If Christmas can be a Christian,not Christian fuzzy mash of concepts all at the same time.
Then bowing in a dojo can be Shinto,non Shinto or even Christian as well.
Religious riturals are not as set in stone as people would like us to believe. Regardless as to their origin.
Oh look Shinto is a fuzzy mash of stuff as well. What a suprise.
BBC - Religions - Shinto: Shinto history
Religious rituals can, and do, change... however, performing a Shinto ritual, including bowing, is performing a Shinto ritual... bowing, by itself, is not one... but a Shinto ritual often does involve bowing. Conflating the two is where many seem to be going wrong here.
You must get really tired from the burden of always having to correct everything little thing everyone says. No idea where you find the energy.
Okay, you can leave off the passive-aggressive stance when corrected, and given better information, yeah? You don't want to learn, that's fine... but if I feel I can help give a better understanding of something, I'm going to attempt it. It's up to you how you receive it.
"For the record," sorry I misspelled mokuso. Being an imperfect typist, I make mistakes in spelling every now and again, yeah? (As you like to say)
I only brought it up as you mis-spelled it the same way twice... which would normally indicate that it wasn't a mistake in spelling as much as a lack of knowledge of the word itself. And, as the word shows the meaning, and the meaning was very much what you were describing, I felt that showing that was pertinent.
As for the name Seido, I'm quite clear where the name comes from. I do study the style, have read all books from the founder, trained in his class a few times, and have met and conversed with him several times, yeah? Quite sure I know the history behind it, "so you know..."
So... you're aware of such influences? Is there a reason you're arguing, then?
Call it whatever you want, but I look at the opening and closing of class as a sign of respect - respect for the organization as a whole, respect for the founder, respect for my teacher, and respect for everyone in attendance that I'm training alongside. The word Rei literally means, respect, yeah? Doesn't literally mean bow, yeah? Doesn't mean worship, yeah? But you know this. But again, call it what you will, it's all about intent. I have my intent, you have yours, and everyone has there's.
Yes, the term "rei" can literally mean "bow"... or "a ritual"... "ceremony"... "thanks"... "gratitude"... "a gift"... "a presentation"... "manners"... "etiquette"... and, in combinations, can take on aspects of worship, devotion, praise, adoration, even of prostrating yourself... Japanese is a highly contextual language... trying to lock away a single definition just doesn't work here. This is a good example, as everything you say it doesn't literally mean, it actually does.
For reference, see here:
#kanji 礼 - Jisho.org
There's a way to communicate without being a know-it-all, arrogant SOB. I'm sure I haven't said it yet, and it's overdue... Thank you for your crusade of correcting all that is wrong in this world. You take so much time out of your busy day to correct all us ill informed underlings. There's a special place waiting for you in heaven when your time comes.*
Mate, believe me when I tell you that I correct such a small amount of what I see here that this hardly qualifies as a crusade... but thanks for your apparent disdain of learning from others. That helps in discussions.
*If you believe in that sort of thing. Nothing wrong with it you do or don't.
Not even slightly, for the record.
I hate to say this but especially since some forms of Japanese MA's bow with an origin in the Confucian (read philosophical, not religious) influence that started with the Warrior Class/Samurai almost 1000 years ago. Still others bow with an origin in Zen Buddhism. It is a documented fact that there is no single reason for bowing in Japanese Martial Arts. I was just trying to dodge being this blunt.
Being blunt is okay... it just might help more if you were right.
Confucianism played a big part in the formulation of the social structure of early Japan, most notably in the formation of Heian courts, which (in their way) were instrumental in the formulation of what would later be known as the samurai class... additionally, both Shinto and Buddhism were large influences on pretty much all of Japanese life... particularly once Buddhism was introduced to Japan in around the mid 6th Century, which started the formalisation of Shinto... however, while both used bowing as part of their expressions of their religious rites and rituals (more so in Shinto than Buddhism, but obviously present in both), the whole idea of "there are bows, therefore it is x-religion" is not the point I have made at any stage. my point has been specifically about the particular bowing methods used.
For interests sake, though, can you identify any Classical Japanese arts that have their bowing originating in Zen Buddhism...?
