Oh boy...
Look, there's a lot to clarify and cover, so this'll take a fair bit... but I'll try to keep each response short... well, as short as I can, anyway. Anyone who sees their name might want to just skip through to those areas... as there'll be a lot of doubling up here.
Just as a basic preface, though... you're all thinking in terms of Western religion (well, maybe not Xue...), which means that you're looking at things with a rather inaccurate and incomplete grasp of the concepts... so I heartily recommend to keep that in mind.
Look, you can disagree all you want... but I haven't been discussing preferences, opinions, theories, or anything else... I've simply reported facts. Disagree if you want, but the reality is that I've simply told you what the reality is. What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not ignoring your points, your points are ignoring the reality.
Which is, pretty much, exactly what I'm saying.
And here is where the viewing through a Western religious lens comes into it... I have never, at any point, said anything about "worship". I have also never suggested that, by engaging in the ritual, or by attending a class, you are now a fully indoctrinated Shinto-ist... what I have said is that rituals themselves are a Shinto ritual (as well as quite a lot of other aspects being taken from Japanese religious concepts), and that, if your religion forbids you from participating in the rituals of other religions, you have to come to some understanding of that. You can ignore the religious aspects, and make peace with it that way... you can make it mean something else in your mind... you can refuse to participate (which can mean you are not part of that school/art)... or whatever. But that's up to the individual.
With the comment on the religious influences, honestly, it's so ingrained in (particularly Japanese classical arts) so many aspects of the art that, yes, if you were to remove all religious aspects from a Japanese martial art, you'd have very little left... you wouldn't have your dojo to train in, for one thing... you wouldn't have the architecture of it either... you wouldn't have a number of aspects of the clothing... you'd be missing a lot of the terminology... and many of the techniques would be removed as well.
Yep, you'd be missing the actual martial art techniques in many cases. No, I'm not kidding. Welcome to Japanese martial arts.
I'll give an example... I was teaching a Hanbo (three foot staff) technique last night... it's a fairly simple technique against a low strike to the body (which could also be a knife thrust, by the way), and the response is to strike down on top of the hand/wrist, then pull the staff back horizontally, in order to strike horizontally around to the side/back of the opponent. Okay, fairly simple... but, if it's a punch, is the arm still there for your strike down? And why a horizontal strike, when a thrust is right there, and easier to do? Well, it comes down to esoteric Shinto-ism.
The technique is from a branch of the Kukishin Ryu... who are famous for having, not just martial arts, but a family transmitted form of Shinto, called Nakatomi Shinto (not uncommon in Japanese arts). Within Shinto, there are concepts of protective spells and so forth, the best known being Kuji Kiri (nine syllable cutting), with the next level being Juji Kiri (ten syllable cutting)... with the "tenth syllable/character" being the spell being locked in in the first place. As a result, the striking method of the weapon is a vertical strike down, followed by a horizontal strike across... in Japanese, the character for "ten" (Ju - 十) is a cross... a vertical and horizontal line intersecting... which means that the technique is, not only a powerful way to strike, but a way of invoking a protective spell for your own well being when engaging in combat.
And, just in case you think this is an isolated case, the first kata in many sword systems, particularly Iai methods, follow the same idea... a horizontal cut, then a vertical one (sometimes multiples) with the same concept... the Iai methods of a number of arts (such as Katori Shinto Ryu) can also be used as a ritual for things like exorcism (Japanese, not Western), and so on. The footwork patterns of the kata of karate, TKD, and Chinese forms (such as Ba-gua) are also based in the same ideas... such as the trigrams used in both Korean and Chinese systems, linked with the I-ching (itself highly religious in it's base)... the use of particular fists has a similar idea behind it...
So, you understand, when I say that much of the art is removed once you remove all religious influence and aspects from these systems, and you're losing most of the art... leaving you with a shell...
In most cases, they aren't aware of what they would need to remove... they've taken out some of the overt symbolic aspects, but actually kept the parts that make it a Shinto influence/ritual... and simply deny what it is (either through lack of knowledge, or through arrogance that they even know what it is in the first place...). And I'm not making any kind of case for anything being "traditional"... I'm talking about the actual practice today. Now. Whether it's recognised or not.
That is a decision the individual needs to make... but nothing changes the fact that the ritual is a religious act and action. And again, if your religion forbids partaking in the practice of other religious rituals/behaviours, it's useful to be aware of it when you walk in.
I think you're getting it all backwards, there... a bow is used within Shinto, a bow is not Shinto... as far as names, different bows have different names, but really, that's fairly different...
Yep, agreed.
Regardless of anyone's personal religious beliefs, are you going to suggest that a Church is not a religious building except for Christians? A religious building is a religious building... maybe not your personal one, but it still is. You'd be hard pressed to not describe a synagogue, a mosque, a Buddhist Temple, a Shinto shrine, a Catholic Church, an abbey, a cathedral, a chapel as not being religious buildings, no matter what religion you particularly subscribe to (or not).
From there, it becomes a question of what the act of going to that religious building is for the individual... and that comes down to the internal belief system of the individual... but, nothing that the individual believes, thinks, feels, or understands changes the fact that the building is a religious structure, the activities that take place in that building are religious, and so on. In other words, you don't go to Church for a service, and expect it to be completely secular.
If you're not praying, you're not praying... so... okay... on the other hand, if you are taking part in communion, regardless of your thoughts, you are taking part in communion... a religious act is a religious act. Not praying is not partaking in it... not making it non-religious for you.
Again, I've never said anything about worship... you're thinking too "Western"... but yeah, many aspects of these arts are manifestations of Shinto (and Buddhist) concepts, ideas, teachings, and so on.
Going to the dojo is like going to Church... quite literally. It's a Buddhist word, after all... a Buddhist concept... a Buddhist location...
As to much of this, you're conflating your own beliefs and desires with what actually is. That's fine... it's common, really... but it doesn't change the reality of it all.
It has nothing to do with the way I "apparently (do it)", it has to do with what it actually is...
To deal with the PDF excerpt first... honestly, I don't agree with it. It's largely an apologetic piece working to deny the reality of the situation in order to make engaging in the actions more palatable for Westerners who were concerned about such issues.
That said, yeah, much of the religious aspects were not made clear at the least to Westerners training in the early days... whether that's it being "swept under the rug", or just not felt like it was required to be explained, as the influence was pretty obvious to all who grew up in the culture, is another question.
Yep, precisely. Although, I will say that I have been focusing on that for two reasons... one, it was the example given early in the thread of an example of potential religious action within the class, and two, it's a rather overt example, whereas much of the remainder is highly embedded, to the point that it's not noticed by large numbers of practitioners (such as my techniques examples earlier).
The rituals structure and symbolism, as well as various esoteria associated, are what makes them religious. Not the follower themselves. It's an important distinction to keep in mind.
Again, no. The religious ritual is a religious ritual regardless of who is performing it, and why.
I'm not sure what you're saying there... I feel some of those words should be "if", or "is".... but I'm not confident on your meaning. Can you clarify?
Well, yeah... that's what I was meaning when I kept saying that, no, I wasn't really talking about karate... that said, there is an amount of Shinto involved... as well as Taoism, Confucianism, and more...
While not taking much issue with many of that, I would ask if that is a rather long copy-paste from another (uncredited) source... if so, you may want to check the "fair use" clause on the TOS... this might not pass muster.
So here's the question, Steve (and Gerry... and, well, most here)... how are you agreeing that the religious act of engaging in taking communion, which can be stripped down to having a drink and a bite to eat, is something that is definitely a religious act, yet a specifically Shinto ritual, taking place in a building whose purpose is for the study of religious ways and methods, is not necessarily one just because you don't automatically conflate it with a religious ritual or location you're familiar with?