Oh, and it's not a documented fact... it can't be, in the same way that you can't document a lack. It is a supposition you're making. That's quite a different thing. More importantly, it's a supposition you're making based on a false premise (that this is about bowing in and of itself), so that further removes your idea from being relevant to the discussion here.
How so...He says specifically "Shinto" in origin when there are arts in Japan that draw their roots not from Shinto but explicitly from Buddhist or from the Samurai code of Conduct that has A LOT of Confucian thought.
Please list these arts who draw their roots from Buddhism rather than Shinto, and please identify what specifically is from Buddhism, as well as citing the areas which would commonly be Shinto. Next, please define the "Samurai code of conduct" that you're referring to...
I totally get that Chris knows a lot, but one can't ignore the arts whose origins are in Buddhist teachings of the melange, founded in Confucian thought, that was the codified code of conduct of the warrior class and then spread to society at large roughly 800 years ago. I was, tbh, shocked at the fact he ignored these other factors but tried to be "round about" for the sake of being polite in my critique.
There are very good reasons he ignored much of that... one being that they aren't overly relevant to the points I was making, and another being that much of what you're talking about is romanticised and inaccurate.
Heck it gets even murkier because the Shinto faith in its evolution absorbed things from both Buddhism and Confucianism as they spread throughout Japan so it gets even murkier.
Yeah.... again, not overly relevant.
These are actual historical facts anyone can research if they bother to do so. One of the things I actually love about Japanese History is that it is so unlike the West. Imagine Christian Europe, 1000 years ago. What would have happened if suddenly a Religion came from elsewhere to contest Christianity? In Japan however they let Buddhism do its thing. Shinto also did it's thing but also took some stuff from Buddhism. Same with the Confucian Philosophy when it came along. Rather than fight the knew the powers that be figured out ways to make the new suit their purposes.
Well, for one thing, there was another religion that came along to contest Christianity... it was Christianity... for the record... but, again, this is not really relevant to the points at all. It doesn't matter where Shinto adopted anything from, or where Buddhism came from, if it's in the martial arts, it's in the martial arts.
If he hadn't specifically named a single influence I wouldnt have an issue, but he ignored the fact that Japan, and it's Martial Arts, have multiple religious/philosophical influences and as such there is no one size fits all answer.
Again, waiting for anything that contradicts me, other than "well, there were other things as well"...
A reason for bowing in Japanese martial arts is it is part of Japanese culture. If you're studying a "traditional" Japanese martial art, part of that tradition may include practicing parts of the culture. This may also include Japanese terminology, removing shoes, etc.
Well, yes. But we're not talking about just bowing... we're talking about specific bowing rituals and ceremonies, which are, one more time, specifically Shinto rituals.
I like the bowing. It makes it more formal for me. If I were to eliminate anything cultural from the art, it would be removing the shoes. Far more benefits to wearing them than not - being barefoot during self defense isn't nearly as common as when wearing shoes, reducing foot disease transmission, reducing stress on the feet, and so on.
You think its' about self defence...? Hmm...
Sorta yes sorta no. There are Lineages that simply use the cultural norm. That is when I speak of the arts that follow what was codified for the warrior class as this eventually spread throughout society as a whole.
What was codified for the warrior class? Seriously, I'm interested to what you think here.
However there are specific Lineages that are very steeped in Shinto and the bowing was, to their mind related to the Shinto faith. There are also arts/lineages that were/are very steeped in Zen Buddhism and the bowing finds its purpose in that faith.
We are talking about a common class opening (and closing) ceremony in Japanese martial arts, which is specifically, overtly, directly, and only a Shinto ritual. That's it. You're conflating completely different ideas, and, at the end of the day, simply arguing that yes, there is a great deal of religious influence on Japanese martial arts... so I'm not sure what point you think you're trying to make.
My issue with what Chris said had nothing to do with denying the fact that some Japanese Martial Arts do have the bowing with an origin in Shintoism. This is indeed true. My issue was that he made it sound like this is global in scope (in terms of Japanese Martial Arts) and this is not true.
Actually, it pretty much is. Find me a Japanese art that doesn't bow on entering a class towards the kamiza, and doesn't feature a bow to it at the beginning and end of class, and you've potentially found an art that doesn't have a Shinto aspect to it. I wish you all the best in your search, by the way...
PS if I misinterpreted and Chris did not mean "all forms of Japanese Karate have Shinto root and no other" then I will say "my bad."