Yep, well... it's adapted, but it's certainly showing all the hallmarks of Shinto, so... yeah. It is. I might point out that a kamidana itself is not necessary for it to be Shinto, although it does make a central focal point, as well as basically screaming it out... by bowing to the front of the dojo (the kamiza... where the spirits [kami] sit), whether or not a shinzen or kamidana is present, it's still the same concept and idea.
I'd also point out that the very name of your system seems rather steeped in Buddhist thought... Seido - which refers to the "way of sincerity", or "the way of the true heart" is very much Buddhist in both the characters chosen and the intent behind each... which also matches the stated mission intent of the system, so you know...
Okay... but the point is that this is not the same thing at all... you're equating an action of Western respect for symbolic representations (the flag or president representing the country) with a Japanese action of religious reverence, and religious observance... they're not the same thing, despite some basic similarities.
Okay, not a problem with that either. Again, meditation, other than zazen with Zen Buddhism, can be religious or secular... so it's up to you what way you want to approach it. And that's been the whole point... even when the acts and rituals are religious, it doesn't mean you have to subscribe to the belief systems, just be aware of them when engaging in them... then choose how you want to partake.
Oh, but it's "mokuso" for mediation, for the record... meaning, quite literally, to "silence your thoughts"... so you're actually staying in exact lock-step with the intention there.
There's a difference here between something being interpreted as religious (in personal expression and involvement), and it being a specifically religious act.
You're only seeing one (overt) representation of the influence of Shinto, though... honestly, there's going to be a lot more than you think... as well as a fair bit from Buddhism as well (even more in Ueshiba's Aikido, obviously).
You're using a Western interpretation of religion there... not what is meant in a Japanese sense...
This is the point, though... the religious ceremony (Shinto) at the beginning of a class (and end), as well as the religious aspect of the building, the location, the original meanings, the terminology, and more, are there, whether you acknowledge them, partake in them, follow the beliefs, or not. You can partake in the ritual, and not have your heart in it... or you can have your heart in it... but that doesn't change what you're taking part in.
Similarly, wearing a yarmulke, whether you observe the religious significance or not, maintains it's religious significance... if it didn't, you wouldn't have put it on.
Bowing itself is very Japanese (and most of Asia, really)... not specifically Shinto... but Shinto bowing rituals are very much Shinto... obviously. As far as the aspects being used outside of their religious context, well, that's not really how it would be seen...
Shinto is in everything, in a Japanese sense... it's the oldest native religion in Japan, and was always very personalised (typically to a family, or group, hence the Kuki family having their own family line of Nakatomi Ryu Shinto mentioned above). It was only when Buddhism began to be introduced, and picked up momentum, that Shinto started to be somewhat formalised, with specific shrines being erected, and the addition of small shrines in peoples homes were added (as a reminder of Shinto in the face of the new imported religion). What that meant was that both Shinto and Buddhism were suddenly sitting side-by-side in people's homes and in the community, so the idea of observing both at the same time was just accepted without any problems...
At the end of the day, from a Japanese Shinto practice point of view, everything is Shinto... there is no "outside of the religious context", as the religious context is the entire world, and everyone (and everything) in it.
Yep, that's valid... but being aware of what is actually religious or not is important if such things are important to you, and your religious beliefs.
It's actually the other way around... the Japanese religious ideologies pervade the training... in more ways than people recognise...
Yes, again, that's one way to look at it... for Ueshiba, I feel that was more about being inclusive and spreading his art... but, at his heart, there was a lot of religious aspects throughout everything he did.
It's in line with many religious doctrines and teachings, frankly. And the idea that it's a purely Christian one is potentially a rather arrogant one, to my mind... after all, Ueshiba himself modelled much of his approach on his contact and immersion in the Omoto-kyo sect of Buddhism... and, when meeting the members of the Kukishin Ryu, with their practice firmly embedded in their Nakatomi Ryu Shinto, announced to the head of the system that his martial arts (spiritually) was that of the Kuki family (Shinto)...
Hmm... I'm not sure if I'm flattered or insulted by that... ha!
Yeah... no, they're not. You could argue that the basis of the physical techniques is primarily in body mechanics, as well as some aspects of physics, but that's it... and that's not what martial arts are about. Honestly, to me, reducing martial arts to a series of physical actions is to reduce a great meal to a few of it's ingredients...
At their heart, martial arts (talking specifically of Japanese here, as that's been the core of the comments I've been making... and is what is informing the religious aspects being discussed) are both political entities and religious observances. Many, if not the vast majority, of classical systems were set up around religious shrines and temples... they were as much religious offerings to the shrines as anything else (even to today... martial demonstrations in Japan are set up around being religious offerings presented to shrines and temples)... many arts techniques are based in religious ideas and concepts... so, in a very real way, many (most... almost all) martial arts are, ultimately, about religion. So you know.
That depends on the bow... but more importantly, that has been a big part of the point. It doesn't matter if they don't know the Shinto origin/meaning of the action, it is still Shinto... just unobserved as such.
We're not talking about history, though... we're talking about current martial arts, in current dojo, in the modern world... it's just that people don't understand much of what they're doing. By a similar token, performing a karate kata with no sense of the applications (bunkai, or any other term used) doesn't change the fact that the kata is still from whichever form of karate... but the person who is aware of it's applications (meanings, intent, history, breakdown etc) will get so much more out of it than someone who simply moves around in the same sequence.
Speaking hypothetically, based on the information given, probably not... to be honest, there seems to be little Christian added in... more the perceived aspects of Japanese religion, whether understood, recognised, or anything else, have been minimalised or removed. At most, there may be some prayer involved... which would be a yes on that count (obviously I haven't been to the class, so that is speculation).
It would mean that you were participating in Christian rituals... but that's about it. Actually being a Christian, if it's to mean anything, must mean that you are one even outside of the dojo, and when not training/engaging in the rituals. Same with the Shinto aspect... you would be participating in a Shinto ritual... to actually be an observer of Shinto is something much further down the trail.
If you're training in a specifically Christian school, where the tenets and beliefs of the school are based around the doctrine and beliefs held within that branch or sect of Christianity, and large parts of the syllabus/structure/organisation are geared up to be formally Christian... yet you leave off all the Christian aspects, the ritual, the influenced aspects of the training, then yeah, you'd probably only join in a small part of the actual school... which would be training in a shell of the art.
Ah, now this is interesting... must there be? Honestly, to my mind, yes, there must. Otherwise it's just violence. All warriorship cultures have had spirituality go hand in hand with the training of their warriors, whether it be the Massai of Africa with their manhood ritual and more, or the ancient Knights of Europe, most exemplified by the Brotherhood of the Poor Knights of the Temple of Solomon... or, to give the more common name, the Knights Templar... and so on and so forth. And the reason is pretty simple... the business of a warrior is to face their own potential death every day... as well as facing the idea of taking the life of another. That type of training and lifestyle must, if there's any sense of morality and human cost, spark a question of what happens at the onset of death... leading to a necessary spiritual introspection and questioning.
So, must it be Shinto if it came from Japan? Well, no... but then again, with the way Shinto is a part of much of everyday life, and is ever present, even at home, it's hard to avoid... is it the biggest influence on a particular system? Maybe, maybe not... Shorinji Kempo has it's spiritual core based in Buddhism (an interpretation of Shaolin teachings), from Doshin So (for the record, Shorinji Kempo is another modern art that is entirely based around religious teachings and spirituality).
Can it be replaced with, say, Christianity? Well, maybe... but you'll lose the whole idea of it being a Japanese art at that point... and it would require actually being able to identify the Shinto aspects in the first place... and, frankly, that's where it would fall down, I feel.