Yes, you have misinterpreted (a number of things)... I have repeatedly clarified that I have not, at any point, been discussing karate... nor have I meant or said that the arts themselves have all had Shinto roots (to the art)... many have, many have other religious forms influencing them as well (which I have also said from the beginning of my posting in this thread)... but I have been specifically discussing the example (singular) of the opening ritual of the class, which is specifically a Shinto ritual... that's it.
I don't think knowing anything about the spell is actually necessary to effectively use the technique. It's an interesting way to understand why it is taught that way, but there's no reason it has to be taught that particular way as the art evolves, unless that's the most effective approach to the technique. If it's actually the most effective set of movements, then it's not necessary to know that it's related to casting a spell.
So, one could learn effective use of that weapon, learning the techniques as they have evolved (or not evolved), without necessarily having any connection to the original religious context.
Sure, you can do the technique without knowing the religious aspects and meaning behind it... but the point I was making there wasn't that the technique was meaningless without it, it was to show just how much of the martial art is there specifically due to the religious influences. I will say, though, that the idea of the technique "evolving" away from the actual core base of the reason for the technique in the first place is where things start to lose their identity... which is the antithesis of training in them, to my mind.
This comes back to one of my earlier points. Is a building that was once home to a religious order (say, a small retail-front church) religious after that order moves on? Of course not. Even if it was originally built as a religious building, it does not remain so forever if it is no longer used for religious purposes. (Note: We may continue to refer to it using the original terms, like "the old monastery", but if it's now a restaurant, it's not a religious building.)
I think that can depend on the building itself (if it's built on consecrated ground, the ground remains consecrated unless it's removed, so...), but more to the point, the entire architecture of a (traditional) dojo (which doesn't have to be a specially built building, for the record) is based in religious meaning... it is, at it's heart, a religious building... and is designed for the practice of religious acts and rites... which is what martial arts are really about, in a real sense.
You're looking at things from one angle, and I think it's a frankly overly-narrow viewpoint. If I understand you correctly, anything that was ever influenced by Shintoism that shows up in a MA gives that MA a direct link to Shintoism. I disagree with that, almost entirely. It's a philosophical statement, and is open to a large amount of personal debate, so your stance of absolutism on this seems unsupportable.
I'm not sure how you justify saying that I'm only looking at things from one angle... mainly as I'm looking at it from the perspective of Shinto, Buddhism, Japanese society and culture, both current (modern) and classical, the origins of martial methods (ryu-ha) in Japan, Western thought patterns, Western religious doctrine, cultural differences, and more...
That said, no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the Shinto aspects in martial art classes are Shinto... that's it. A Shinto ritual is a Shinto ritual... I'm really not sure how much confusion that can generate...
Now, if I'm misreading that, you may simply be stating that there are Shinto influences from the culture.
Yes, you are misreading me. No, that's not exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that there are Shinto aspects and rituals in the arts. As well as aspects from other religious and cultural perspectives.
I'd not argue that for a moment. Just as any MA that originated in the Southern states of the US in the last 200 years would probably have a lot of influence from Christianity, because bits of Christianity have become cultural in the area.
Most likely, yeah.
That would not mean, however, that these hypothetical arts couldn't be separated from the religion without changing the art.
That, bluntly, is completely irrelevant. We're not talking about a completely hypothetical made up system from a completely different culture and a completely different perspective... we're talking about the Japanese arts themselves. It doesn't matter if other (hypothetical) arts can (hypothetically) be separated from their (hypothetical) religious influence... if the Japanese arts have it so intrinsically incorporated, it's not the same thing at all... and a very false equivalence.
The art is the physical principles (and sometimes the ethical/moral principles), and those can be taught, practiced, and performed in the complete absence of the religion (and even in the absence of understanding of it).
No, the art is expressed through physical manifestations (expressions) of the core philosophy, values, beliefs of the system itself... the techniques are the last and least of it.
Because the building I train in does not have the purpose of studying religious ways and methods. Entirely different situation.
Is it a dojo? Even if not designed as one (as in purposely built.... it may be just a hired hall, but if it's treated as a dojo, it is one), then it is a place set aside for the study and pursuit of the Way... and, in a Classical Japanese art sense, that does mean a religious understanding and undertaking.
